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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why do People Hate OWPVP?

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  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

8/24/12 4:57:28 PM#121
Originally posted by Grixxitt

On another note, in OWPVP games you actually have a recourse to deal with griefers, and asshats in general. You just don't have these tools in non-pvp and restricted-pvp games.

IMO griefing is likely more common in your average themepark than your average FFA sandbox, even more so if repercussions have been put in place.

yes themeparks lack consequences, objectives and reason for world pvp, it is just random ganking randoms. Because of this owpvp will never work in themeparks.

  User Deleted
8/24/12 5:16:04 PM#122
Originally posted by Loke666
Originally posted by TdogSkal

Ganking and Gankers have made it so most do not like OWPvP its that simple.  Most people do not like being killed by a higher level who is bored and roaming a lower level zone for easy PvP kills.  Do not tell me this is rare, it is not.  Ganking is common in OWPVP. 

How did you not already know this answer? Its common sense.

I think it have at least as much to do with challenges.

For me to kill a noob offer no challenge and is boring, for me as a noob to be killed by a vet there is no challenge either since I die whatever I do.

And the problem with that is that the levelsystem splits up the playerbase into far to many groups to make good challenging PvP possible.

Ganking is common, but a lot of the gankers are as bored of the game as the people getting ganked all the time.

PvPmust be challenging, or it will be like running grey PvP content: a snorefeast. That some sociopaths live to gank is not the biggest problem since the rest of us only gets fun PvP against someone with the same level and similar gear.

Sandboxes usually are leveless and have a lot less focus on gear and lower gap between vets and noobs and that is why they pull it off better even if they can better themselves as well.

The only thing worse than something being way too hard is something being way too easy.

Exactly,like some PvP player starts to make threads about PvE players who only kill lvl1 wildlife.

Its not interesting,even  PvP ganker knows that,I hope.

 

 

 

  User Deleted
8/24/12 5:27:58 PM#123
Originally posted by Grixxitt

On another note, in OWPVP games you actually have a recourse to deal with griefers, and asshats in general. You just don't have these tools in non-pvp and restricted-pvp games.

IMO griefing is likely more common in your average themepark than your average FFA sandbox, even more so if repercussions have been put in place.

SO what recourse does a level 5 out minding his own business trying to level and do some gathering when some bored level 80 comes along an decides to ruin his game play.

 

 

Sorry I subscribe to the Fairness Doctrine and fact that your rights end when they interfere with mine.

  Prenho

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/29/12
Posts: 306

8/24/12 5:33:38 PM#124
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Grixxitt

On another note, in OWPVP games you actually have a recourse to deal with griefers, and asshats in general. You just don't have these tools in non-pvp and restricted-pvp games.

IMO griefing is likely more common in your average themepark than your average FFA sandbox, even more so if repercussions have been put in place.

SO what recourse does a level 5 out minding his own business trying to level and do some gathering when some bored level 80 comes along an decides to ruin his game play.

 

 

Sorry I subscribe to the Fairness Doctrine and fact that your rights end when they interfere with mine.

It's simple, this lvl 80 player will become pk, he will gain a certain amount of karma and his nick turns to color red and he can't enter cities or talk to npcs, he must kill mobs of his level until he cleans his karma and becomes a normal player again(white nick), but any other player can kill him and loot his items(any player can kill a pk without any problem the killer won't become pk and pk players drop items if they die, so the killer will have a chance to loot the gear or weapon from pk).

 

As I posted many times the system of Lineage:


Originally posted by Prenho

Themepark players never heard about pk and karma? Any sandbox focused in OW pvp-clan wars that wants to be decent use a pk system. Lineage 1 and Lineage 2 show this. Just add a pk system, there are 2 things to consider:

 

1 - PvP without war:

If player A wants to kill player B but player B is not at war with him(player B belongs to a clan that is not at war with player A clan, or simply doesn't belong to any clan).

Player A starts attacking, so his name changes from White(normal state) to purple(flagged state), so 2 things can happen depending if player B will react or not:

a - Player B doesn't react: if player B doesn't want to react and player A kills him, it means that he killed a player with white name(normal state), so player A will gain karma and his name will change to red color(it means that he became pk, pks are banned from towns, he can't enter cities or talk to npcs, and if someone dies while in pk state, he can lose some(or all) items(as his weapon or armor).

A pk player needs to kill monters of his gap of level until he cleans his karma and his name becomes white again. Anyone can kill a pk without worrying, pks can be killed and the killer won't become pk, just will have a change to loot some items from pk after killing him.

A(white name) atks B(white name) = A becomes purple name

A(purple name) kills B(white name) = A becomes red name(pk) gain karma because he killed a white name.

b - Player B reacts: player B decides to fight back, so player B will become a purple name too, both players are purple, so this fight will end up and nobody will become pk, because both players are flagged, the winner will just have to wait some time until his name turns white again.

A(white name) atks B(white name) = A becomes purple name

B(white name) atks back = B becomes purple name 

Both palyer are flagged, so it doesn't matter who wins, nobody will become pk because both players opened flag.

2 - PVP with war

Player A finds player B and he notices that player B belongs to a clan that is at war with his clan, in this case, the rule above does not work anymore, because both players are at war, so no matter if player A kills player B without player B reacts or not, you can kill him without worrying about becoming pk, the winner will gain pvp point and clan reputation(you can use special clan skills with reputation). So the players make their own alliances and enemies, while a poor faction game, there are only 2(or 3) factions.

 

 

  Naral

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/10
Posts: 751

8/24/12 5:37:34 PM#125
Originally posted by TheScavenger
I personally really  like open world PvP games. I remember going to Durotar, and tricking people to turn on their PvP and killing them over and over and over. This was a PvP server btw, but the low level zones were "safe" areas...but like EVE, nowhere is safe. It was hilarious the rage I would get in both chat and private messages lol...was so worth it :D

Behavior exactly like that is why people dislike OWPVP. Some like it, but the vast majority get really tired of this really quickly. The griefing is what kills it, not the actual pvp itself.

  Pratt2112

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1175

8/24/12 6:53:07 PM#126
Originally posted by dave6660

I think the more important question is why do people insist on playing OWPVP games knowing what they're getting into then complain about the ruleset?

Wouldn't it be silly if I played WoW and complained I have to fight computer controlled monsters.

That really isn't the "more important question". It's another question entirely.

I think many people like the idea of open world PvP, where you can fight people anywhere, anytime, instead of it being confined to instanced arenas or "designated world areas".

The problem, as has been noted by others in this thread, is not with open world PvP itself, but with a type of player it tends to attract  That type is the kind that doesn't enjoy open world PvP itself, they enjoy the freedom it gives them to be an a-hole to people who are far weaker than they are. They aren't interested in the challenge that world PvP can bring, they're only interested in the typical playground bully type of behavior we all witnessed in elementary school. They aren't "wolves". They aren't even "wolf pups". They're more like hyenas - only going after the weak and wounded - encounters they know they can win without any risk to themselves.

Their idea of "fun PvP" is ganking others where they have the clear advantage.

Turn the tables, and have someone stronger than them come to take them on and - every time - you'll see one of these three things happen:

1. They run away.

2. They force-log out of the game.

3. You drop them, and they proceed to whine and cry worse than the "carebears" they brag about "pwning".

I've had #3 happen to me personally several times in Lineage 2, TERA and a couple other MMOs. They're all big-mouthed and tough-talking 'til someone drops them. Then the floodgates are opened and the river of sore-loser tears starts flowing. I've had someone actually report me to a GM for "interrupting their gameplay and harassing them" after I dropped them. They had just spent the previous half hour, at least, ganking the same lowbies over and over in a starting area, and saw nothing wrong with that. I drop them once and they run straight to a GM to cry about it. Pretty hardcore, huh?

Less than an hour later, when they thought I was gone, they were back at it again.... so I dropped them again. They hurled a bunch of foul-mouthed and rather disgusting insults at me and then logged out.

The thing is... those are the people that ruin open world PvP for the rest. It's not "the carebears" that many PvPers are so quick to dismiss people as being. For every time a higher level player is able to catch and deal with a lowbie ganker/griefer, there are many more when those types are freely harassing and griefing new players to the point that they say "screw this" and find another game to play. While the gankers/griefers are pounding their chests over how hardcore they are for one-shotting players 20+ levels lower than themselves, the game itself is losing players.

So when people want to know why open PvP MMOs aren't more popular, don't blame the "carebears". Blame the ass-hats in your midst who are doing their best to drive new players from the game to stroke their own pathetic egos.

Someday, when PvP'ers:

1. Learn to understand the difference between real PvP and pointless ganking of someone who has no chance to survive or defend themself

2. Recognizes the damage it does to the game when new players are run off before they've even had a chance to really experience the game

3. Actually step up to deal with it instead of condoning it by beating their own chests saying "Hardcore PvP maaaan!"

...then maybe you'll start to see open world PvP become more popular.

'til then, it'll be the same thing every time.

 

 

"Devs need to stop trying to make MMOs for people who don't like MMOs" - thevampirelematt/Reddit

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 556

8/24/12 9:07:07 PM#127
Originally posted by Zylaxx
Originally posted by Grixxitt

On another note, in OWPVP games you actually have a recourse to deal with griefers, and asshats in general. You just don't have these tools in non-pvp and restricted-pvp games.

IMO griefing is likely more common in your average themepark than your average FFA sandbox, even more so if repercussions have been put in place.

SO what recourse does a level 5 out minding his own business trying to level and do some gathering when some bored level 80 comes along an decides to ruin his game play.

 

 

Sorry I subscribe to the Fairness Doctrine and fact that your rights end when they interfere with mine.

 

Levels? Really?

You're obviously thinking about a PvP server in a non-pvp game. Neither here nor there tbh.

 

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  Grixxitt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/12
Posts: 556

8/24/12 9:08:55 PM#128
Originally posted by Prenho
Originally posted by Grixxitt

On another note, in OWPVP games you actually have a recourse to deal with griefers, and asshats in general. You just don't have these tools in non-pvp and restricted-pvp games.

IMO griefing is likely more common in your average themepark than your average FFA sandbox, even more so if repercussions have been put in place.

yes themeparks lack consequences, objectives and reason for world pvp, it is just random ganking randoms. Because of this owpvp will never work in themeparks.

Agreed

The above is my personal opinion. Anyone displaying a view contrary to my opinion is obviously WRONG and should STHU. (neener neener)

-The MMO Forum Community

  Adamai

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/06/10
Posts: 467

8/27/12 7:23:19 AM#129
Open world pvp will never be fine unless there is mechanics built into the game to control it a little eve online. Reason is you get fucktards and griefers hanging around starter areas ganking new players and genrally griefing! If you stop these retards and impose a degree of mutual respect for fellow gamers enjoyment then open world pvp may work, thats why eve online has concord in start areas and the war declaration mechanics...... Because people are genrally vicious and vindictive by nature and do if they can, also other peole just like to play in peace and not worry about a random ass hat killing tbeir ass for no reason what so ever!


I beileve open world pvp servers should be heavily rp influenced and heavily policed with appropriate diplomacy mechanics in place toprevent randomannoying selfish arrogant god players
  coretex666

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1820

"I shall take your position into consideration"

8/27/12 7:37:45 AM#130

I really like OWPVP.

In Vanilla WoW, Tarren Mill vs. Southshore was my all time best MMO experience.

Using WoW as an example, ganking has never been a problem there. Of course I have been ganked several times during the years, but it never become so much of an issue that it would ruin my game experience. For me, the pros outweigh the cons.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  dominia

Carbuncle

Joined: 12/31/06
Posts: 192

8/29/12 7:07:15 PM#131

Again, I can't stress it enough...

 

More people wouldn't mind OWpvp if the risk v. reward was there.

 

Most games that try owpvp just mess that formula up.

Currently Playing: GW2
Retired: Shadowbane, DAoC, WoW, FFXI, Eve Online, SWToR

The Aphelion MMO Blog - GW2 Initial Impressions

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/29/12 8:45:58 PM#132
Originally posted by Kuppa

There are two types of pvpiers. Those that like balance and those that don't. Neither is wrong its just a matter of preference.

Those that like balance like the level playing field. I am more of a balance guy. I can see were a game based around open world pvp can be enjoyable though, like DayZ. But I utterly hate how most mmos do it. PvE and open world pvp just do not mix for me. And we all know why, ganking.

 

And then there is a big grey mass in between which can appriciate the different types of PvP in varying degrees. 

  Eberhardt

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 141

8/29/12 8:50:30 PM#133
I think griefing is the number one issue. While 10% enjoy OWPVP. There are the others that want nothing more than to make the lives of lowbies a living hell.
  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/29/12 9:00:36 PM#134
Originally posted by Weretigar

Hmmm, my thoughts on open world pvp. 

If my name didn't show up in bright red letters where someone could just hit tab and chase me down on some 210% flying mount, and I had an actual chance to escape even after dying once it  really wouldn't be a big deal. As long as I didn't lose anything. 

Thats why SWTOR was a good place for open world pvp, except now that it's bannable if you over 5 lvls which is silly because there's no risk involved at all. 

However I do not agree with the current version of dayz for many reasons. With the expliots ingame now a person could see you change servers respawn at higher ground and snipe you breaking the game's design and only you get punished. Now that is not for me. To many times you get an Alt-f4 or somone hacks to win against you to keep you from surviving. 

I liked other games take on OWPVP like Ro, or Lineage 2s because the weaker person could actually get away with luck. 

It all depends on the game and how it's setup. 

If everyone has a fair shake at get go then I'm all for OWPVP, howver if their are tons of exploits inviled so it's one sided w/ spawn camping with no end in sight (Ilum). Then I do have a problem with it.

 

I agree, the weaker person has to have a method to get away from combat or at least get revenge in a reasonable manner: such as  planning your traveling routes, planning escape routes,  being active in the community, keeping eye on surroundings etc. 

 

However, which Open PvP games do not give the weaker person that chance? I've played a few such as RF Online, Lineage II and Salem and in all of them the weaker target had a reasonable chance to get away and get payback.

 

 

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/29/12 9:07:45 PM#135
Originally posted by Quirhid

Well my own reasons would be:

Inaccessible. Going to places takes forever, and you almost always need a group to do anything worthwhile for fear of being ganked.

No challenge. I don't get anything out of ganking. Players that I may encounter may be

  • engaging PvE
  • be of lower level than me
  • be part of a smaller group than me

In none of those cases a smart enemy would not willingly fight me so thee run a way and I will be catching and killing them whenever I can just to relieve boredom, but I do not get any enjoyment out of it.

The power difference and size of groups also introduce a "non-skill factor" to the equation. They effectively diminish my ability to affect the outcome. It is out of my hands, and therefore I have no interest in the fight. I can't get a sense of accomplishment if I won due to one of the stated non-skill factors.

The nature of open world PvP is also the sort which puts a heavy emphasis on maneuvering pre-fight rather than the fight itself. Often the fight is merely a formality for the reasons stated before: player numbers and power difference. I have little interest in this shuffling, this "cat 'n' mouse game". It leads to combat as often as not, and even when things escalate to a battle, the outcome is often very underwhelming: the battle is one-sided and pre-determined.

TL;DR: Inaccessibility, no challenge, non-skill factors, and disappointing fights.

 

The psychological fights and schemes are indeed an important part of games with Open PvP, but yeah, if you dislike that aspect in games, Open PvP games wouldn't suit you. Open PvP is like you say much more than just about the physical combat itself.

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

8/29/12 9:10:16 PM#136

Ok , ALOT of people don't like OWPVP for the simple fact that when they are questing with friends they don't want a bunch of ass holes ruining their fun. Simple as 1+1=2.

 The only OWPVP meant for big boys and girls is EVE-Online , because let's face it , EVE is a sick game based on PvP. And with no "quests" or mob grinds to level up , it's the perfect set up for PvP , those who don't like to PvP don't play EVE-Online , they say they don't play because it's P2P , bullshit , they don't play because they are scared.  

 So yea OWPVP in a fantasy MMO is somewhat of a bad idea if your trying to attract a high playerbase , and when it comes to a B2P / F2P you need a high ammount of player base to keep that cash flow positive.   While a P2P like EVE-Online only need a few thousand K' of subs (Which they got well over 400K) to keep the game alive with numerous free Xpacs for a lifetime.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/29/12 9:15:02 PM#137
Originally posted by hardicon

I like open world pvp, in games where pvp was fun, it mattered and no matter what level or how many skill points you had, there was a chance you could win.

 

I loved open world pvp in asherons call.  once you got about level 50 there was a decent chance you could beat anyone if you knew what you were doing.  when you killed someone or you died you dropped items, there was a reason to pvp back then.  most games nowadays, what is the reason for pvp, there is not one.  in level based games its even worse, if a level 80 jumps on a level 70 then the level 70 is simply dead, the power gap is too large to compete in level based games so therefore it is not fun.

 

give me a game that makes pvp fun, like asherons call was and I will play it.  give me wow style open world pvp and ill pass.

 

You can win a "war" in many more ways than just "physically" personally beating the person.

  TwoThreeFour

Novice Member

Joined: 3/26/12
Posts: 2148

8/29/12 9:17:37 PM#138
Originally posted by SuprGamerX

Ok , ALOT of people don't like OWPVP for the simple fact that when they are questing with friends they don't want a bunch of ass holes ruining their fun. Simple as 1+1=2.

 The only OWPVP meant for big boys and girls is EVE-Online , because let's face it , EVE is a sick game based on PvP. And with no "quests" or mob grinds to level up , it's the perfect set up for PvP , those who don't like to PvP don't play EVE-Online , they say they don't play because it's P2P , bullshit , they don't play because they are scared.  

 So yea OWPVP in a fantasy MMO is somewhat of a bad idea if your trying to attract a high playerbase , and when it comes to a B2P / F2P you need a high ammount of player base to keep that cash flow positive.   While a P2P like EVE-Online only need a few thousand K' of subs (Which they got well over 400K) to keep the game alive with numerous free Xpacs for a lifetime.

 

If the ruleset allows to them to play villains, why would they be "assholes"? They are merely roleplaying a character role which is acceptable within the game rules.

 

I do understand though that certain people (maybe everyone from time to time?) sometimes just want to play a game without fearing hostile action from other players. They want to relax and do not want to feel paranoid all the time while playing the game. Completely understandable, but I just disagree with the notion of calling the players roleplaying villains "assholes". 

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3088

I am more than some of my parts

8/29/12 9:37:02 PM#139
Originally posted by Parasitenoir

Hey guys - (just to start so no flaming occurs) i will be playing gw2 so I am not a hater.  I just have a more general question.

 

Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

 

I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing .

 

what are peoples thoughts on this?

The answer to your question is the same answer for why people don't like to stand in elevators with someone that just crapped their pants.  Because some asshole ruins everything for everybody there.

 

I loathe OWPvP and my sentiments to the people that prefer it are about the same. If you wish that things turned out differently, take a look at yourself in the mirror then punch yourself in the face. There is nobody to blame but the people that "liked messing with someone's day"

 

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1134

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

8/29/12 9:44:42 PM#140
Originally posted by Eberhardt
I think griefing is the number one issue. While 10% enjoy OWPVP. There are the others that want nothing more than to make the lives of lowbies a living hell.

Well said:

 

Johny Griefer wakes up at the crack of noon, grabs his cereal box, a bowl and a jug of milk and logs into (x game).  He grinds up skills and abilities, gets in a few fights with some other Johny Griefers, maybe even makes a guild with them.  THat night, after Adam Adult logs in, it's already late.  He's put the kids to bed, helped the wife with stuff around the house and has prepped for work.  He finally has 1.5 precious hours to relax and play (x game).  There he is, the game's been out for a month, but man is he excited.  He read the reports at work about how great (x game is).  He gets his first quest or runs to a mob grind spot and bam, Johmnny Griefer is there and bored out of his mind - probably complaining about a lack of content as well.  He beats the crap out of Adam Adult for the entire 1.5 hours.  Adam Adult tries to stick through, hears people calling him a carebear, he's told that WoW is that way <-------------- and to quit and QQ.  Johny Griefer is finally having fun again - Adam Adult never logs in again and tells his wife that he's too old for gaming since he's now 25 with a kid.

 

See the point?  It's a niche audience, that's what Johny Griefer's game is.  There are married folk who do play these sorts of games - though they historically do not do well financially (not relevant)...but I guarantee that something is suffering in their home life in order for them to ever be able to get anything done in this sort of game.

 

/2 cents

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