I would say you're right, but that's not the problem being addressed. Granted it could just be my interpretation of it.

Like my previous post, and honestly that long winded PvP conversation I recall having with you previously. It's generally about consequences. People can accept that they are in a game where one PvPs well enough, but when there is constant death without consequence, or death that results only in ill consequence, then it is a problem.

It's nothing about people playing the victim. They can only do that if there are victims to be made. Which like you said is a situation that generally relies on not knowing the game you signed up for.

However. I have had conversation with you on the nature of Lineage 2 as well. Even got into the discussion about the major changes that translate between the eastern ans western versions of the game. Most notably the fact they had explicitly stated how they changed the game in response to the differences in how western players show less respect/regard for other players and how that made them seek to implement safeguards for lower level players that they said they previously simply didn;t need in the eastern version.

Which also ties back to my previous posts GIFT commentary.

Originally posted by Topherpunch

Originally posted by TheScavenger
I personally really  like open world PvP games. I remember going to Durotar, and tricking people to turn on their PvP and killing them over and over and over. This was a PvP server btw, but the low level zones were "safe" areas...but like EVE, nowhere is safe. It was hilarious the rage I would get in both chat and private messages lol...was so worth it :D

^ this is called griefing....

not against the rules....don't complain about it.....learn to counter. Old mmos had success in OPvP, cause the community managed it well and was very smart. You don't complain about it, you find a way to counter it aka deal with it. In life, are you just going to complain about your job or deal with it some how? Complaining does nothing whatsoever.

Originally posted by Jonoku

not against the rules....don't complain about it.....learn to counter. Old mmos had success in OPvP, cause the community managed it well and was very smart. You don't complain about it, you find a way to counter it aka deal with it. In life, are you just going to complain about your job or deal with it some how? Complaining does nothing whatsoever.

I'd argue this for two main reasons. 

One - It's fair to say the community now is different from the community then and as a result needs a different kind of ruleset, for better or worse.

Two - I can think of a few games that are xemplary OWPvP classic titles that had quite the range and shortfalls in community management. Notably I can refer to Asheron's Call that I mentioned before as well as Lineage 2 given the changes that game required to work for western culture in PvP.

Just as well you can end up having other examples such as in Ultima Online. A great example being that dude that killed Lord British.

Or in Asheron's Call my previous mention of people camping most portal locations. Additionally you easily ended up with people who just formed arbitrary headhunting groups.

Now, there was some examples of policing as well. My brother inspired a lovely guild dedicated to just hunting him down for his griefing exploits in that game. ('I Hate Ima' guild on Darktide PvP server, his character was named 'Ima Dork') But like any modern game this was not necessarily the norm.

A recent example being a thread mentioning the attempts at community trying to regulate players in EVE. Apparently it meets pretty minimal success external to corp internal regulation and there's only a few small places in null-sec that gets moderately regulated by dedicated groups, who still often get trolled and facerolled by larger corps that couldn't give a damn.

And that would be the crux of the problem, how much does the community care as a whole how the rest of the community behaves. Also why I keep citing thew GIFT problem. Nostaliga aside, modern community definitely differs in some important ways as it has grown, and that greatly affects the quality and manner in which PvP and most other gameplay aspects need to be conducted.

Originally posted by GeezerGamer

When I want to PVP, I PVP. When I don't want to PVP, I don't PVP.

That is perfectly fine but it has no relevance to OWPvP itself, unless there are no PvE servers. I'm saying this since some people think there shouldn't be OWPvP (i.e. PvP servers) and that is just selfish.

I like to play on a PvE server (and I have done quite a bit of PvP) but I also like that the game has OWPvP for the PvP crowd, otherwise the game will only consist of PvE servers and that is a bit dull tbh (it also give me the option to roll an alt on a PvP server just for fun and no pressure to progress my character like the PvE server based ones).

OWPVP is just another way to say Gankfest-  "IF" the higher level

players playe'd their level -it's fun ! But when they think PVP is

killing greys endlessly- no thanks. And that's what grief gankers like.

Now if each area had players scale'd down to the level of the area

like G2 ,then challenge has been put back into OWPVP -that should

be the direction of owpvp// imo.

Open world PvP is for those who like games of war, for those who like to challenge themselves against other players. War is nasty, brutal and often unfair, it's about the survival of the fittest, if you find yourself in a fair fight then your tactics suck.

Not everyone is tempramentally suited to playing them and so if they aren't, they shouldn't play them.

The people who try them and can't cope are unable to accept that they are not suited to the game and need to believe that the concept of the game is flawed to avoid the truth that it is they who couldn't adapt.

Population size is no guide to the quality of a game or its gameplay, you don't see Dan Brown winning literary awards yet his sales are massive. OWPvP will never be as popular as PvE due to its less casual nature and the need for the right kind of player mentality to cope.

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Originally posted by RefMinor
Open world PvP is for those who like games of war, for those who like to challenge themselves against other players. War is nasty, brutal and often unfair, it's about the survival of the fittest, if you find yourself in a fair fight then your tactics suck.

Not everyone is tempramentally suited to playing them and so if they aren't, they shouldn't play them.

The people who try them and can't cope are unable to accept that they are not suited to the game and need to believe that the concept of the game is flawed to avoid the truth that it is they who couldn't adapt.

 

Population size is no guide to the quality of a game or its gameplay, you don't see Dan Brown winning literary awards yet his sales are massive. OWPvP will never be as popular as PvE due to its less casual nature and the need for the right kind of player mentality to cope.

 

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Originally posted by lizardbones
Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?

Nope. Egos are rampant in MMOs, though it doesn't make me any less annoyed by them.

When the players in open world pvp are evenly matched its one thing , The problem in most games is they have levels in some way be it skill level or actualy levels like a level 85 

The problem is that most times open world pvp means i wanna gank 20s while they quest on my max level character knowing they cant hurt me and i wont get any punishment for doing so. 

I hated it in wow. If im trying to quest and a max level not only kills me which once i can handle but camps my dead body so i cant play anymore its a problem and is why i hate open world pvp , If it wasnt for people like that open world pvp woudl be fun condequences or not.

Mostly because it leads to ganking, bullying, and unruly playground behavior.   And because most of us are past first grade.

Originally posted by Parasitenoir

Why is it that people do not like true open world pvp, where you can gank anyone while they are questing etc.  I enjoyed it in wow while it existed (vanilla-slightly BC), Rift was good, and currently gaming in Tera.

Is it the annoyance of being ganked and not being able to defend yourself.  Does it provide to much of a challenge.  Or is our generation just lazy and prefer to sit in a town and just que for stuff.

While fear of getting killed might be part of the reason, it is not the majority of it.

I think the main reason is - it is a game. A lot of the people who don't like pvp just consider ganking as stress and don't want to deal with is (and that's the majority of people mind you, as there is always more pvers than pvpers)

You got to understand that having to watch one's back all the time is not everyone's cup of tea. In fact, for hardcore pvpers it is not always their cup of tea either - sometimes ppl just want to sit back, grind crafting and watch tv at the same time; or they don't have time to sit down for long sessions of ganking and revenge fights. Which both are quite understandable, especially if you are older and has more RL responsibilities that might call you away from games suddenly sometimes.

I think, as pvper myself, we got to be more open-minded about this.

Well it depends. I like Open World PvP myself a lot when it comes to factions. It gives some competition and makes things interesting. I completely despise it when its just free kill every man for themselves. It quickly kills the game to me and just makes things difficult to deal with. Yes, gankers exist on faction games but pretty much your left to flail around when some no skill jack off decides to rip you apart because he feels the need to get his kicks on someone not able to stand a chance. Without factions, this can turn quickly into 'group of friends' doing this which ends up causing more trouble since there is no faction to rally behind.

Over-all, my biggest concern with Open World PvP comes to balance. On Rift, I have played on many heavily imbalanced servers of guardian verse defiant (Defiants love the zergs to hide lack of skill :) ) still, even in those cases a good few could do things to overcome this and in many cases a group of a few were able to kill many of the other faction. Still, this isn't always possible and this can become an issue.

This is further made worst (to me) by gankers. I enjoy being 'ganked' when it comes to people in my level range, what I find lame is those no skilled jack holes coming at me with a huge level advantage. Yes, its partly due to the fact that (prepare for incoming cockiness) I'm a good player and vastly better then most gankers, but even if its a situation not in my favor (aka on rift Dom vs Warrior, granted warrior could be replaced by any class nearly (Aka trion balance damn mages already so dom isn't the strongest thing in game and other mage speccs can be viable in exchange) ) I really don't mind it. Its just those gank situation with a high level verse low level that I find dispicable and general where a simple gank  becomes a grief fest of purposely giving the player no chance to play.

Originally posted by Gurpslord

The answer, in my opinion, is already in your original post.  The word gank.  May be fun for the jerk nozzles doing the ganking, not always so hawt for the people getting ganked.  If you're allowing a big part of your playerbase to be griefed like that openly then that playerbase goes somewhere else.

 

Why do people not like it?  I know I don't like it because it's not in my plan.  If I want to go out and do this quest, check out that area, etc etc.  That's what I want to do.  I don't want to have to fight every larry curly and moe along the way who thinks they're awesome or trying to take the stress out of their sad lives by being big bullies in a video game.

I'm sure there are games that support open world pvp as a big deal, at least there should be, it's definitely got a big enough following, but it has no place in a game like GW2 really.  Just my two cents tho.

Its a game called Guild Wars. The very name of the game is about players fighting players? There is definately a place for it in a game like Guild Wars.

Originally posted by Yizle

Originally posted by Gurpslord

The answer, in my opinion, is already in your original post.  The word gank.  May be fun for the jerk nozzles doing the ganking, not always so hawt for the people getting ganked.  If you're allowing a big part of your playerbase to be griefed like that openly then that playerbase goes somewhere else.

 

Why do people not like it?  I know I don't like it because it's not in my plan.  If I want to go out and do this quest, check out that area, etc etc.  That's what I want to do.  I don't want to have to fight every larry curly and moe along the way who thinks they're awesome or trying to take the stress out of their sad lives by being big bullies in a video game.

I'm sure there are games that support open world pvp as a big deal, at least there should be, it's definitely got a big enough following, but it has no place in a game like GW2 really.  Just my two cents tho.

Its a game called Guild Wars. The very name of the game is about players fighting players? There is definately a place for it in a game like Guild Wars.

War is not the same thing as open world ganking. War is between 2 or more factions, groups or in this case, guilds. Don't confuse war with random lowbie hunting please.

Originally posted by DeivosMost notably the fact they had explicitly stated how they changed the game in response to the differences in how western players show less respect/regard for other players and how that made them seek to implement safeguards for lower level players that they said they previously simply didn;t need in the eastern version.

 

 

Interesting point which goes back to a lineage 2 issue with a siege boss. I don't remember how it was implemented but the story goes that there was a siege where some sort of boss was summoned or it was by a siege? Well "whatever"...

Some people lured it to town and it destroyed many of the players and stores.

When asked why the developers didn't place safeguards for this type of thing the developers told the CM that "we never have that problem because the eastern players are too busy sieging."

On hindemith, for quite a while, when a disliked clan took a castle and if they kept that castle, the server would sometimes rise up and remove them.

It happened several times. It was one of the best things about that server. Slowly but surely that died out as players left the game.

Originally posted by Sovrath

When asked why the developers didn't place safeguards for this type of thing the developers told the CM that "we never have that problem because the eastern players are too busy sieging."

This is true.

From my experience Oriental cultures has less of this type of trollish behaviour - where someone does something that just flat out harm others but do not benefit themselves.

Might have something to do with the difference in value system between Eastern and Western societies. In eastern societies this type of behaviour is believed to be not just tools but actually "stupid", as in mentally disability stupid, because it doesn't benefit them - to the Eastern way, If it doesn't make money/gain power, it is a waste of time.

Originally posted by Yizle

Its a game called Guild Wars. The very name of the game is about players fighting players? There is definately a place for it in a game like Guild Wars.

Funny, never engaged in PvP or joined a Guild in all the time I played Guild Wars.

Go figure.

"I personally like the OWPVP and being able to mess with someones day while there gathering, questing whatever there doing ."

you answer the question yourself you dont want pvp you want to destroy a funny gaming day of another person and thats why the other person most likely dont want open pvp for that reason.

Originally posted by lizardbones

Does anyone else notice how players will often use terms that make themselves sound tougher or better than other players? Especially when talking about a preference for features? It's often phrased in a way to sound reasonable, but it is really just a way to say, "Playing a game with feature X makes me better than you". Is that just me?

 

All I know is I'm obviously a better player than anyone who plays themepark MMOs.  And I'm definitely more skilled, because everyone knows the games I play take more skill.