Trending Games | Marvel Heroes | Elder Scrolls Online | Guild Wars 2 | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,736,120 Users Online:0
Games:712  Posts:6,173,639
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » EA officially determines sub based games are dead.

13 Pages First « 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » Last Search
257 posts found
  User Deleted
8/22/12 4:11:18 PM#121

*EA officially determines sub based games are dead.  SIMULATOR v0.4*

1.You are walking in the forest and you bumb into some invisible force.

2. You get a message " You must buy next area if you wish  to continue"

3. you wonder,wee whatta heck,i will build a camp and hunt some animals.

4. You start reaching your axe because you need it to cut some trees,your hand bumbs into some invisible force.

5.You get a message "you cant use this epic item ,you must upgrade your account if you wish to use it"

6. You think,should i play sub based games or free to play™ games?

 

 

i dont think sub based games goes away ever,heck theres still MUD running with something like 40$ per month,but something might chance like if i log into game then I get that message to my cell phone "you logged in" and when i log out i will get message that i logged out,and they charge me precisely of the time i used to play,or something like that.

 

  User Deleted
8/22/12 4:14:40 PM#122

I'd say he's right, very few games can compete with a P2P model...and that's not even to say that certain games can't exist in that model, Not sure if I remember exactly, but I remember turbine saying they quadruppled their profits when LOTRO went f2p...probably off but yea, F2P is a major cash cow. 

 

Honestly, while RIFt seems to be doing good, part of me thinks their insane for not maximixing profits, I wouldn't be surprised if they announced a f2p plan soon...they're nuts...simply too much money involved in F2P. If I were their publisher, I'd be stranggling somebody while yelling "I WANT MONEYYYY!!!!111". 

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4388

It's a combination of Nightingale Armor with the Mod Truebound Deadric Armors

8/22/12 4:18:18 PM#123


Originally posted by kalrhael
I'd say he's right, very few games can compete with a P2P model...and that's not even to say that certain games can't exist in that model, Not sure if I remember exactly, but I remember turbine saying they quadruppled their profits when LOTRO went f2p...probably off but yea, F2P is a major cash cow. 

 

Honestly, while RIFt seems to be doing good, part of me thinks their insane for not maximixing profits, I wouldn't be surprised if they announced a f2p plan soon...they're nuts...simply too much money involved in F2P. If I were their publisher, I'd be stranggling somebody while yelling "I WANT MONEYYYY!!!!111". 


But maybe they also believe that a loyal customer base is not to be toyed with. Rift is in a precarious balance. They seem to be doing well, but not phenomenal.

Also, they have the game EoN coming out that will tap that market.

Recently started playing SWTOR. I am posting updates to my experience in this thread:
SWTOR Experience

  azmundai

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1422

8/22/12 4:19:43 PM#124


Originally posted by Kyleran
They've misunderstood their exit interviews.  They assume that 40% won't pay a subscription, I maintain most of them will (since it really is a small amount of money) if the content is worth the buyers time.

Apparently they failed to deliver on engaging long term content, but don't seem to realize it yet.

Don't worry, when people don't stick around for the F2P version either, they'll understand the real issue.

 


No they won't .. thier prance some dude up on moneyline and declare the mmo genre to be incapable of turning a profit.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

8/22/12 4:27:39 PM#125
Originally posted by lifeordinary

According to EA's own statement they had around 500K players when they announced F2P model. So their decision to go F2P has more to do with taking advantage of this model than SWTOR not having enough players to support it in P2P category.

EA knows that they can easily hit 1 mill playerbase by going F2P. it has the playerbase who won't mind payign monthly subs at the same time there is huge market of those players who like F2P games.

I would say EA is very clever and companies like Trion too should follow EA and go F2P while keeping monthly sub option on for those who prefer it.

I hate to burst your bubble there, but according to EA's own public statements,  500K subscription sustained was the MINIMUM required for TOR to break even. Outside analysts had placed it even higher (some even more then TWICE that amount). Given that, the trend in thier subscription numbers had been sharply declining and it's unkown where it would have bottomed out...... the decision to go F2P in this case is nothing to do with cleverness....it's simple damage control and desperation.

They are trying to salvage what they can. Furthmore 1 million players at $7.50 per month would put TOR significantly worse off then 500K players at $15 per month.

It's Operations 101 for any service based offering (which is what MMO's are). Each USER/PLAYER you have is a COST to you. It's only when that user is making more PURCHASES each month then they cost to keep, that you gain a proffit. You can gain some economies of scale but a large number of operatings costs are inelastic beyond a certain minimal threshold. Basicaly that means you've got to find a way to cut your COSTS per user, often by cutting/reducing your level or quality of service, and hope you get such a big increase in volume that it more then makes up for the higher markup you would have gotten at $15 per month. Clearly that CAN work (and some supposed "F2P" offerings may even be able to push thier average gross revenue higher then $15 per user) but by no means is it a sure thing.

  Ezhae

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/03/06
Posts: 734

8/22/12 4:27:57 PM#126
Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Wellto play the devil's advocate. If TOR would launch as F2P titles the expectations would be considerabely lower. It would mean that it could actually have higher retention rate due to simple price:value ratio. Also there is actually quite a lot of people willing to pay more in form of micro transactions that a monthly sub would cost them, and they in part offset all those that only play F2P. 

Further more, if they would create a good F2P model, something similar to say DDO with passes for content, etc. and then also offer weekend sales for specific content they could actually make decent money with much lowe backlash from community. 

 

For WoW. 4 to 5 million come from asian market that has different business model (pay per hour). Majority of western subscriptions, at this point are mostly things people do because they've been doing it for so long stopping would feel like waste. They stick around for friends, etc. and once you invested say 300-450$ into it in sub alone (2-3 years) that's the money you ain't getting back. 

Currently, to release a sub based game you really need something big. Something that would truly change the mmo landscape for better and would build it's playerbase up rather than just pushing all effort on first week sales. 

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

 
OP  8/22/12 4:30:02 PM#127
Originally posted by Iselin

 I see many posts here and elsewhere that link monthly updates to the monthly sub. Trying to figure out if they got their money's worth this month. That's new thinking. WOW spent many years doing virtually nothing month to month other than the seasonal events and not many were bitching about the sub cost. But times changed and now we're expecting to see something tangible for our $180/year.

 

The box-cost-only GW2 model just highlights the inherent problem with the monthly sub model... it makes it seem like a greedy, money-grubbing system... which it is.

That's pretty much revisionist history. Vanilla WoW put out a decent ammount of content. The content released did a decent job of pacing with the players level progression. Call it gear grind or what you will, but they were tweaking their battlegrounds, releasing new 5 (and for a while 10) man instances, adding 40 and 20 man raids, adding tons of gear, quests, reputation factions, etc.

SWTOR had a dismal record of releasing new content. A pittance of gear, 1 warzone and 1 raid in 10 months. That's it. What's more, progressing in SWTOR was much faster (blame casualization if you want). It was extremeley easy to find yourself essentially done with the all the games content in about a month.

Love WoW, hate it; Vaniila WoW players were seeing much more content for their $15 a month then 8 years later with SWTOR. (The WoW expansions are a related but a bit of a different topic.)

The Guild Wars Buy to Play model is intresting. They proved it could work with their heavily instances first title. Things look promising for their second, this time fully fledged MMO title. The long term success can only be determined by how well their expansions sell and are received. The B2P model is certainly different then the P2P monthly sub model but it has a lot more in common with it then the FTP/Freemium/P2W models.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

8/22/12 4:31:04 PM#128
Originally posted by kalrhael

I'd say he's right, very few games can compete with a P2P model...and that's not even to say that certain games can't exist in that model, Not sure if I remember exactly, but I remember turbine saying they quadruppled their profits when LOTRO went f2p...probably off but yea, F2P is a major cash cow. 

 

Honestly, while RIFt seems to be doing good, part of me thinks their insane for not maximixing profits, I wouldn't be surprised if they announced a f2p plan soon...they're nuts...simply too much money involved in F2P. If I were their publisher, I'd be stranggling somebody while yelling "I WANT MONEYYYY!!!!111". 

What Turbine's PR mouthpiece say's means nothing. It's what's actualy on thier books that matters....and only WB knows that for sure at this point....beyond that, it's about as reliable as asking Bahgdad Bob how the War is going.

  SuperXero89

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/09
Posts: 2605

8/22/12 4:31:26 PM#129

The subscription model isn't dead, but if the game charges a subscription, it better damn well be worth it.  Realistically, the only games available today that are actually worth a subscription are EVE and WoW.  For other games, it's a lot easier to look past their shortcomings when they're not forcing players to fork over 15 dollars a month.  By itself, 15 dollars isn't a lot of money, but if you can play a game like AION or Lineage 2 without spending a bit of money in the cash shop, you're saving 180 dollars a year.  Even if you play games with more restrictive F2P options, you can still wind up spending a lot less in any given year.  

 

  waynejr2

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3705

RIP City of Heroes!

8/22/12 4:42:00 PM#130
Originally posted by Kyleran

They've misunderstood their exit interviews.  They assume that 40% won't pay a subscription, I maintain most of them will (since it really is a small amount of money) if the content is worth the buyers time.

Apparently they failed to deliver on engaging long term content, but don't seem to realize it yet.

Don't worry, when people don't stick around for the F2P version either, they'll understand the real issue.

 

The problem with that line of thinking is that it could turn out to be magical thinking.  Like the myth of willpower, if only the game had this [black box] of features that were good enough that people would sub for it then people would sub for it.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1835

8/22/12 4:42:52 PM#131
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Creslin321

EA with Sports video games.

Apple with MP3 players and tablets.

Firaxis with 4X strategy games.

NFL with professional football.

Sooo...when doing analysis on any of the markets above, should I just ignore the clearly dominant player, because they are "an outlier?"

With the exception of Applie, I am not versed in any of those other markets so how can I?  Also, what point am I avoiding?  You're the one arguing WoW dominates the market due to its superiority (which you paralleled with Microsoft).  I don't agree with that reasoning.  It's very naive to believe something succeeds as a business purely because it offers a superior product.

If this is the case, how do you explain VHS beating out Betamax for one?  That's besides the point, but I don't see what point I am avoiding.  You and I have very opposing views.  What else is there to discuss?  If GW2 doesn't do as well as you have touted, will you do a reversal and say it failed because it was poorly designed?  Do you always NEED to be on the winning team?

 I never said that.

That is a strawman argument.  All I said was that I don't think the business model was the primary reason SWTOR failed.  That does not translate to highlighted above. 

I'm not going to respond to your VHS/Betamax thing because that is just more strawman.  And as for the GW2 thing, if it doesn't do well, and I think it is poorly designed, then yes I will say that.  If I think it was well designed, then I will state whatever reason I think it did poorly...maybe it was the cash shop, maybe it was lack of marketing, all hypothetical.  You have to analyze things on a case by case basis.  And in the case of SWTOR, I think the business model had little to do with its failure.

And as for "what's my point..."  My point is that you can't ignore the dominant player in an industry when analyzing that industry because it's an outlier.  That's stupid.  That's ignoring THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER.  This isn't one dude out of 2 million that is 8.5 feet tall.  This is one company that owns like eighty percent of the market.  Get the difference?

 

Your examplifying the viability of the entire P2P model based off the success of one product!  Everything else that has tried to follow that same model has by all approximations FAILED to compete with that product in numbers or success.  You are attritubuting that success due to "people think(ing) WoW is a superior product." "I believe that when you have a product, but there exists a similar, but superior product already on the market..." the other product fails, WoW being implied as the superior product:

"So basically, I think WoW has everything to do with the "sub model being dead" for other games.  It's not that the sub model is dead...it's just that hardly any of them are good/different enough to compete directly with WoW"

There is no strawman argument here.  I am just trying to understand your line of thinking, a thinking obviously severely affected by the Bandwagon Effect.

By your thinking, Stephen King is the greatest author to ever live and the Toyota Corolla the best manufactured car.  Afterall, they are the best selling of their respective markets.

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

8/22/12 4:43:30 PM#132
Originally posted by tiefighter25

In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.

 Depends on how you look at it.

If you look at it from a closed minded, narrow, ignorant view...it doesnt look dead.

If you look at it from a world view, it is.

The F2P market is far larger than the sub market. The amount of F2P games that have broken the 5 million playerbase is double that of the sub market (wow and gw) and the amount of F2P games that have broken the 1 million player mark greatly exceeds that of the sub market. Then if you throw in the freemium games...the F2P/freemium market has a far far greater playerbase than the sub game market.

Now throw in games like D3, browser based, facebook online games...the F2P field is taking over and its far easier for companies to make money with them, than with a sub. Any game that starts out with a F2P with a shop mindset has a far greater chance of succeeding than going sub. The sheer size of the bigger F2P companies is proof of that...I mean come ON companies making games like Atlantica Online is posting better profits with F2P games than some of the bigger gaming companies out there...lol...get with the times.

From a business standpoint it looks like this.

Charge a subscription for $14.95 a month to a possible 12-15 million consumers which you have next to no chance of getting half of and if you get 1/10th of them you did something special or...

Create a shop with microtransactions to a possible 40+ million consumers, odds of success is high, chance of getting multiple transactions is great and profitability is near impossible not to achieve.

Then again, there are the freemium games, being run by moronic companies like Funcom where they are ignorant of what the word microtransactions means and somehow manage to drive away their newest consumer target with high prices...

  ktanner3

Master

Joined: 3/19/06
Posts: 4142

Trolls will be ignored

8/22/12 4:54:01 PM#133
So EA had this "epiphany" right after release? RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT................................

Currently Playing: Star Wars The Old Republic

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 1835

8/22/12 4:57:35 PM#134
Originally posted by ktanner3
So EA had this "epiphany" right after release? RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT................................

No, obviously they are spinning this in their favor.

But I happen to agree with the statement .

Release a game with a very large established fanbase from 10+ years of bnet history when the market was still emerging and the casual base had not yet been established, thus ripe for harvesting a momentious self perpetuating playerbase people never leave because they have X hours invested in their characters, and their friends and everyone else plays anyway. Not discounting Blizzard quality... but WoW's success is as much about perfect timing as it is quality, if not more so. - Derros

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

8/22/12 4:58:36 PM#135
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by tiefighter25

In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.

 Depends on how you look at it.

If you look at it from a closed minded, narrow, ignorant view...it doesnt look dead.

If you look at it from a world view, it is.

The F2P market is far larger than the sub market. The amount of F2P games that have broken the 5 million playerbase is double that of the sub market (wow and gw) and the amount of F2P games that have broken the 1 million player mark greatly exceeds that of the sub market. Then if you throw in the freemium games...the F2P/freemium market has a far far greater playerbase than the sub game market.

Now throw in games like D3, browser based, facebook online games...the F2P field is taking over and its far easier for companies to make money with them, than with a sub. Any game that starts out with a F2P with a shop mindset has a far greater chance of succeeding than going sub. The sheer size of the bigger F2P companies is proof of that...I mean come ON companies making games like Atlantica Online is posting better profits with F2P games than some of the bigger gaming companies out there...lol...get with the times.

From a business standpoint it looks like this.

Charge a subscription for $14.95 a month to a possible 12-15 million consumers which you have next to no chance of getting half of and if you get 1/10th of them you did something special or...

Create a shop with microtransactions to a possible 40+ million consumers, odds of success is high, chance of getting multiple transactions is great and profitability is near impossible not to achieve.

Then again, there are the freemium games, being run by moronic companies like Funcom where they are ignorant of what the word microtransactions means and somehow manage to drive away their newest consumer target with high prices...

This is part of the basic misunderstanding of the "Free" services model....and believe me, alot of services have gone bankrupt because of it.

Under the "Free" services model...the number of users/players does NOT EQUAL the amount of revenue. USERS/PLAYERS are a COST to you. It's only when you convert those users/players to PAY for something in your service that they become revenue. If you don't find a way to monetize enough of your users/players to a sufficient degree, the only thing have a larger user base will get you is an increased operating DEBT.

Now, clearly it IS POSSIBLE to run a proffitable service under that model...as there are companies doing it. However finding a way to sufficiently monetize your user base is by no means as simple and certain as it sounds....and there are alot of failed enterprises (mostly outside the MMO sphere) to give testimony to that.

One thing every person involved in this sort of discussion should try to keep in mind is that a company with only 10 CUSTOMERS can actualy be significantly more PROFFITABLE then a company with 40 million USERS.

  Kiljaedenas

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 459

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

8/22/12 5:00:16 PM#136
Originally posted by tiefighter25

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/22/ea-coo-maintains-confidence-in-bioware/

According to EA the sub based model is dead. Perhaps this occured on Feb. 29th of 2012? In which case leap years are bad for sub based MMO's? I'm not sure, EA didn't go into details but they have exit surveys which definitively proove their assertion.

In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.

Those moronic twats...people will pay for a full subscription game if the game is GOOD. If a game is sub based and has very little to offer above another game that is F2P, people probably aren't going to play it.

Where's the any key?

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

8/22/12 5:02:32 PM#137
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Creslin321

EA with Sports video games.

Apple with MP3 players and tablets.

Firaxis with 4X strategy games.

NFL with professional football.

Sooo...when doing analysis on any of the markets above, should I just ignore the clearly dominant player, because they are "an outlier?"

With the exception of Applie, I am not versed in any of those other markets so how can I?  Also, what point am I avoiding?  You're the one arguing WoW dominates the market due to its superiority (which you paralleled with Microsoft).  I don't agree with that reasoning.  It's very naive to believe something succeeds as a business purely because it offers a superior product.

If this is the case, how do you explain VHS beating out Betamax for one?  That's besides the point, but I don't see what point I am avoiding.  You and I have very opposing views.  What else is there to discuss?  If GW2 doesn't do as well as you have touted, will you do a reversal and say it failed because it was poorly designed?  Do you always NEED to be on the winning team?

 I never said that.

That is a strawman argument.  All I said was that I don't think the business model was the primary reason SWTOR failed.  That does not translate to highlighted above. 

I'm not going to respond to your VHS/Betamax thing because that is just more strawman.  And as for the GW2 thing, if it doesn't do well, and I think it is poorly designed, then yes I will say that.  If I think it was well designed, then I will state whatever reason I think it did poorly...maybe it was the cash shop, maybe it was lack of marketing, all hypothetical.  You have to analyze things on a case by case basis.  And in the case of SWTOR, I think the business model had little to do with its failure.

And as for "what's my point..."  My point is that you can't ignore the dominant player in an industry when analyzing that industry because it's an outlier.  That's stupid.  That's ignoring THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER.  This isn't one dude out of 2 million that is 8.5 feet tall.  This is one company that owns like eighty percent of the market.  Get the difference?

 

Your examplifying the viability of the entire P2P model based off the success of one product!  Everything else that has tried to follow that same model has by all approximations FAILED to compete with that product in numbers or success.  You are attritubuting that success due to "people think(ing) WoW is a superior product." "I believe that when you have a product, but there exists a similar, but superior product already on the market..." the other product fails, WoW being implied as the superior product:

"So basically, I think WoW has everything to do with the "sub model being dead" for other games.  It's not that the sub model is dead...it's just that hardly any of them are good/different enough to compete directly with WoW"

There is no strawman argument here.  I am just trying to understand your line of thinking, a thinking obviously severely affected by the Bandwagon Effect.

By your thinking, Stephen King is the greatest author to ever live and the Toyota Corolla the best manufactured car.  Afterall, they are the best selling of their respective markets.

WOW is hardly the only product to have made a proffit off of the subscription model and it is not the only one doing so currently.

 

 

  Kakkzooka

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/06/11
Posts: 602

8/22/12 5:03:31 PM#138

Make a game worth subbing to . . . people will subscribe to it.

 

Make a piece of shit game solely with the intent of a quick cash grab; smart people will warn others to stay away from it and people won't sub to it.

 

Why is WoW still a viable subscription game? Because Blizzard initially made a quality game.

Re: SWTOR

"Remember, remember - Kakk says 'December.'"

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

 
OP  8/22/12 5:04:11 PM#139
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by tiefighter25

In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.

 Depends on how you look at it.

If you look at it from a closed minded, narrow, ignorant view...it doesnt look dead.

If you look at it from a world view, it is.

The F2P market is far larger than the sub market. The amount of F2P games that have broken the 5 million playerbase is double that of the sub market (wow and gw) and the amount of F2P games that have broken the 1 million player mark greatly exceeds that of the sub market. Then if you throw in the freemium games...the F2P/freemium market has a far far greater playerbase than the sub game market.

Now throw in games like D3, browser based, facebook online games...the F2P field is taking over and its far easier for companies to make money with them, than with a sub. Any game that starts out with a F2P with a shop mindset has a far greater chance of succeeding than going sub. The sheer size of the bigger F2P companies is proof of that...I mean come ON companies making games like Atlantica Online is posting better profits with F2P games than some of the bigger gaming companies out there...lol...get with the times.

From a business standpoint it looks like this.

Charge a subscription for $14.95 a month to a possible 12-15 million consumers which you have next to no chance of getting half of and if you get 1/10th of them you did something special or...

Create a shop with microtransactions to a possible 40+ million consumers, odds of success is high, chance of getting multiple transactions is great and profitability is near impossible not to achieve.

Then again, there are the freemium games, being run by moronic companies like Funcom where they are ignorant of what the word microtransactions means and somehow manage to drive away their newest consumer target with high prices...

Well, Tor always implied it's main competitor was WoW. Wow is sub based.

Secondly, EA is blaming their entire underperformance on the fact that sub based games are no longer profitable.

That's a cop out, ignoring any other possible reasons for the game's underperformance. (Which eveen EA said on their exit polls, 60% of the former customers did not indicate the sub was the problem.)

Also 100% of the the 2.6 million people who bought the box realized there would be a onthly sub.

The P2P is dead spin in ToR's case is spin.

As to the enormous profitability of the FTP market; I'm pretty sure Zynga is smarting quite a bit. (As is Facebook for that matter.)

D3, based in all likelihood more on the success of D and D2, sold a lot of boxes; and while no means a failure, server lode has taken a big hit. Also, the RMAH seems to not be the cash cow it was hoped to be. (I don't have financials)

The Facebook games, D3, and the other FTP games you mentioned seem to have one important thing in common:

They aren't MMOs. Also, a FTP game can't really boast about the number of subscribers they have.

For example Star Wars Clone War Adventures has over 10 million accounts.

How many of them are spending money?

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3700

8/22/12 5:07:00 PM#140
Originally posted by tiefighter25
Originally posted by Iselin

 I see many posts here and elsewhere that link monthly updates to the monthly sub. Trying to figure out if they got their money's worth this month. That's new thinking. WOW spent many years doing virtually nothing month to month other than the seasonal events and not many were bitching about the sub cost. But times changed and now we're expecting to see something tangible for our $180/year.

 

The box-cost-only GW2 model just highlights the inherent problem with the monthly sub model... it makes it seem like a greedy, money-grubbing system... which it is.

That's pretty much revisionist history. Vanilla WoW put out a decent ammount of content. The content released did a decent job of pacing with the players level progression. Call it gear grind or what you will, but they were tweaking their battlegrounds, releasing new 5 (and for a while 10) man instances, adding 40 and 20 man raids, adding tons of gear, quests, reputation factions, etc.

SWTOR had a dismal record of releasing new content. A pittance of gear, 1 warzone and 1 raid in 10 months. That's it. What's more, progressing in SWTOR was much faster (blame casualization if you want). It was extremeley easy to find yourself essentially done with the all the games content in about a month.

Love WoW, hate it; Vaniila WoW players were seeing much more content for their $15 a month then 8 years later with SWTOR. (The WoW expansions are a related but a bit of a different topic.)

The Guild Wars Buy to Play model is intresting. They proved it could work with their heavily instances first title. Things look promising for their second, this time fully fledged MMO title. The long term success can only be determined by how well their expansions sell and are received. The B2P model is certainly different then the P2P monthly sub model but it has a lot more in common with it then the FTP/Freemium/P2W models.

I'm not saying that vanilla WOW didn't have patches and additions--it obviously did--but I don't remember me or anyone else in any forum making a connection between the frequency and quality of additions and a monthly sub justification. People routinely do that now with any MMO.

 

Monthly subs just were. It was the MMO way and all the ones worth playing had it. It's a financial model that is more like the old Compuserve, America Online or MUD models than anything else: of course you paid monthly to get access: those servers and high-speed connections cost the company big bucks...or so we figured.

 

F2P games originally were (and still largely are) just a bunch of 2nd rate MMOs with amateurish graphics, etc. This "let's rescue our declining monthly-sub AAA MMO by going free to play" is a recent phenomenom. Turbine's DDO was the first one I remember that did that...and they had some success.

 

But all of those F2P games--whether they started that way or not--have one thing in common: a way of getting a monthly stream of revenue by making the cash shop if not absolutely necessary, very close to it. You need it for certain dungeons, better equipment, certain races or professions, etc. It's a model that has been adopted by all the tablet games that are "free" in iTunes or Android marketplaces.

 

The original GW was unique even back then in providing a persistent server system for free. You bought the box and everything you needed to play was there. No need to dish out more cash until the next expansion. But it couldn't really have an impact on the full-fledged MMO genre because, as you say, it really wasn't an MMO. This time around it is, and that changes everything.

 

Bandwidth, HW considerations and minimum-wage GMs, are an insignificant part of the MMO cost that needs to be recovered. The months and years of development is where they spent the big bucks. And that's hardly different from any first rate FPS title... when was the last time an FPS-- a type of game that attracts hordes of people who play it for months or even years--charged for on-line play? Did those companies go btroke or turned a profit?

 

MMOs are just catching up to the way other games with required on-line components do business and once one goes that way, they'll all need to do it.

 

 

13 Pages First « 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 » Last Search