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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » EA officially determines sub based games are dead.

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257 posts found
  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

8/22/12 3:34:39 PM#101
     Tera and TSW fully support EAs position.
  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/22/12 3:34:40 PM#102
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Creslin321

EA with Sports video games.

Apple with MP3 players and tablets.

Firaxis with 4X strategy games.

NFL with professional football.

Sooo...when doing analysis on any of the markets above, should I just ignore the clearly dominant player, because they are "an outlier?"

With the exception of Applie, I am not versed in any of those other markets so how can I?  Also, what point am I avoiding?  You're the one arguing WoW dominates the market due to its superiority (which you paralleled with Microsoft).  I don't agree with that reasoning.  It's very naive to believe something succeeds as a business purely because it offers a superior product.

If this is the case, how do you explain VHS beating out Betamax for one?  That's besides the point, but I don't see what point I am avoiding.  You and I have very opposing views.  What else is there to discuss?  If GW2 doesn't do as well as you have touted, will you do a reversal and say it failed because it was poorly designed?  Do you always NEED to be on the winning team?

 I never said that.

That is a strawman argument.  All I said was that I don't think the business model was the primary reason SWTOR failed.  That does not translate to highlighted above. 

I'm not going to respond to your VHS/Betamax thing because that is just more strawman.  And as for the GW2 thing, if it doesn't do well, and I think it is poorly designed, then yes I will say that.  If I think it was well designed, then I will state whatever reason I think it did poorly...maybe it was the cash shop, maybe it was lack of marketing, all hypothetical.  You have to analyze things on a case by case basis.  And in the case of SWTOR, I think the business model had little to do with its failure.

And as for "what's my point..."  My point is that you can't ignore the dominant player in an industry when analyzing that industry because it's an outlier.  That's stupid.  That's ignoring THE MOST IMPORTANT PLAYER.  This isn't one dude out of 2 million that is 8.5 feet tall.  This is one company that owns like eighty percent of the market.  Get the difference?

 

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  clumsytoes44

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/12
Posts: 387

8/22/12 3:38:09 PM#103

EA is really trying to use every excuse in the book for their failure with SWTOR aren't they? Not that it's a bad game, but going F2P in under 1 year from release is not a good thing. Just my 2 cent's.

  User Deleted
8/22/12 3:40:08 PM#104

Its not the payment models that are the problems with mmos these days, its the mmos themselves and same rehashed crap the devs are throwing at us

 

And you actually believe that those same people throwing garbage at you aren't doing it because of the payment model involved? Who do you think comes up with the payment model? The devs sure don't! It's the people funding the game that do that.

Let me explain. The very people who fund the game want to squeeze as much out as possible, so in order to achieve their dream they force the devs (in the sub companies usually) to put out rehashed crap as expansions that take up to a year to make that have nothing new to offer players. They also employ a number of time wasters requiring an enormous time sink end game, such as currency gathering, really bad algrithms for drops for gear (gear treadmill), or reputation gathering to access content one wouldn't be able to access normally. So essentially they are working AGAINST the players cutting them off from the content they put in. They then take that money from the subs and convince players it's for the upkeep of the servers and maintenance when it's REALLY just for their bottom line.

So you see it REALLY is the payment model.

  kol56

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 130

8/22/12 3:42:36 PM#105

THIS is what i call insanity.

People ask for more complex and deep MMOs.

Developers refuse to do that, instead they keep dumbing down games to the point of having the same depth of a tetris game.

Instead, now we get games with no open world PVP, soft grouping, soft trinity, soft everything.... lool

And now that nobody likes those games, it's the PAYMENT MODEL.

 

LOLOLOOL NOOOOOOO, get this mac donalds developers, YOUR GAMES ARE #$%##%, WAKE UP.

 

Thank god im not just an MMO gamer, i have plenty of console games to play while i wait for ArcheAge, a true MMO.

"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."

"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy"
-Seinfeld

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3779

8/22/12 3:42:38 PM#106

Regardless of who says it or why they say it, the monthly-sub MMO model is at the very least deathly ill.

 

GW2--love it, hate it, be indifferent, it doesn't matter--poses a serious problem for anyone still interested in continuing the sub model. If the GW2 content was visibly less than "full-fledged" AAA MMOs, the monthly sub could continue to be justified for a while longer. But GW2 has content and depth indistinguishable from WOW, SWTOR, RIFT, TSW... any theme park you care to compare it to. It has 1-80 PVE with dungeons and an open world, instanced scenario PVP with competitive ladders and a persistent, 2-week long, 3-sided PVP that looks suspiciously like an updated-for-2012 DAoC RvR model. Add a complex crafting system and you have all the MMO features. Apparently, even raids are in the work.

 

And it has no sub. Yes it has a cash shop with fluffy crap for fluffy crap afficionados, but it's not crippled in any way like the other current type fof MMO, the "crippled-until-you-pay" or, as it's commonly refered to, F2P.

 

LIke I said, you can think what you will about GW2, but anyone who thinks this isn't a financial model game changer is just fooling himself. This marks the end of monthly sub MMOs... period.

  kol56

Novice Member

Joined: 8/08/12
Posts: 130

8/22/12 3:46:36 PM#107

And when F2P WOW clones start dying, it will be the players fault.

Mark my words.

"Dogs are the leaders of the planet. If you see two life forms, one of them's making a poop, the other one's carrying it for him, who would you assume is in charge."

"The idea behind the tuxedo is the woman's point of view that men are all the same; so we might as well dress them that way. That's why a wedding is like the joining together of a beautiful, glowing bride and some guy"
-Seinfeld

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/22/12 3:48:31 PM#108
Originally posted by Iselin

Regardless of who says it or why they say it, the monthly-sub MMO model is at the very least deathly ill.

 

GW2--love it, hate it, be indifferent, it doesn't matter--poses a serious problem for anyone still interested in continuing the sub model. If the GW2 content was visibly less than "full-fledged" AAA MMOs, the monthly sub could continue to be justified for a while longer. But GW2 has content and depth indistinguishable from WOW, SWTOR, RIFT, TSW... any theme park you care to compare it to. It has 1-80 PVE with dungeons and an open world, instanced scenario PVP with competitive ladders and a persistent, 2-week long, 3-sided PVP that looks suspiciously like an updated-for-2012 DAoC RvR model. Add a complex crafting system and you have all the MMO features. Apparently, even raids are in the work.

 

And it has no sub. Yes it has a cash shop with fluffy crap for fluffy crap afficionados, but it's not crippled in any way like the other current type fof MMO, the "crippled-until-you-pay" or, as it's commonly refered to, F2P.

 

LIke I said, you can think what you will about GW2, but anyone who thinks this isn't a financial model game changer is just fooling himself. This marks the end of monthly sub MMOs... period.

 Despite the fact that I don't think SWTOR failed due to the sub model, I think what you say has merit.  If GW2 winds up being as successful as WoW, then it will likely be the official end of the sub model for mainsteam MMORPGs.  Why would someone pay $15 a month for a product when the industry leader costs you nothing?

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Vyeth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 1464

Celebrated pariah of MMORPG.com

8/22/12 3:49:01 PM#109

Nothing wrong with change..

Hell one day we may revisit the subscription again, but it will probably be for 3 months minimum and included totally in the box price (meaning the software could cost 15 bucks while the other 40 is your 3 month sub fee).. More bargain which means more people would probably buy..

But I dunno, we'll see..

 

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

8/22/12 3:49:48 PM#110

Sounds like they are desperate to take down Blizzard.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

8/22/12 3:51:25 PM#111
Originally posted by tawess
I'd toss my 2 cent in to this... It is dead.. or perhaps dead is the wrong thing to say.. but it have gone the way of casset-tapes adn VHS -video... Evolution have made it obsolete and there is no undoing that.

Bad examples. Casset-Tapes and VHS became obsolete when competeing technology arrived on the market that offered a genuine QUALITATIVE advantage.

I don't believe anyone can make a compelling arguement that a game becomes a BETTER game or provides more entertainment simply because you changed the PRICING model. That'd be like saying this car gets an extra 5 MPG when you LEASE it instead of PURCHASE.

In terms of MMO's, the pricing model really is a bit of a red herring. It might be different if MMO's were like houses or cars, where purchase gave some form of real ownership. However, it's clear that's not the case. You have no ownership over the bits and bytes of data that reside on the publishers servers. They can shut down thier servers tomorrow and delete your characters and whatever you "purchased" from them and you have no legal recourse.

What you are actualy "purchasing" when you make a micro-transaction is the license to access some item/functionality on thier service....which is exactly the same thing you get with a traditional subscription. The real difference is simply a matter of price.

What publishers are effectively saying when they say the "subscription model is dead" or however they are trying to spin it, is that they are incapable of producing a product that a large enough number of people consider worth the price of what they want to charge for a monthly subscription. Everything else is pretty much smoke and mirrors.

  lifeordinary

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 691

8/22/12 3:52:35 PM#112

According to EA's own statement they had around 500K players when they announced F2P model. So their decision to go F2P has more to do with taking advantage of this model than SWTOR not having enough players to support it in P2P category.

EA knows that they can easily hit 1 mill playerbase by going F2P. it has the playerbase who won't mind payign monthly subs at the same time there is huge market of those players who like F2P games.

I would say EA is very clever and companies like Trion too should follow EA and go F2P while keeping monthly sub option on for those who prefer it.

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

8/22/12 3:57:04 PM#113

Its not dead sorry EA... 

 

Its just no MMO has really come out to justify the sub...meaning the last 10 years or so we have been getting epicly screwed by studios and there half assed MMO's. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  IPolygon

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 702

8/22/12 3:58:40 PM#114
Good quality games like WoW say hi.
  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

8/22/12 4:00:44 PM#115


Originally posted by tiefighter25
http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/22/ea-coo-maintains-confidence-in-bioware/

According to EA the sub based model is dead. Perhaps this occured on Feb. 29th of 2012? In which case leap years are bad for sub based MMO's? I'm not sure, EA didn't go into details but they have exit surveys which definitively proove their assertion.

In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.


Honestly, what was their exit strategy?

Because as I remember it, it wasn't "Would you play come back and play all the time, and make cash shop purchases if there was no subscription cost"

If I had chosen that option it would have been to say "This game isn't worth paying for beyond the box price and I will never come back because the content isn't very good imo".

I know exit strategies work in a lot of cases, but I don't think this is one of them.

Yes there are people who don't want to sub to a game. I can understand that I guess, though not really .. but to each their own I suppose. But that doesn't mean that when someone steps up and includes 6+ months of content along with all of the successful gameplay and UI enhancements from the past decade, that people wont be willing to pay $15 a month.

This reads to me more like : "We can't release content every month like we talked about, for $15 a month, so we are making the game free and you will get content after everyone has bought enough items from the cash shop"

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  lifeordinary

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 691

8/22/12 4:01:27 PM#116
Originally posted by IPolygon
Good quality games like WoW say hi.

So i guess there is only one good quality MMO in entire  market based purely on sub numbers.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3779

8/22/12 4:03:26 PM#117
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Iselin

Regardless of who says it or why they say it, the monthly-sub MMO model is at the very least deathly ill.

 

GW2--love it, hate it, be indifferent, it doesn't matter--poses a serious problem for anyone still interested in continuing the sub model. If the GW2 content was visibly less than "full-fledged" AAA MMOs, the monthly sub could continue to be justified for a while longer. But GW2 has content and depth indistinguishable from WOW, SWTOR, RIFT, TSW... any theme park you care to compare it to. It has 1-80 PVE with dungeons and an open world, instanced scenario PVP with competitive ladders and a persistent, 2-week long, 3-sided PVP that looks suspiciously like an updated-for-2012 DAoC RvR model. Add a complex crafting system and you have all the MMO features. Apparently, even raids are in the work.

 

And it has no sub. Yes it has a cash shop with fluffy crap for fluffy crap afficionados, but it's not crippled in any way like the other current type fof MMO, the "crippled-until-you-pay" or, as it's commonly refered to, F2P.

 

LIke I said, you can think what you will about GW2, but anyone who thinks this isn't a financial model game changer is just fooling himself. This marks the end of monthly sub MMOs... period.

 Despite the fact that I don't think SWTOR failed due to the sub model, I think what you say has merit.  If GW2 winds up being as successful as WoW, then it will likely be the official end of the sub model for mainsteam MMORPGs.  Why would someone pay $15 a month for a product when the industry leader costs you nothing?

Oh I agree with you. I don't think the sub-model had anything to do with SWTOR's decline either. I was super-exited about SWTOR, played the heck out of it, lleveled 3 50s and several 40s... I have my own theories as to why SWTOR declined rapidly (lack of dungeon finder in time, too-slow to merge servers, no meaningful open world PvP, ultimately too WOW-like, etc.)

 

Heck it wasn't even the last major MMO to take a stab at perpetuating the monthly-sub, Tera and TSW cam after SWTOR and they tried it too. I just don't think many devs realized that the WOW cash cow that keeps on giving couldn't be pulled off any more.

 

I see many posts here and elsewhere that link monthly updates to the monthly sub. Trying to figure out if they got their money's worth this month. That's new thinking. WOW spent many years doing virtually nothing month to month other than the seasonal events and not many were bitching about the sub cost. But times changed and now we're expecting to see something tangible for our $180/year.

 

The box-cost-only GW2 model just highlights the inherent problem with the monthly sub model... it makes it seem like a greedy, money-grubbing system... which it is.

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

8/22/12 4:05:45 PM#118


Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by IPolygon Good quality games like WoW say hi.
So i guess there is only one good quality MMO in entire  market based purely on sub numbers.

Rift, TSW, AION lasted a long time. And most of the good f2p games still have a sub option. Wildstar wont be f2p I dont think. Not sure about Arch Age.

This is just EA trying to tell the customers what they want, once again.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

8/22/12 4:08:25 PM#119
Originally posted by Iselin

Regardless of who says it or why they say it, the monthly-sub MMO model is at the very least deathly ill.

 

GW2--love it, hate it, be indifferent, it doesn't matter--poses a serious problem for anyone still interested in continuing the sub model. If the GW2 content was visibly less than "full-fledged" AAA MMOs, the monthly sub could continue to be justified for a while longer. But GW2 has content and depth indistinguishable from WOW, SWTOR, RIFT, TSW... any theme park you care to compare it to. It has 1-80 PVE with dungeons and an open world, instanced scenario PVP with competitive ladders and a persistent, 2-week long, 3-sided PVP that looks suspiciously like an updated-for-2012 DAoC RvR model. Add a complex crafting system and you have all the MMO features. Apparently, even raids are in the work.

 

And it has no sub. Yes it has a cash shop with fluffy crap for fluffy crap afficionados, but it's not crippled in any way like the other current type fof MMO, the "crippled-until-you-pay" or, as it's commonly refered to, F2P.

 

LIke I said, you can think what you will about GW2, but anyone who thinks this isn't a financial model game changer is just fooling himself. This marks the end of monthly sub MMOs... period.

Depends on the value they actualy provide, what creeps it's way into the cash shop and the number and price of the content expansions.

If content expansions are the same cost per content as a typical sub-based game then the business model doesn't really provide much more to the player then a standard subscription model would.

Really the pricing model is mostly smoke and mirrors, as far as MMO's go. What really matters is value delivered for the dollar.

If GW2 is able to deliver a better quality service for a cheaper price then it will beat out it's competition. But at the end of the day that really has nothing to do with whatever marketing label they stick on thier pricing model. It has to do with the nuts and bolts of how they build and operate games.

 

  lifeordinary

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 691

8/22/12 4:09:18 PM#120
Originally posted by azmundai

 


Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by IPolygon Good quality games like WoW say hi.
So i guess there is only one good quality MMO in entire  market based purely on sub numbers.

 

Rift, TSW, AION lasted a long time. And most of the good f2p games still have a sub option. Wildstar wont be f2p I dont think. Not sure about Arch Age.

This is just EA trying to tell the customers what they want, once again.

And what makes you think SWTOR wouldn't have lasted for same amount of years as Rift and Aion? i already mentioned in last post that according to EA's own statement they had around 500K players which is a very good number and they always said before release that they would need around 500K players to keep the game profitable in long run.

But since it is EA they want to make more money so they are going with F2P option because they know that with an IP like SW, F2P model is nothign less than a gold mine. Any other company would have been happy with 500K player base but nope not EA.

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