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Star Wars: The Old Republic

Star Wars: The Old Republic 

General Discussion  » EA officially determines sub based games are dead.

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257 posts found
  desiriel

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/06
Posts: 99

8/22/12 2:45:28 PM#81

 

So why are EvE players still paying a monthly sub ? or even WoW ?

Maybe, just maybe, they're quality products and people are just getting tired to be milked of their money for unfinished, buggy, boring, cloned games after years of failures and unfulfilled hype.

But I'm just a dilettante: SWTOR's problems are related to its revenue model for sure...

  Nephaerius

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1455

8/22/12 2:58:40 PM#82
Originally posted by desiriel

 

So why are EvE players still paying a monthly sub ? or even WoW ?

Maybe, just maybe, they're quality products and people are just getting tired to be milked of their money for unfinished, buggy, boring, cloned games after years of failures and unfulfilled hype.

But I'm just a dilettante: SWTOR's problems are related to its revenue model for sure...

I'll say this again.  Eve and WoW are both established titles that launched when subs were completely acceptable and expected.  At this point their playerbase has almost 10 years invested.  Their core players are not going to go any where ever.  CCP also clearly indicated they would like to move Eve F2P last year with the whole monocle gate disaster.

Furthermore, WoW is tied to a ridiculously famous IP.

Eve offers a singular experience that cannot be found any place else.

Current CCP and Blizzard MMO titles in development are all rumored to be F2P.  It also has a built in F2P model through the PLEX system.  This can allow some players to play without spending money.  Of course all PLEX has to originate from somewhere.

Also, let's not forget how Vivendi tried to shed itself of Activision/Blizzard.  Or how their subs have dropped by over 3 million in the last year or two.  I also did not see a rise of 3 million subs elsewhere in the MMO space.  Where did they all go?  Maybe WoW subs indicate players that are willing to pay a sub for a Warcraft MMO.  Not players that are willing to pay subs for any MMO.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  lifeordinary

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 691

8/22/12 3:03:03 PM#83
Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Tip for you. if you want to give an example to prove your point make sure to mention norm not exception. WOW is an anomaly of MMO world.

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/22/12 3:05:18 PM#84
Originally posted by lifeordinary
Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Tip for you. if you want to give an example to prove your point make sure to mention norm not exception. WOW is an anomaly of MMO world.

 Just like how Microsoft is the anomoly of the computer operating system world and must be ignored whenever you talk about computer operating systems.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  lifeordinary

Novice Member

Joined: 7/05/12
Posts: 691

8/22/12 3:08:14 PM#85
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by lifeordinary
Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Tip for you. if you want to give an example to prove your point make sure to mention norm not exception. WOW is an anomaly of MMO world.

 Just like how Microsoft is the anomoly of the computer operating system world and must be ignored whenever you talk about computer operating systems.

Wow...really? comparing Microsoft with WOW to prove your point? 

/facepalm

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2087

8/22/12 3:08:15 PM#86
Originally posted by Creslin321
 

 Just like how Microsoft is the anomoly of the computer operating system world and must be ignored whenever you talk about computer operating systems.

And by your logic, everyone using WIndows does so because they truly believe it to be the superior product.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  tiefighter25

Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/12
Posts: 949

 
OP  8/22/12 3:08:38 PM#87
Originally posted by Nephaerius

Furthermore, WoW is tied to a ridiculously famous IP.

Are you suggesting WoW's IP is larger then Star Wars?

  Nephaerius

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1455

8/22/12 3:09:04 PM#88
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by lifeordinary
Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Tip for you. if you want to give an example to prove your point make sure to mention norm not exception. WOW is an anomaly of MMO world.

 Just like how Microsoft is the anomoly of the computer operating system world and must be ignored whenever you talk about computer operating systems.

Both of you are right.  You don't just throw outlier data in the trash can and ignore it altogether.  At the same time you do not use it as your primary evidence to prove a point. 

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1813

8/22/12 3:10:01 PM#89

When a business can't compete on quality, it has no choice but to try to compete on price. Of course, very few executives are willing to publicly admit their business is unable to compete on quality. You'll note though that;   " $15 a month is too expensive to play TOR" and  "TOR doesn't provide enough value to warrant $15 per month."  are functionaly identical statements.

Clearly the 2 million + people who bought TOR had no problem with the concept of a subscription based business model when they purchased it (many of whom bought collectors edition or bought multi-month's worth of play time, upfront). It wasn't until they actualy got thier hands on the product and played it for awhile thay they decided it wasn't worth the price of subscribing. What does that tell you?

 

 

  Preacher26

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 376

"This isn't good or bad. It's just the way of things. Nothing stays the same."

8/22/12 3:10:30 PM#90
Originally posted by tiefighter25

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/22/ea-coo-maintains-confidence-in-bioware/

According to EA the sub based model is dead. Perhaps this occured on Feb. 29th of 2012? In which case leap years are bad for sub based MMO's? I'm not sure, EA didn't go into details but they have exit surveys which definitively proove their assertion.

In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.

 

maybe because most EA games are bad these days...

Its not the payment models that are the problems with mmos these days, its the mmos themselves and same rehashed crap the devs are throwing at us.

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2087

8/22/12 3:12:44 PM#91
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

When a business can't compete on quality, it has no choice but to try to compete on price. Of course, very few executives are willing to publicly admit their business is unable to compete on quality. You'll note though that;   " $15 a month is too expensive to play TOR" and  "TOR doesn't provide enough value to warrant $15 per month."  are functionaly identical statements.

Clearly the 2 million + people who bought TOR had no problem with the concept of a subscription based business model when they purchased it (many of whom bought collectors edition or bought multi-month's worth of play time, upfront). It wasn't until they actualy got thier hands on the product and played it for awhile thay they decided it wasn't worth the price of subscribing. What does that tell you?

 

 

I think it's more telling to find out at what point they quit playing.  Was it right off the bat?  Was it when they maxed their first character and encountered the inevitable end-game grind?  No one knows.  EA is putting out whatever message they want us to believe, but truly we are just speculating at this point.

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

8/22/12 3:15:40 PM#92
Originally posted by grimal
Originally posted by Creslin321
 

 Just like how Microsoft is the anomoly of the computer operating system world and must be ignored whenever you talk about computer operating systems.

And by your logic, everyone using WIndows does so because they truly believe it to be the superior product.

 Good job avoiding the point.  Here are some other examples, you can either argue against the point, or try to avoid all of them:

EA with Sports video games.

Apple with MP3 players and tablets.

Firaxis with 4X strategy games.

NFL with professional football.

Sooo...when doing analysis on any of the markets above, should I just ignore the clearly dominant player, because they are "an outlier?"

EDIT:

Also, I think that you can't just apply the "statistical outlier" argument to any topic.  Ignoring outliers makes sense if you're trying to determine something like average IQ or average height.  It would be stupid if I tried to argue that most people have an IQ above 100 by bringing up some lady that has an IQ from 220.

But what we're talking about here...analyzing industry trends, you can't just ignore the big player.  The big player sets the tone of the game, and has a HUGE influence on all the little players.  If WoW lowered its sub to $10, what do you think the little players would do?  Do you think they would keep a $15 sub?  I doubt it.

 

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19008

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

8/22/12 3:22:28 PM#93
Originally posted by Preacher26
Originally posted by tiefighter25

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/08/22/ea-coo-maintains-confidence-in-bioware/

According to EA the sub based model is dead. Perhaps this occured on Feb. 29th of 2012? In which case leap years are bad for sub based MMO's? I'm not sure, EA didn't go into details but they have exit surveys which definitively proove their assertion.

In all seriousness, it's spin statements like this, and their subsequent industry media bylines and articles that keep an unhealthy ammount of ire and discussion going about this title.

 

maybe because most EA games are bad these days...

Its not the payment models that are the problems with mmos these days, its the mmos themselves and same rehashed crap the devs are throwing at us.

Bingo, has actually been said by several others in this thread, but no one is reading their responses, just spouting off their own thoughts.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  tawess

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/05
Posts: 1982

8/22/12 3:24:27 PM#94
I'd toss my 2 cent in to this... It is dead.. or perhaps dead is the wrong thing to say.. but it have gone the way of casset-tapes adn VHS -video... Evolution have made it obsolete and there is no undoing that.

Tomas Soapbox

This have been a good conversation

  Wicoa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 1613

8/22/12 3:25:43 PM#95

Its not the payment models that are the problems with mmos these days, its the mmos themselves and same rehashed crap the devs are throwing at us.

Winner

This is also the reason why WoW eats and spits out the competition because they try to copy it and make a worse product.

  stevebmbsqd

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/09
Posts: 457

"Evolution thru Revolution"

8/22/12 3:26:29 PM#96
Originally posted by Teala
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Shhh.... don't bring factual evidence into our hyperbole filled discussions. 

Exactly.   Subscription based games are not dead.   Look at EVE, people that play EVE and pay for two and three accounts at a time?   Subscription based games are not dead.   The only reason so many games fail is not because they have a sub...it is because they are bad games.   

This.... +10

  dageeza

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/14/04
Posts: 580

8/22/12 3:28:58 PM#97

Truth of the matter is i would be seriously reluctant to buy even an B2P game with EAs moniker on it..

I am glad that the monthly sub model is dying not because of the model itself but because of the cloned, uncreative garbage these fools throw at us, most of the current games arent even worth the box price let alone a sub with CS to add salt to the wound..

WoW will be the last dinosaur to fall but it will happen likely sooner than many of us think possible..

Bring to me a truly innovative great game that in 2015 is worthy of $15 a month and i will gladly pay it, otherwise there is going to be to much other good stuff out there that costs nothing or only the cost of the box..

Playing GW2..

  grimal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 9/11/05
Posts: 2087

8/22/12 3:29:36 PM#98
Originally posted by Creslin321

EA with Sports video games.

Apple with MP3 players and tablets.

Firaxis with 4X strategy games.

NFL with professional football.

Sooo...when doing analysis on any of the markets above, should I just ignore the clearly dominant player, because they are "an outlier?"

With the exception of Applie, I am not versed in any of those other markets so how can I?  Also, what point am I avoiding?  You're the one arguing WoW dominates the market due to its superiority (which you paralleled with Microsoft).  I don't agree with that reasoning.  It's very naive to believe something succeeds as a business purely because it offers a superior product.

If this is the case, how do you explain VHS beating out Betamax for one?  That's besides the point, but I don't see what point I am avoiding.  You and I have very opposing views.  What else is there to discuss?  If GW2 doesn't do as well as you have touted, will you do a reversal and say it failed because it was poorly designed?  Do you always NEED to be on the winning team?

"I'm sorry, if you were right, I'd agree with you." - Robin Williams

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1387

8/22/12 3:29:51 PM#99

I'm a bit suprised more sub games haven't at least dropped their sub price from the $14.99 standard.  You would think they would want the edge up on the competition. 

 

I think sub based games are becoming more rare and for good reason.  Especially if your product isn't the best of the best and you still want people to inhabit the world you've created.  Obviously SWTOR didn't fail due to sub alone but I would log in time to time if it was free.  They will never see me again with the sub fee. 

 

My question to people that deny that sub games are going away.  Have you ever quit a middling type game (you could take it or leave it) where the sub pushed you over the edge to quit? 

 

Sidenote:  I would also like to thank the cash shop obsessed suckers who are allowing me to play some of my favorite side MMO's for free.

  User Deleted
8/22/12 3:33:00 PM#100

So when EA finally does surveys to learn that this business model isn't sound at the end of the game instead of at the beginning they are heralded as a sensable business company.

When Arenanet presents this as a fact years before they launch their title and backs their claims up with evidence of how companies with subs typically handle content updates, server loads, server upkeep Arenanet is described as full of nonsense in these very same forums. 

Am I the only one noticing the bias here?

For some reason, many in our human race will try to hold onto something that they can't sustain monetarily in order to feel more comfortable.

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