Originally posted by Creslin321

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If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

I'm not sure which payment system WoW uses in asia. But if you look only its american and european customer base then the resulting number could have been reachable by bEAware & Tortanic.

You got to love the corporate mind. 

It's funny because I see the same kind of thought process by suit-monkeys with business degrees in my line of work and I'm in a completely different field.  Do business colleges teach people how to be know-it-alls that live in denial?

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Originally posted by Teala

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Originally posted by Naevius If 40% of people cited subscription as a reason for leaving SWTOR... 60% gave a different reason. :)

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I'll wager that most of that 40% said something like "I cannot justify paying a subscription for this single player game."

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I'd love to look over all the comments people cited for canceling SWTOR.

I'd also be willing t obet that of that 40%, a huge portion of those cases, the reasons cited could be prefaced with:

"For the money,......" and not change the meaning of why they quit.

Meaning It wasn't that there WAS a subscription in the 1st place, but that the game itself simply didn't justify it.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Naevius
If 40% of people cited subscription as a reason for leaving SWTOR... 60% gave a different reason. :)

I'll wager that most of that 40% said something like "I cannot justify paying a subscription for this single player game."

If I didn't use game time cards I would have written:

"Either deliver a decent MMO or deliver a decent single player CRPG."

I would like for these big companies/egos to stop treating everyone as if they suffered from mental retardation. Because newsflash: they don't.

We see right through your bullshit, and no, quality sub based games are not dead.

Funny, I've officially determined that EA backs the worst sub-based games.  Coincidence?

If only they'd bailed out, way back when Earth&Beyond tanked...

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Shhh.... don't bring factual evidence into our hyperbole filled discussions. 

It's isn't factual it's strawman. It's ignoring the fact that WoW's subscribers are already invested into the game while a new sub model needs to create that investment from the players.

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Originally posted by Creslin321
Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

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You forget 1 small detail there bro ;)

World of Warcraft EU and USA pay monthly subs, EU playerbase dropped around 600/800k players this year.

Asian players dont pay a monthly fee, but pay per hour, mostly in net cafe's.
But BLizzard calculates those pay per hour as subs.

In reality they dont have 9.1 million subs more like EU 800k USA 1.5 million ?
if you look at Eu servers, all 128 servers, only 15 are full, 20/25 are medium, 88 servers are death, 10 people online in a major city at prime time.

There is a thread on the front page with 180 pages long plea's to blizzard to assist all those death server with FCM (Free Character Migrations) but once in awhile a moderator come along and say:

We are awere of your situation and are discussing ways to improve your gameplay.
^this has been said for 3 years now and more and mroe servers die every day.

I think wow has dropped below 3 million subs and the others come Asia.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Shhh.... don't bring factual evidence into our hyperbole filled discussions. 

Exactly.   Subscription based games are not dead.   Look at EVE, people that play EVE and pay for two and three accounts at a time?   Subscription based games are not dead.   The only reason so many games fail is not because they have a sub...it is because they are bad games.   

At one time I used to pay for 4 EVE subs at one time, not with PLEX either, but hard earned greenbacks.

Not because I throw money away, the content (and opportunities) they provided made it worthwhile.

Almost all other titles including SWTOR are barely worth a single sub fee.

i wouldnt say sub models for games are dead, but the 14.99++ ones sure are. 

im sure if games like GW2 or WoW or War ect had a sub fee of 5.99 more people would play that over a 9.99++ game. 

i mean look at the prices over the years, before most games charged around 15 bucks that price slowly dropped to 12 now most games are 9 bucks amonth (not including taxes or whatever)  and now days we have more games going freedium or super cheap around 2-7bucks a month. 

in a few years im sure big named games like WoW or WoW2.0 or any other games going subbed will have a price tag of less then 9.99. 

if you lower the montly price tag you can draw more people lolol SWTOR could have more people if they charged less and fixed the problems the community continues to argue about.. making it f2p wont really solve anything :/ if they dont fix stuff first lol

but this is EA after all.... they have the best record for doing the correct action for game problems........(rip westwood rip...)

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Originally posted by achesoma
You got to love the corporate mind. 

It's funny because I see the same kind of thought process by suit-monkeys with business degrees in my line of work and I'm in a completely different field.  Do business colleges teach people how to be know-it-alls that live in denial?

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No, but having unreasonable bosses who put unreachable goals on employees will do that.

Admitting you were wrong is noble, but it costs you your job. When you cook a few numbers and show bosses (who also have a vested interest in "believing" this fabrication) some half baked report on why the project failed and blame the customers or anyone else for that matter, everyone is trying to dodge a bullet.

Originally posted by Kyleran

They've misunderstood their exit interviews.  They assume that 40% won't pay a subscription, I maintain most of them will (since it really is a small amount of money) if the content is worth the buyers time.

Apparently they failed to deliver on engaging long term content, but don't seem to realize it yet.

Don't worry, when people don't stick around for the F2P version either, they'll understand the real issue.

 

I agree.

For instance,I have no problem paying a sub. At this point in time I have 4 subscriptions going.

However, if someone says to me if i would prefer to pay "nothing" then sure why not. If the content is fun then it really isn't an issue.

Originally posted by Teala

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

Shhh.... don't bring factual evidence into our hyperbole filled discussions. 

Exactly.   Subscription based games are not dead.   Look at EVE, people that play EVE and pay for two and three accounts at a time?   Subscription based games are not dead.   The only reason so many games fail is not because they have a sub...it is because they are bad games.   

No they're not, EVE has the PLEX system so technically they are not actually paying 2-3 accounts.  Those that have multiple accounts do so via PLEX.  Also CCP alows cheap subs for secon accounts or promotions for second accounts.  CCP doesn't try to dried up every ounce of revenue off their player base, they are unique in that regard.

Originally posted by Mothanos

 

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Originally posted by Creslin321
Denial.

 

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

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You forget 1 small detail there bro ;)

World of Warcraft EU and USA pay monthly subs, EU playerbase dropped around 600/800k players this year.

Asian players dont pay a monthly fee, but pay per hour, mostly in net cafe's.
But BLizzard calculates those pay per hour as subs.

In reality they dont have 9.1 million subs more like EU 800k USA 1.5 million ?
if you look at Eu servers, all 128 servers, only 15 are full, 20/25 are medium, 88 servers are death, 10 people online in a major city at prime time.

There is a thread on the front page with 180 pages long plea's to blizzard to assist all those death server with FCM (Free Character Migrations) but once in awhile a moderator come along and say:

We are awere of your situation and are discussing ways to improve your gameplay.
^this has been said for 3 years now and more and mroe servers die every day.

 

I think wow has dropped below 3 million subs and the others come Asia.

 

 Sure, that's fine.  So WoW has 3 million WESTERN subs, and it is an eight year old game.  That still doesn't exactly make the sub model dead.  Also...Eve has been steadily growing subs since release, and Rift is still hanging in there.

Three million is a lot of subs.  That's $45 million revenue PER MONTH from subs ALONE...and that's just one game!  I really wouldn't call that a "dead" business model.

If the sub model were dead, we would expect to see hardly any people still subbed to games.  But there are still multiple millions of active subscribers.

No, SWTOR did not fail because it was a sub game.  It failed because it was poorly suited to be a sub game.  It really doesn't offer anything decent in exception for its single player stuff.  People aren't going to stay subbed to replay a single player game over and over.

I bet that if Minecraft came out with an actual MMORPG server complete with a huge world, and charged people $10 a month to be a member of said server...it would have a lot of subs.  And why?  Because the game is conducive to the sub model.  People will play it for years and years because they get invested in the world they created.

There is nothing in SWTOR that keeps people coming back.  That is why it failed as a sub game.

This is a really bad time in MMO gaming,it is nothing more than a race for pricing but killing quality.This battle of the pricing works becuase there is so many gamers that do not understand game design.They can be manipulated and fooled by any smart developer/marketing team.Look no further than A-Nets rep that said GW2 is a FANBOIS game,how naive and lame is that?Guess what, it works on MANY people.Tell the people what they want to hear,make the game simple to play and you have hooked in many buyers weather your game is good or not.Oh yes and make future promises to keep them coming back.

I have never seen a really good game come of f2p and i will be surprised if i ever do.Archeage might be the first but any kind opf cash shop to fund the game would ruin it badly.I also notice graphic quality is usually dropped in f2p games.

What devs do is look for cheaper ways to deliver their product,this can mean sort of empty game world.PHasing in content instead of having it always visible,missing content and anything that might be costly to run like housing will not be there either or at the cvery best will be small instanced.

I was hoping to see gaming advance with destructible surfaces ,physics and smal ldetail like windows that break and jump through them.How about jumping from ledges or climbing walls,there is so much content that devs are leaving out.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Denial.

SWTOR couldn't have possibly failed because it wasn't a very good game...it HAD to be the business model, that's the ticket!

If the sub model were dead, WoW would not still have like 8 million active players.

I don't know if you are joking or serious here, but I am going to assume the former.  As has been said over and over by many people in these forums, WoW is an anomoly.  No MMO has been able to capture anywhere near that number for a reason.  If you think MMOs fail strictly because of "being bad" (purely subjective, by the way), you have a very naive view of the market.