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News & Features Discussion  » [Editorial] General: Modern PVP Sucks and Here's Why

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119 posts found
  jusomdude

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/21/06
Posts: 2312

8/21/12 11:26:44 AM#41

It depends on what classes you play for the degree of tactics you need. Some classes are pretty much just faceroll with a few IWIN buttons.

Of coarse these are always the more popular PvP classes, because everyone wants to "pwn teh noobs."

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7146

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

8/21/12 11:29:03 AM#42

PvP, imo, 'sucks' because of 2 things in these games. The first is the usual broken reliance on gear/ class/ levels. The second is the players. Western MMORPGers, ESPECIALLY PVPers, are assholes, and whats more they take pride in being assholes, and because it takes an asshole to enjoy spending their leisure time in the company of other assholes and they have affirmed and re-affirmed the behaviour to one another and developed this culture where the coolest kid is the biggest asshole.

 

I hope I haven't over used the word asshole here.

  RoyalPhunk

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 181

8/21/12 11:41:02 AM#43

PvPrs are some of the best gamers around, they look at the math behind everything to squeeze the most out of a build, they experiment with new builds and gear/skill combinations. They do things that my lazy ass would never attempt. Are they ego driven douchebags yes many of them are, but they also frequently are skilled and raise the average level of play in a match.   PVE fotm builds frequently come from PVPrs.

There is however a subclass of lazy PVPrs bent on getting to max everything and then destroying everyone under them, these people are usually not skilled, AFK in warfronts, race to max level and AFK to max gear. Then they destroy everyone. The good thing about GW2 and other games sure to come out is that this is not going to be possible for these people anymore.

 
  BadSpock

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 7699

Logic be damned!

8/21/12 11:51:35 AM#44

Only ways to do PvP "right" in a MMO is either like EvE online or like sPvP in GW2.

1. Open world, cause/effect, consequence heavy

2. Instanced, even, fair, skill based, eSport

 

DAOC or something like GW2 WvW can certainly work as well, but for every 1 awesome even-balanced totally fun super cool epic battle there are 9 zerg/blitz or zero-contact roams.

I do think the 1 super awesome epic fight is worth the 9 zerg/blitz zero-contact roams however.

And I enjoy eSport like sPvP as it is about skill and build/strategy.

 

I also think EvE has some really poorly designed systems/mechanics but that they certainly have the intent correct - risk vs. reward.

Now Playing:
Looking Towards: Destiny

  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1280

8/21/12 11:52:59 AM#45

Always PvP for me. Always more fun fighting a human than A.I. A.I is no way near as challenging as taking on a human brain.

I come from a background in FPS PvP, where pretty much everyone was equal, no stats etc. I know alot of MMORPG PvP is based off of whos got the better gear.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

8/21/12 11:54:42 AM#46

PVP with minimal level disparity is fun for me. PVP where gear isn't an IWIN button is fun for me. PvP where politics and clan/guild resources or territory are at stake is really fun for me. Adam, like you, i enjoy when the PVP is more about a night of combat than about the stats required to enjoy that night of combat. I think that's why i enjoyed Ultima Online's PVP so much.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  kilzfire

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/06
Posts: 9

8/21/12 12:00:59 PM#47
True PvP has a place in all MMO's.  There are those of us that live for the risk vs reward aspect of hard core PvP.  There is nothing like the adrenaline rush of taking on a real human opponent with the chance of them taking your items or the possiblity of receiving the spoils of war.  Meridian 59 had it right back in 1996 and for whatever reason no one seems to be able to replicate what they did and still make money.  I think you can take WoW or any other similar theme park style game and leave room for high end risk vs reward PvP.  The problem is companies don't see the money in it so we will all do without and wait for Darkfall 2, The War Z, DayZ etc to get our fix.  The other option is League of Legends style PvP but in America at least eSports have not gotten the attention they deserve quite yet.
 
  Adiaris

Novice Member

Joined: 10/12/08
Posts: 382

8/21/12 12:11:04 PM#48

Am I the only one to remember how much fail WAR's rvr was? It's not the first time lately I see it mentioned as a positive example of it done right... But that's kind of not what I remember it being at all, nor what most people used to comment about it way back when. Maybe it changed? I admit I wouldn't know, I never went back for a second look.

Oh, and the article reads like a whiny rant. Pvp in a box is pvp in a box, and it isn't going anywhere but neither is it the cause of the world's problems. Trick is just to limit it's balance affecting pve and the game as a whole. If people want to massacre each other in a pvp box let them, as long as there's other options and other games I don't see the issue really.

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3141

Veni, Vidi, Converti

8/21/12 12:22:17 PM#49

If the PvP is not balanced as in esport (gear/levels/zergs/class/skill combinations) it's broken system. If the PvP is inconsequential, it can become repetive (re-rez/spam buttons again).

Esport/team-based and open-sandbox pvp potentially can be the best gameplay in mmorpgs though, if combat is the main emphasis, then playing against a human > AI is more fun. Except if the player is there for other toxic reasons. 

  Overfiend138

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/30/06
Posts: 50

8/21/12 12:23:51 PM#50

Instanced "Warzones" and lack of death penalty, not to mention the invention of "No drop" items,  spoiled people and killed PvP . In order to sell a game the Devs have to make sure that the player is assured nothing bad will happen to them out of fear they will have a fit and flock somewhere where they can be assured they won't have a challenge to worry about and can get back to chasing that carrot on a stick. 

  xSaintx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/05
Posts: 76

8/21/12 12:23:53 PM#51


Originally posted by Rohn
I agree with a lot of the article.

The ONE significant thing that separates the MMORPG from other games is the persistent world filled with a potentially large virtual society.

Modern themepark MMOs tear that world apart, and make it a collection of meaningless "games within a game".  Immersion-killing?  Absolutely.  It runs counter to the most basic concept of the MMORPG, yet here we are.

I understand completely what Adam is saying when he says current MMOs are overly "gamey".  The virtual world is gone, the RPG replaced with an arcade game.

Spot-freakin'-on!


Yep. I agree 100% with the article and you.

  kjempff

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/12/04
Posts: 684

Make worlds not stories

8/21/12 12:25:27 PM#52

Your points have been repeated to death, but still true. And to those pvp lovers opposing these facts, you are considered a whiner, and whiners are weak and therefore easy prey. Its not just their right but also their duty to feed on and rise above what they consider loosers. You loose, and everytime you try to fight back with reasoning, you only rejustify that they are right.

Pvp is not for everyone, it is not even for that many, but as a concept it is much stronger and easier to design than pve mechanics. So there is your problem, over time pvp suffocates pve, because it is just more effecient as cost per customer. Abandon this corrupted genre, mmorpgs just arent made anymore.

  games72

Novice Member

Joined: 4/21/06
Posts: 31

8/21/12 12:28:09 PM#53

Haha Adam you're not boring you sure entertained me with that article, even if I pretty much disagree. 

I think a lot of pvp frustration comes from people uninformed about pvp (not by their own fault, just not any info in game).  They assume their PVE setup of 1-0 keys and wasd movement should work in PVP - when that's usually a terrible setup.  Like tab targeting, most games I've played recently have an optional keybind in the settings where you can bind a key to target what your mouse is over.  Ths is huge in pvp. 

Also a lot of those pvp asses can be beat if you just search youtube for tips on a good keyboard layout and tactics/rotations against each class and practice.  Sure, sometimes you just need better gear but there is strategy involved with staying alive and winning... anyway, enough of that...

I've found that there are just as many assholes in PVE with their "only 130k hps? noob!" remarks, so at least in pvp I have a chance at killing them.  I've found I'd rather play an instanced pvp match that takes 25 mins over a 3 hour dungeon instance when I'm queing up with random people.  This is assuming max level in today's theme park mmos where you've already "been there done that."

I guess we can only play what we're given and sadly there isn't as much variety out there right now as games are claiming.  At least imho.

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

8/21/12 12:28:22 PM#54

"I started playing online games in 1999 (yeah I'm going there). Player versus player-ing was but a pipe dream: the sparkle in some kid's eye, or in Mark Jacobs' showering cubicle"

Umm, no...it wasnt. Every major MMORPG at the time already had it. Meridian 59 had it, The Realm Online had it, Ultima Online had it, EverQuest had it...Asherons Call had it...hell, NeverWinter Nights Online had it back in 1991...

  jensen_34

Novice Member

Joined: 10/19/06
Posts: 53

8/21/12 12:38:51 PM#55

English have been ganking weaker countries for centuries. The psychological need for this kind of game play should be nothing of a surprise, especially to an englishman.

  CoolWaters

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/05
Posts: 92

8/21/12 12:43:55 PM#56
Shadowbane.

Your didn't play it.
  Muerte_X

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/11
Posts: 104

8/21/12 12:47:05 PM#57

I respect your opinion in this article, but for me I differ on the reason I feel modern pvp sucks. In themeparks, instanced pvp for points on an almost never ending gear treadmill, in the same battlefields you have done 500 times, where gearscore ussually determines the outcome before skill, with no impact on the world, is not really exciting or fulfilling to me.

The pvp I loved, where strategy and commradery was forefront, was Shadowbane. No instances. You were fighting for the good xp spot, runedropper, the mine that gave resources to your guild, the city you had build with your friends, or a city you are trying to seige for some political relationship gone bad. Yes, there was a lot of ganking of lowbies, and that and the bugginess of the game most likely led to it's downfall.

But to compare a win in some instanced BG to the thrill of defending your city from a seige is not even close. Also take into account that BG you just did was with a bunch of randoms you will most likely not see again as they exit the instance, to people you have been building that city with for months or years. You didn't get any points. You weren't working towards that super uber pants of pwnage. The thrill of victory, in and of itself, was intoxicating.

I look forward to the new iterations of this kind of structure, both in the Repop and ArcheAge.

Often lurking, rarely posting

  ShakyMo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/21/11
Posts: 7246

8/21/12 12:47:44 PM#58
Instancing
Gear grinds (especially when you have separate pve / pvp stats)
Mudflation
Players that are doing it for "phatlewt" rather than bragging rights, realm / guild pride and the fun of it.

Basicly everything wow brought to the table destroys pvp.
  sdrs101

Novice Member

Joined: 4/13/11
Posts: 1

8/21/12 12:53:44 PM#59

Enjoyed the read =) Tho I do feel some points are misguided, this is only my opinion! Firstly.. you say PvP is a "non-skilled, jab fest" yet you are aweful at it, so PvE requires? Skill is not just mashing your buttons faster than the other guy in all cases, there is also the aspect of thinking faster, predicting, planning a fight to your advantage or simply put, keeping your cool. I believe this is a large part of pvp and not just in an MMO. The same skill set plays its role in PvE, those who panic often end up losing a battle before its really lost, I have seen it countless times raiding.

The second is.. what really has a lasting effect on a MMO world, I do not have a hugely broad experience of MMO's - WoW, War, Rift, SWTOR and trials of others! From the experiences I have had, PvP nor PvE have any meaninful lasting effect on the world ( its something most MMO players dream about im sure! ). Invariably things reset, and here you go again.. out to kill the same bosses, to do the same events in a zone to reach the same goal you were aiming for last week, month or even year. Granted there are some events that do last, these are usually related to major patches, which.. happen in PvP too.

You might hate PvP but its not all that different. If there is a close community or regular players you are facing, you find your "bosses" your personal mission to finally beat the guy who has been destroying you all week, your quests to get better looking / superior gear. The players are what makes it dynamic.

We all want a true persistent dynamic and immersive game. We play the aspect of our chosen game we prefer, while dreaming of mechanics we want to see.

 
 
  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

8/21/12 12:57:56 PM#60

I think "PvP Right" is another of those semantic null forum expressions.  Seems to be about a hundred different ideas of what "right" means, in this thread alone.

Damn, it's almost like a roleplay thread.  The only constant is, no one does it 'right' (except whoever's speaking, of course).

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

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