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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Raid Haters are coming out of the woodwork.

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285 posts found
  Drealgrin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/05/06
Posts: 170

8/17/12 1:13:05 AM#161
stupid pointless thread is pointless
  Xzen

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2642

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

8/17/12 1:13:17 AM#162
Originally posted by Grimlock426
Originally posted by Krimzin

 

There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

You missed a reason.

Raiding is only fun the first couple times you down a boss, and so people get tired of slogging through the same boss fights ad nauseum hoping for the one piece of gear to drop.

Nailed it. I like running raids and some times running them to help someone else complete the content. I don't like running the same raid over and over again.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/17/12 1:16:26 AM#163
Originally posted by Asuran24

Well wow does do alot of content as many of their raids when they need to add additional content (like when the playerbase steam-rolls the exsting content) does not normally just toss out a raid alone, but instead does push out a raid an afew instances (like in lk you had the 5 man toc with the raid of tocm and then you also had ice crown with the raid having three smaller instances packaged with it, yet it was not till we actually completed or it was needed that more instannced came out.). Even looking back in bc which ahad alott of content updates in it complaed to either lk or cata they produced it when the need arose really.To me though as you largely stated with raidig taking more resources (also with gw2 not using a subb they need to further make sure their money is used wisely) raiding/large scale content would need to be more of a cash shop (none gem purchase) style affair, where the players actually that want the content would fuel the demand an pay for it solely, an so that way it would both allow for raiders to enoy it while also give them a way of not wasteing the money of those that would not use it on it.

Of course, the content patch before Icecrown was sparse in content -- ToC had a short 5-man and a short raid.  No doubt a lot of time was being spent on Icecrown.

I don't think you really understand what was going on in WoW or why after BC they switched to getting everyone to raid.  The Devs explicitly stated most of their time was spent designing raids...and less than 5% of the player base even saw all the raid content.  There simply isn't a big market for people who want really challenging raids.  In WoW the burden was borne by all the non-raiders and their sub fees.  Eventually they decided to try to get everyone to raid to justify the time they were spending on it.

There simply wouldn't be enough people willing to buy such content to keep it going in a cash shop (assuming they hired people just to work on raiding).  Especially since the higher you priced it at, the fewer would buy it.  To say nothing of how it might negatively impact the rest of the game when balance changes hit that were because of raiding.

When you look at MMOs and how people want to play them...raiding just doesn't make a lot of economic sense.  One could argue WoW has done well in spite of investing heavily in raiding, not because of it.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/17/12 1:20:48 AM#164
Originally posted by OldManFunk

I think the biggest argument against raiding in GW2 is that adding more people to encounters would not improve the game experience. I remember the 40 man raids in WoW and I don't think that they were any more fun than the 10 mans or even some of the harder 5 man dungeons. Adding more players just makes it more difficult to organize groups. Adding more players to an encounter doesn't make the content any more difficult.

 

Well, that's not entirely true.  It makes the content more difficult.  Say there's a 1% chance per person that they'll get distracted and cause a wipe on a boss.  With 5 people, that's about a 95% chance for a stupid mistake to not cause a wipe.  With 25 people, there's just about a 78% chance of getting through (per boss).  So the difficulty does go up....though the sorts of difficulties that go up inherently in large groups aren't ones that I find a lot of fun in managing.

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

8/17/12 1:21:43 AM#165

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5566

8/17/12 1:26:13 AM#166
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

sPvP

WvW

Dungeons

Orr

Crafting

Exploration

Achievements

Grind out best gear (multiple specs)

 

I'm hoping they have some interesting dungeon achievements that are really difficult to pull off. I'll probably personally spend a ton of time in sPvP with dungeons and WvW as a side activity. Unless Orr is just amazing.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  nolic1

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 673

8/17/12 1:29:34 AM#167
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/46603-faq-equipment-attributes-and-you-updated/

You can work on this or just do anything you want really run around any zone you want play in Orr go look for cool areas off the beaten path to explore. Hell just in what we had in BWE1 I spent most of my time running through open world dungeons playing in them cause they had alot to them and did not even see the Ascalon dugeon till the end of BWE2 and did it 3 times 2 times story and 1 time explorer mode which was hard to finish.

 

The PvP isnt bad to me but I like PvE more I am an old school Pen and paper player so I will make my way in the world like I would in Pen and Paper.


To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/17/12 1:30:15 AM#168
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

Well, there are 8 dungeons at release.  They all have explorable modes after defeating them once, which means they are tougher and you can go different ways and fight different enemies.  It's also possible that given the lack of the Holy Trinity, you won't see fights being so choreographed -- but I haven't played them yet so I don't know.

Regarding massive dynamic events, there are tons of them out there, and you scale down in level for the zone you are in.  So there's lot of content to see.

Regular Dynamic Events are there too to explore with friends or by yourself.  Of course zones will change and be different if you visit them again, so having them get old will take a while.  They also reward exploring with new things to find.

There are various silly events and things like that which you can do in towns.  As well as doing things to get skills and so forth.

 

That sounds a lot better to me than doing the same 10 dungeons over and over and over again.  Dungeons that are the same every time you do them.  Then moving on to doing the same raid again and again and again until you want to gouge your eyes out.  There's more variety in GW2 than there is in a game like WoW.

This is especially true when you consider that YES, you can go back and do a zone you haven't done before in WoW.  But largely it is as boring as heck since everything dies in one hit.  Level scaling in GW will make sure such things are more interesting, and running into people will be more fun.

  User Deleted
8/17/12 1:31:03 AM#169
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by Asuran24
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by colddog04

I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.

Agreed on getting several dungeons verses getting 1 raid.

The biggest difference between the two is that making and running raids eats up immense resources from devs and players.  Balancing things for 25 people is really difficult.  Then players have to do a lot of work just on scheduling to even play them.  Ugh.  I'd rather get other content instead.

I agree in the long run i would rather have mre small scale content added to a game then larger scale content, but not to the point of fully omitting any large scale from the game (For me DE content is kinda a mix of both as it is build to be used by all sizes of groups largely as such i would say it is more of variable content then small or large scale.). Yet here is the issue in many games even when they add a raid to the game's content line-up it is never just the raid normally, as it normally has several smaller scale content instances packaged in with it or quite close by, but the other issue is gw2 being b2p might change their ability to keep up such a content upkeep. Even using wow as an example they got many of their raids either came with an adition instance/s or the playerbase was not even yet to where they needed more content to pay thru (such as when many of the bc raids hit in wow the playerbase was still largely trying to clear many fo the herocs and first few raids.).

But really look at WoW.  Look at how much time and effort goes into Raids and how the number of raids they add is comparable to the number of dungeons in content updates (expansions are different, but content expansions after that, not so much).  The Devs themselves have commented on how raid making eats up immense amounts of time, which is why WotLK was designed to get as many people raiding as possible (and Cata continued that philosophy).  Burning Crusade was different because Raids weren't being designed for most people to get through them...so most people didn't.

It isn't like one raid boss takes as much time as one dungeon boss.  The raid boss is MUCH harder to design because of the fact you have to deal with a lot more combos of class abilities and stacking of those abilities.  One reason why classes have become more and more similar in WoW over time (another bad thing because of raids).

When one considers that instead of making a raid you could get something like 5+ dungeons or an entirely new zone or more...I'd rather go with zones and dungeons.  Isolated big bosses that appear in the open world and don't require the same immense amount of balancing are better.

I want to play a raidless game not because I hate the very idea of raiding*, but because I enjoy all the others things more than raiding.  Raiding means a LOT less of all the other stuff.

 

*Which is not to say that I don't have a lot of problems with how traditional raiding is worked into the game.

I always thought that was an issue as it made it that you had to push people as you said into the content, by makign the prior content much easier to clear. I though always thought that the ways of getting players into the current raiding scheme was more of a issue, as it made prior content (raid or instance) worthless and unused, where as in bc to progress thru raiding or into raiding you needed to do the proor raids (till later on around sunwell mostly. ). Myself i would love to still see raids that are made as the ultimate pve difficulty yet that they are very few in number in the world (like getting one for every 10 to 15 instances or content updates), as it would allow the devs to slowly build an make a actual raid that would be trully deserving of that classification that would take extreme amount of play time an work making the resources spent actually seem less as the amount of enjoyment an play gotten out of it would be over a much longer period of time. I myself i would rather get a mixture of a raid once or twice a year, while inbetween i get alot of other content, bbut the raids are actually challenging enouph that it takes me sevral months or a year to finish it. I agree wth you that having alot of raiding will reduce the overall quality of the rest of the game, but yet sometimes adding small measures of somethign (like raiding) can actually help to keep thgins interesting so long as it is not allowed to get too out of control. An that is the issue without a good flow of money coming in constently raiding might be too much of a content for them t prdce witout focusing on it too much, or supplimenting it via cs or other such methods.

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

8/17/12 1:33:26 AM#170
Originally posted by Nitth

Lol @ reptitive grind..its only going to be replaced by another repetitive grind..

Hmm...repetitive grind I NEED to do in order to stay competitive even though I don't want to...or repetitive grind that's completely optional and can be ignored by all but the most dedicated. One I can come back in 6 months and know I'm not at a disadvantage because I skipped it, and one I can participate in on the rare occasion I can be bothered to just to be part of a group, rather than needing to grind one set of gear just to get another just to get another just to get YET ANOTHER before I can play with the people I actually want to.

I could go on.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  alexanys1982

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/08
Posts: 278

WTB a sandbox mmo with WoW's polish.

8/17/12 1:35:37 AM#171
Serious raiding takes hours even with a good leader, from my personal p.o.v I dont see how you can have a life and still seriously raid. I tried it and it doesn't work, all these showoffs claiming to have the hottest gf's and dozens of friends have got to be lying because I been there...the hot gf and the friends make it impossible.

  semantikron

Novice Member

Joined: 11/26/07
Posts: 260

8/17/12 1:37:40 AM#172
some people don't function well outside of environments where communication is unilateral and roles are tightly defined

Charr: Outta my way.
Human: What's your problem?
Charr: Your thin skin.

  gaeanprayer

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/08
Posts: 2360

8/17/12 1:39:20 AM#173
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.

 

The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.

"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."

  Fion

Novice Member

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8/17/12 1:39:28 AM#174

My reason for disliking raiding?

IT'S F*CKING BORING!

 

Seriously though, I stopped liking raids in WoW BC when I was playing a hunter and could practically go afk in a raid, make a sandwich and still get top dps. I was hitting 2 or sometimes 3 macros and generately at a range where I never got attacked. If it weren't a bannable offense I could have very easily written a script to bot through raiding.

I could also say that once I realized I was PAYING a company to spend 12 hours twice a week forming a raid and then farming a dungeon just for that oh-so-precious dopamine hit when I actually got something, was a weak mechanic only designed to keep me paying.

... and you guessed it.. I stopped paying. I did grab WotLK and played casually but my raiding was reserved for weekend guildwide runs that were more casual and fun than an actual gear grind.

  Loke666

Elite Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16847

8/17/12 1:45:33 AM#175
Originally posted by Krimzin

...

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid

...

1. Yeah, that is common with older players that have gotten families and work. Raiding in itself is a full time work.

2. Those people will be dissapointed if they get GW2, they will die a lot. Raids are scripted so if you know what to do things are not that hard. GW2s dungeons on the other hand will force you to act fast again and again.

3. That is just rude.

4. Some might be.

The main reasons I raid so little nowadays is however that it is so bloody repetetive. Once you figure out how to do a raid it is not hard unless someone botches the whole thing up, so you do the same thing over and over and that becomes old after a while.

Raids are just made so the devs need to add as little content as possible between expansions. They do have their charm but they have frankly become less and less fun over the years.

In GW2 you can jump in a really hard dungeon without spending eons grinding the gear, you will complete it if you are really good or die if you ain´t, but the best players will win there. Just reading on wiki and having the right gear aint enough.

And I do know some raiders that sucks but know the right people, one or 2 lousy players can slide through most raids. In GW2s dungeons all 5 players needs to be really good or you will wipe.

  gessekai332

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/07
Posts: 885

8/17/12 1:58:03 AM#176

raiding is stupid because you are forced to schedule in video games into your real life calendar up to 3 times per week every week to get an item that will be obviously be replaced next month. Many of us are not kids anymore and have more important priorities. i'm too old to be scheduling dinner plans and get togethers around raid nights.

Most memorable games: AoC(Tryanny PvP), RIFT, GW, GW2, Ragnarok Online, Aion, FFXI, FFXIV, Secret World, League of Legends (Silver II rank)

  someforumguy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3518

8/17/12 1:59:31 AM#177

I don't have anything against raiding in itself. It is the need for repeating it 327898732 times to complete some armourset what puts me off. And then an expansion is being added where you start this cycle over. This is why I never participate in the gear threadmill anymore , because it is bloody BOOOOORING! But completing a raid one time can be a fun experience of course. Raiding is usually associated with the worst possible gear treadmills, that is why a lot of ppl hate it.

And what always amazes me is that the same ppl who first struggle to do a raid, then start telling everyone it is easy. And they don't realise that they are still bad, but now have better protection from their new gear. Better gear doesn't make you better lol. It just makes the encouter even more easier.

As for skill, most raiding doesn't take much skill and the level of cooperation that is needed is plain basic. Otherwise it wouldn't be possible to herd 40 mediocre players through it. Herding yes, is a better description then actual teamplay. And dps parsers which are also heavily associated with this, I don't get it that players don't understand that you only have time to check this because it is so bloody easy! Raiding is so overrated, it is not funny anymore. In any actual challenging gameplay you wouldn't be able to watch telly in between.

Any skill based PVP requires actual team effort. Not just following some script. But having to anticipate your opponents and react fast to changes , as team. PVE will never come close to that.

As for GW2. I bet that the dungeons in explorable mode will be very tough. And fortunately not in the stand still and spam your rotation kind of way.

  User Deleted
8/17/12 2:09:22 AM#178
Tbh I liked the whole final mission thing at the end of a campaign in gw1. It was raiding done the right way IMO. You would finish an incredibly hard story line instance with around 8 people that required some coordination and you would get the all the gear you needed at the end as a reward (perfect stat good looking weapon) after you finished the mission and you would never need to do it again unless you wanted like a hardmode achievement or something. Never for gear though. Hopefully gw2 does something like it except make it much more difficult and challenging. And I don't exactly hate raiding either cause it adds to the rpg in mmorpg by progressing the storyline. Although I do hate the gear grind
  User Deleted
8/17/12 2:15:10 AM#179

The only reason I can think of that someone would really "need" to raid is to gear up for the next higher tier of raiding. But if all they are interested in is just seeing content, completing a raid once or twice is probably enough. Most people don't even care about that. Not enough bang for their time investment.

 

I'm sure everyone would like to have nicer gear, but it really isn't necessarry if you don't intend to progress into harder content (if it exists). 

  rykim86

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 238

8/17/12 2:17:55 AM#180

Whatever happened to the "I play because it's fun" mentatlity?  

If you get bored for a time, take a break.  Play something else or do something else.  It's not really the genre itself that's the problem IMO.  It's the players themselves who don't realize they're on the verge or have burned out. 

Chillax and just play.  No need to treat it like the Olympics or a job.

Raiding had it's place in history, but I believe it'll be one of those arcaich features within a decade.

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