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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Raid Haters are coming out of the woodwork.

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285 posts found
  User Deleted
8/16/12 10:42:35 PM#121
Originally posted by fiontar
Originally posted by Phaleg31
Originally posted by Enigmatus
Originally posted by lizardbones
I would really like to know what is so threatening about people liking the stance Anet has taken towards raiding, PvP progression and PvE progression. Is the way they wrote a video game so frightening that it really requires insulting the people who like it? I get wanting a game to have traditional raiding activities, but why does the lack of those activities make some people so angry and defensive?

Well, it's probably because in other games, the needs of the PVE, PVP, and Raiding Progression groups tend to be catered to far more heavily than the Roleplayers, Crafters and Altaholics (and everyone who doesn't fit in these categories, which is the vast majority). They feel special as a result.

Now comes GW2, where these things are handled somewhat differently. All of a sudden, the needs of the special groups don't matter as much anymore; they just become another minority of players, nothing more, nothing less.

And some people HATE that. Their position of power is being threatened and they will fight virtual tooth and nail to keep their exclusivity and privilege.

 

"Position of power?"

 

What in the hell are you talking about? That makes zero logic kiddo...Pure silliness

No, it actually makes perfect sense. Being a vocal minority that demands 95%+ of non-expansion content developement is a "position of power". Catering to the 5% that are power players has largely been responsible for the lack of innovation seen in the genre since WoW launched.

It's been much easier for many developers to just skimp on PvE content and worldspace, in favor of a focus on providing an end game raiding treadmill. This only seemed reasonable because of the attitude among the vocal power-playing minority that "PvE is nothing but the boring stuff" that you need to do before you reach "end game".

This^ 

Exactly, and now that the majority is speaking up and making a stand against the minority, suddenly we're seeing all kinds of whining on the forums about why the games are changing because i can tell you, all of the games will be changing soon. It's only a matter of time, the total population of gamers isn't growing fast and mmo gamers are a population that moves alot and when large numbers move they affect games that need subs. We'll see what happens next tho just like I and many others predicted what happened to SWTOR, I and many others are now predicting the whole face of mmo gaming will finally be moving forward instead of being stuck in 2004 and despite the whining and complaining it IS partially due to the work on GW2 and at Arenanet to bring to light the issues of mmo genre and to help bring about change through the players who have experienced their gameplay.

Just as the games are almost all going F2P, eventually every single one will be there that has a sub, the games will be updating to improve upon their gameplay.

  User Deleted
8/16/12 10:42:46 PM#122
Originally posted by yaoming36

People need to stop saying there is no raiding...

Lets see what is the definition of raiding : raid is a type of mission in a video game in which a very large number of people (larger than the normal team size set by the game) attempt to defeat a boss monster

 

If we go with this definition of raiding, then YES guild wars 2 does HAVE raiding. These raids are usually open world but you can still make teams to do these certain dynamic chains

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFYI8HxKWU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU

 

See this event chain? In the second video you go into a "mini dungeon". I tried doing this event with a random group of people and the first part was quite easy. However when we actually went inside the "mini dungeon" it became a lot tougher and I knew right away that I needed a coordinated group of players to succeed in there. Just take a look at the second part of the run... you need teamwork and good communication to succeed.

There are many boss fights at the end of a DE chain that are similar to this, so GW2 definately has raiding. Just not all instanced that you're so used to.

I'm okay with that; I'm just tired of traditional raiding in instances and where you need rigid schedules and all that crud.

  ajayazir

Novice Member

Joined: 7/21/06
Posts: 108

8/16/12 10:45:44 PM#123

Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.

I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.

Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~

  gotha

Novice Member

Joined: 10/13/05
Posts: 1046

8/16/12 10:53:53 PM#124
 If you are looking for a challenge test your leadership skills on a random rabble gather together to fight a world boss.  
  yaoming36

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 190

8/16/12 10:58:33 PM#125
Originally posted by ajayazir

Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.

I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.

Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~

Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5623

8/16/12 11:01:36 PM#126
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by ajayazir

Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.

I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.

Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~

Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.

Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?

 

I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Sojhin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 205

8/16/12 11:02:06 PM#127

This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.

 

Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience? 

 

 

 

  User Deleted
8/16/12 11:05:44 PM#128
Originally posted by Sojhin

This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.

 

Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience? 

Nothing wrong with it; it's just that we want one game for people who aren't the 5%. Raiders already own every other game, so let us have one at least.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5623

8/16/12 11:07:57 PM#129
Originally posted by Sojhin

This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.

 

Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience? 

I don't see a problem with that at all as long as they keep the treadmill in check. The challenge and prestige of accomplshing instanced raids in GW2 might be fun for a lot of people. Including me.

 

But really, I would prefer that they focused on things other than raids. What we see happening in a lot of other MMORPGs is a very strong focus of their content updates on raiding. Adding a few 10+ person dungeons to GW2 doesn't seem so out of the question to me personally. But focusing a majority of effort on these things seems excessive to me.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

8/16/12 11:08:09 PM#130
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by ajayazir

Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.

I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.

Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~

Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.

Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?

 

I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.

To be fair, we don't know how difficult these encounters will be in higher level zones, like Orr.

Either way, it's a good thing that MoP is coming out in a month. I'm sure that Blizzard will include a few new raids to satisfy the raiders. Plus Rift is coming out with a new expansion, there's bound to be a raid or two there.

 

  Blakkrskyrr

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/19/08
Posts: 233

He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose.

8/16/12 11:09:11 PM#131
Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.
I’ve been on these forums for well over 8 years and it is simply amazing how attitudes and trends change on a very regular basis. When EQ was in its glory days it was all about raiding. If you didn’t raid you were a scrub. When WoW released, raiding was still king of the mountain. Since then many games have come and gone, raiding has remained in most of them until recently. GW2 is bringing a new type of MMO to the marketplace that has no end game raiding to speak of. On the forums for months now you see numerous posts revolving around “Thank god there is no raiding in GW2 or Raids aren’t needed”.

After reading these type posts for some time I’ve come to a realization that most people fall into a certain category of non-raiders.
There are typically a few reasons people don’t like Raiding.

• They don’t have time in real life to dedicate to an organized guild structure that it takes to raid successfully.
• They have been ridiculed in past games for their lack of skill, Example... Get out of the fire dumbass.
• They don’t have a personality to speak of so they don’t play well with others.
• They are too lazy to do the work, example… They don’t want to get the necessary gear it takes to raid


I’ve raided in every game I’ve played over the last 14 years and I absolutely love it.
I guess because I’m ex-military, I love the teamwork involved in raiding. Getting dedicated players together on a regular basis to down raid mobs is so much more fun than doing simple dynamic events.

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

i loved vanilla WoW.  I played through BC and a little of Wrath, but not once did I do a raid.  WoW was ridiculously fun until BC came out.  Raiding became the end all be all and was more like a carrot than fun.  I did things with friends and people I met in game and had a blast doing that, but raiding took too much time and I had a life outside the game.  I think raiding large scale for hours nonstop is a waste of time.  I can do the explorable mode, but anything beyond 2 hours of the same gameplay or instanced area is too much for me.  WoW lost its magic with BC, and I hope GW2 doesn't end up making the same marketing choices.

  nolic1

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 679

8/16/12 11:12:50 PM#132
Well I see it does not stop people complain so much about GW2 not having instance raids is getting old guys come on 1 game out of over 750+ with instance raiding isnt the end of the world. I dont raid at all anymore caue I find it stupied to make such huge games to only have you get to the high lvl content leaving the other 95% of the game wasted except for lvling. Thats why I say a company that would make a lobby based raid game would be great for raiders but the complained they would not have an open world why your only playing to raid  the rest of the game is wasted.


To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  yaoming36

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 190

8/16/12 11:20:28 PM#133
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by ajayazir

Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.

I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.

Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~

Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.

Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?

 

I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.

Yes we failed... he kept killing us all, and the deaths just piled up when we tried to rez people, so eventually we gave up. I later realized we needed to pickup/drink some potion that gave invinsibility for a couple seconds in order to beat him but that could never have happened with the pick up group that I was playing with..

 

Also if you look here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU midway into the vid in the underwater room you'll see that you need good coordination just to unlock a door.

  Sojhin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 205

8/16/12 11:22:54 PM#134
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Sojhin

This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.

 

Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience? 

I don't see a problem with that at all as long as they keep the treadmill in check. The challenge and prestige of accomplshing instanced raids in GW2 might be fun for a lot of people. Including me.

 

But really, I would prefer that they focused on things other than raids. What we see happening in a lot of other MMORPGs is a very strong focus of their content updates on raiding. Adding a few 10+ person dungeons to GW2 doesn't seem so out of the question to me personally. But focusing a majority of effort on these things seems excessive to me.

 

I prefer that GW2 does not go to the excessive extreme either but at the same time the game seems to suffer atm because it has not allowed for anything other then instanced pvp on one end of the scale, esport pvp in the middle, and pve content on the other end that is--throw another body at it and win. There does not seem enough freedom for the people who want to push the limits at all levels of gameplay with the artificial limiters and I am unconvinced that the esport middle option can last if the other two options do not have much risk vs reward.

 

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5623

8/16/12 11:23:28 PM#135
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by ajayazir

Raiding or no raiding, I just wish mmo's were more community dependent/driven. Majority of the people I run into solo, b-line it to the max level, party only when necessary.

I think the best thing raiding has to offer are the people you meet and friends you make in your adventures, but even the new model for raids don't need too much attention or know how... zerg everything, get your kill then leave.

Zerging + a bit of movement in raids is the new mmo tactic and battle system~

Not quite 100% sure about this... found a boss in last stress test where even if we had 20+ players it'd be hard to take him down... he was 1-2 shotting us with his aoe and can't dodge it cause it's 360 around him.

Yeah, but you took him down, right? I mean, you guys never failed at taking him down, did you?

 

I think the traditional guys are looking for difficulty levels that take weeks to complete and get right together.

Yes we failed... he kept killing us all, and the deaths just piled up when we tried to rez people, so eventually we gave up.

I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.

 

Are you talking about the fire shaman by the way?

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/16/12 11:26:24 PM#136

I have raided a lot in WoW -- in fact I've led a lot of raids -- and there are some things I like about it.

I liked going on mostly blind and figuring out the battles.

I liked working with other people and being organized.

Basically the teamwork and intellectual challenge is fun.

 

Unfortunately, there's a lot to not like.

I don't like how going in blind is really hard to do.  It's hard to find people who will accept doing that.

I don't like having to look up the boss fights and strategies, otherwise people will complain.

I don't like having to tell a good friend they can't come because they aren't good enough.

I don't like balance changes to classes because of raiding when problems don't appear anywhere else in the game.

I don't like how choreographed all the fights are.  They all get old really quickly.  Admittedly, this isn't an inherent problem with raiding, but it is a difficult problem to overcome if you want large battles that are tightly tuned.

I don't like how random the loot drops are and fights that would occasionally happen (even with a distribution system...heck, fights over the distribution system are annoying too).

I don't like how it forces you and all your friends to conform to a tight schedule and spend hours and hours on it.

I don't like the amount of resources making tightly balanced raids eats up.  I'd rather it be spent on other things.  I'd rather have several tough 5-mans or a new GW2 zone than a new raid.

I don't care for a challenge design that's "you make 3 mistakes and everyone dies", you must do everything just SO.  I prefer fighting that is more "realistic" than that.  You go in with some tactics and general strategy, and then you have to think on your feet.  5-mans this isn't too bad, but when you're dealing with 10 or 25 people, it's annoying as heck.  Unfortunately, it's an inherent problem of the design philosophy of raiding and raiding games as we know them.

Nor do I care for the fact that raids in traditional games give gear that makes 5-mans none too challenging.  I don't like how content becomes obsolete.  There'd be a lot of pressure on Arena.Net to do this if they had raiding.

 

Overall I prefer tough 5-mans to raiding in past games.  The game itself gives you much more feedback about how well you are doing in a 5-man (since you are 20% or so of the fighting force, rather than 4-10%).  It's easier to get 5-mans together.  You can decide to do one spontaneously.  It's easier to work with someone if they are not doing well -- and one friend doing badly only hurts 4 other people as opposed to 9 or 24 others.

 

I like how GW2 is moving away from all that.  Large PvE battles in the open where anyone can join is a much better way to handle things.  You can still work with your friends that show up and figure out the fight on your own.  I've done that in large-scale PvP and its rewarding.  It won't be tightly balanced, but dungeons please me just fine in that regard, especially given the consequences of tightly balancing things.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5623

8/16/12 11:28:20 PM#137
Originally posted by Sojhin
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by Sojhin

This thread reveals what I believe many GW2 fans share as an ideal--they believe that gear seperation is just not fair--unfortunately the concept of raiding is thrown under the bus. Raiding in several of the mainstream pve mmos can provide a exciting risk vs reward system while not IMHO as exciting as a Shadowbane like no holds bars pvp it still allows the sense of tangible hard earned rewards.

 

Is there something wrong with games creating some content (not the majority of content but some) that allows the top 5 percent of people to enjoy while the 95 percent will unlikely experience? 

I don't see a problem with that at all as long as they keep the treadmill in check. The challenge and prestige of accomplshing instanced raids in GW2 might be fun for a lot of people. Including me.

 

But really, I would prefer that they focused on things other than raids. What we see happening in a lot of other MMORPGs is a very strong focus of their content updates on raiding. Adding a few 10+ person dungeons to GW2 doesn't seem so out of the question to me personally. But focusing a majority of effort on these things seems excessive to me.

I prefer that GW2 does not go to the excessive extreme either but at the same time the game seems to suffer atm because it has not allowed for anything other then instanced pvp on one end of the scale, esport pvp in the middle, and pve content on the other end that is--throw another body at it and win. There does not seem enough freedom for the people who want to push the limits at all levels of gameplay with the artificial limiters and I am unconvinced that the esport middle option can last if the other two options do not have much risk vs reward.

Well, you are leaving out dungeons (which actually are, at least in the BWEs, extremely difficult). And I'm pretty sure you are leaving out WvW (unless you are calling that instanced PvP. It is not instanced). 

 

I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  yaoming36

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 190

8/16/12 11:32:53 PM#138

I know we wiped once on an underwater boss. But we went back and completed it pretty easy after going back a second time. I'm just not sure the difficulty, at least in the content I played, is anywhere close to even a typical WoW normal mode raid. But like Heartless said, it probably does get harder as we get higher. I'm just not expecting the same difficulty we've seen in more traditional raids.

 

Are you talking about the fire shaman by the way?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btldoS1jFbo

 

This guy

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/16/12 11:34:22 PM#139
Originally posted by colddog04

I just don't see that there is a big difference between dungeons and raids. I'd rather them add a few challenging dungeons that 5 people need to figure out than have them add a single raid for 10 - 25 people or whatever.

Agreed on getting several dungeons verses getting 1 raid.

The biggest difference between the two is that making and running raids eats up immense resources from devs and players.  Balancing things for 25 people is really difficult.  Then players have to do a lot of work just on scheduling to even play them.  Ugh.  I'd rather get other content instead.

  User Deleted
8/16/12 11:34:34 PM#140
The thign is that rading is not bad or terrible as many woud make it seem, what is terrible is that factt that either many players or devs out far too much focus on raiding making it that only viable method of prolonged an progressive playing in the games. An this is why you see alot of people hating raiding is that it limits and deggrades the other styles of progression and play in the game, since it normally becomes a pretty big focal point of the game (i mean rift was supposed to bring back alot of open world playing thru the planar rift system they had for pq-like events that would spawn, but failed largely.), I would love to ee games like gw2 an such get a version of raiding in it that is never brought to the fore-front as a focus of the game, but merely as a extention of the game playing for those that wish to experince of play in that style. The issue is that i doubt that many developers or players could keep from making raiding in a game tha focus or end-game of the game itself (ie king of the hill syndrom) over just a further extention (just somethign that can be done with a bunch of good friends that is further challenging then even the exploration dungeons, but yet only offers access to unique items or such for the effort put forth.).
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