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General Discussion  » Raid Haters are coming out of the woodwork.

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285 posts found
  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

8/17/12 12:58:11 PM#241
Originally posted by Drachasor
Originally posted by colddog04

Adding more semantics to the discussion isn't really needed. If you use your description you might as well describe WoW raiding as HT, instanced/non-open world, progression raiding that requires a specific raid group composition to beat. That would be ridiculous.

 

Open World Raiding and Insteanced Raiding ususally get the message accross. Perhaps there are very few people that don't get it right away, but I think the vast majority pretty much "get it."

I don't need to define what sort of raiding WoW has because basically everyone already knows it.  They know it so well that when they use the term "raiding" by itself with no qualifiers, they mean WoW-style raiding.

And we can tell just looking at this thread that, no, most people wouldn't understand from "open world raiding."  EQ had that and it had a lot more in common with WoW than GW2 in terms of raiding.  Heck, WoW had some open-world raid bosses for a time, and I suppose it still has a handful.  But like EQ, fighting this isn't at all like fighting a big DE in GW2.

In short, open world raiding is at best quite vague and at worst it is quite misleading.  Certainly there isn't some clear indication about what is meant when you say GW2 has open world raiding.  Large scale PvE honestly is clearer because it doesn't have all the raiding baggage.

I get you. You just went to the extreme in your last post. I still don't discount anyone that considers what GW2 has to be open world raiding. I think it's valid even if it is a toned down version of what EQ had. Actually, I think GW2 is the very definition of open world raiding.

 

"Large scale PvE" has it's fair share of baggage as well. You could be talking about dynamic events or public quests or rift events. You could be talking about a single boss or a swarm of enemies. You could be describing 100 people or 10 people. You could be talking about attacking keeps or castles. You could be talking about raiding a la WoW. 

 

I still think "open world raiding" is a hell of a lot more descriptive than "Large Scale PvE."

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1874

8/17/12 1:06:34 PM#242
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.

 

The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.

at least you are being honest.  I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame.  It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do. 

Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3100

8/17/12 1:12:38 PM#243
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.

 

The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.

at least you are being honest.  I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame.  It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do. 

Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.

Its part of the end-game, thats the point, its the only point, lets not be dramatic.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10375

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

8/17/12 1:12:47 PM#244


Originally posted by Sojhin
The reason why I use terms such as "top 5 percent" is that that seems a true statement from my life experiences (job, travel, sports, games,dating, etc) to clearly exist. GW2 seems to already have some elements to support the top 5 percent players (esports, ?) yet that is hardly attacked by loyalist fans. On the other end of the playerbase there are people asking for the devs to design some DE's that cannot be zerged, designing some pvp content (outside esport) that has more risk vs reward and now these requests or prefered playstyles are attacked.


More than 5% of WoW's population raids. It did not used to be true, but now, more than 5% of WoW's population completes the current raid content. That's just an observation, it's not terribly important.

It's not the 5% that's meaningful. It's the "top" part. If raiders get grief for anything, that's it. Saying you're in the "top" 5 percent isn't saying you enjoy raiding, it's saying that you are better than the "bottom" 95 percent. It's a more subtle version of gear score and all the annoying behavior that comes from it.

It's one thing to really enjoy raiding. It can be a rewarding experience. It's a different sort of thing to use raiding as the tool by which you measure the worth of other people. I think it would even be fine to use raids to measure a person's worth as a raider. But it never stops there. It's used to measure a person's worth as a gamer.

* Dating? Really? You have performance measurements and life experience to suggest there's a top 5 percent in the realm of dating? Why would you even bother with that? I'm married and I still go on dates with my wife. Does that mean I'm in the top 1%? And Travel? How do you get to be in the top 5 percent of travelers? How do you even measure that? I'm not saying you're wrong about those, but they just don't seem to make sense to me.

** I've been in the "top 5 percent" and there wasn't anything special about doing it. It can't be skill if your gear makes the difference between success and failure. It can't be skill if one of your tanks is asleep or drunk during half the encounters. If it's not skill, then the adjective "top" doesn't apply. Not the way it does in sports.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

8/17/12 1:14:01 PM#245
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.

 

The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.

at least you are being honest.  I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame.  It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do. 

Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.

WoW had some awesome dungeon achievements when the system came out in Lich King. It wasn't just kill 1000x. They had easy ones and insanely hard ones. All of them were of course trivialized because of the gear treadmill, but when Lich King first came out, those things were difficult and fun. Here is a link for some examples:

http://www.wowhead.com/achievements=1.168.14806

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/17/12 1:19:34 PM#246
Originally posted by laokoko

at least you are being honest.  I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame.  It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do. 

Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.

In WoW people did achievements and went back and did low level zones after max level.  And that's in a game where doing that is insanely boring because most achievements are grindy as heck.

In a game where lower level zones aren't going to be the same when you revisit them and won't be a roflstomp, I expect doing these things will become more popular.  And there's lots of other stuff to do beyond them (large scale PvP, WvWvW, arena, going after traits, getting new skills, dungeons, going after certain aethetics, playing with friends as they level, etc).

Seems like there is plenty to do.  That assumes you find the gameplay fun and engaging.  If you don't, then you probably shouldn't be playing.  MMOs have gotten people used to the idea that a game needs to bribe you with goodies in a Skinnerbox to be fun.  If we recall, the vast majority of games, even online games, aren't like this.  You play them because the PLAY is fun in and of itself.  GW2 aims to make sure the play in all zones and areas remains fun and non-static at max level.  That really does give you a lot of stuff to do.

It's very different from traditional MMOs where the content is designed to make you replay the same small set of content over and over again.  GW2 aims to ensure almost all of its content remains playable and fun at max level.  But again, if you don't like the basic DE gameplay, and don't like PVP, your options will be a lot more limited.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3100

8/17/12 1:31:41 PM#247
Originally posted by colddog04
Originally posted by laokoko
Originally posted by gaeanprayer
Originally posted by laokoko

Well, my question is what else is there to do except pvp after you hit max level.

The same old dungeon over and over again?  Farm gold?  Run the same dynamic event over and over again? 

I'm not a raid supporter or anything.  I'm not implying GW2 should have raid.  I'm just wondering what exactly are there to do. 

Pretty much. Same in every other MMO. You're going to run out of content in any MMO eventually until it's had a few years to build up its content library. Raids aren't content, they're reskinned modular components with arbitrary items with arbitrary stats thrown about as a reward to entice players into playing. Once you realize how ridiculous they are, it's easy to see why they're unnecessary. The only part of acquiring raiding gear that's still worthwhile - that being getting cool looking gear that makes you more unique than those who don't raid - still exists in the form of Dungeons.

 

The B2P model is sort of like a way to admit that they're never going to appease the appetites of the content locusts (of which I am one, so don't take that the wrong way). So you suck the life out of it while it's fun, then you walk away until there's an update, expansion or holiday event that interests you. Pretty painless. Other option is to spend your time helping people and friends you might have made through guilds and such. I actually spent nearly all of BWE3 just helping a friend who'd just bought the game. It was pretty satisfying, made my fourth run through the human areas feel as satisfying as the first.

at least you are being honest.  I dont' know why people keep mention DE and achievements as endgame.  It's like those warhammer public quest or achievement books which no one do. 

Oh kill 1000 of this monster, do this dungeon 100 times, kill boss naked for some title or achievement no one cares.

WoW had some awesome dungeon achievements when the system came out in Lich King. It wasn't just kill 1000x. They had easy ones and insanely hard ones. All of them were of course trivialized because of the gear treadmill, but when Lich King first came out, those things were difficult and fun. Here is a link for some examples:

http://www.wowhead.com/achievements=1.168.14806

Thats a good example.  can you imagine how fun that would remain if there was no gear treadmill, i.e gear rewards looked more spectacular, but didnt give you extra stats that allowed you to steamroll the boss and 'heal through' most of the boss skills and events that made the fights engaging and exciting.

 

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (9500 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(850 elementalist)

Now playing GW2/vanilla wow

  arieste

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/04
Posts: 3301

8/17/12 1:33:31 PM#248
Originally posted by heartless

Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community. 

Uhm.. you're wrong.

 

The reason instances became popularized was specifically to stop content from being exclusive to a small percentage of the population that is able compete for open world mobs.  By putting the mobs into private instances, raiding was opened up to anyone and everyone that was able to organize a party.  

 

Prior to instances, "contested" raiding required being in an extremely dedicated guild that required - among other things - putting in massive playtimes in order to be online anytime a mob spawned.

 

With the introduction of raid instances, casual players - like me - that were only able to dedicate a couple of hours at a time to playing, were now able to experience the same content that was previously reserved only for those that had spent the majority of their time online.

 

Not particularly relevant to this discussion, but just wanted to correct you.

 

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  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

8/17/12 1:35:23 PM#249
Originally posted by Bladestrom
Originally posted by colddog04

WoW had some awesome dungeon achievements when the system came out in Lich King. It wasn't just kill 1000x. They had easy ones and insanely hard ones. All of them were of course trivialized because of the gear treadmill, but when Lich King first came out, those things were difficult and fun. Here is a link for some examples:

http://www.wowhead.com/achievements=1.168.14806

Thats a good example.  can you imagine how fun that would remain if there was no gear treadmill, i.e gear rewards looked more spectacular, but didnt give you extra stats that allowed you to steamroll the boss and 'heal through' most of the boss skills and events that made the fights engaging and exciting.

I know man, I know. I'm excited to see what happens to GW2 in the long term because of the implications of the plateau design.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11227

8/17/12 1:38:25 PM#250
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by heartless

Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community. 

Uhm.. you're wrong.

The reason instances became popularized was specifically to stop content from being exclusive to a small percentage of the population that is able compete for open world mobs.  

By putting the mobs into private instances, raiding was opened up to anyone and everyone that was able to organize a party.  

Prior to instances, "contested" raiding required being in an extremely dedicated guild that required - among other things - putting in massive playtimes in order to be online anytime a mob spawned.

well said :)

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

8/17/12 1:40:58 PM#251
Originally posted by arieste
Originally posted by heartless

Instanced raids, by their very nature, are about keeping content exclusive to the small percentage of the community. 

Uhm.. you're wrong.

 

The reason instances became popularized was specifically to stop content from being exclusive to a small percentage of the population that is able compete for open world mobs.  By putting the mobs into private instances, raiding was opened up to anyone and everyone that was able to organize a party.  

 

Prior to instances, "contested" raiding required being in an extremely dedicated guild that required - among other things - putting in massive playtimes in order to be online anytime a mob spawned.

 

With the introduction of raid instances, casual players - like me - that were only able to dedicate a couple of hours at a time to playing, were now able to experience the same content that was previously reserved only for those that had spent the majority of their time online.

 

Not particularly relevant to this discussion, but just wanted to correct you.

 

The time investment, organization and gear required to run these instanced raids make the exclusive to the people who have free time, are in a sufficient size guild and are able to field the required classes. Not to mention have the appropriate level gear. Then you have all of usual guild drama associated with raiding--asshat leaders, people arguing over gear etc.

Open world raids, as they are handled in GW2, do not exclude anyone, provided that the person is of an appropriate level.

  SkullyWoods

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 184

If victory is sweet, virtual victory is not Sweet'n Low

8/17/12 1:54:35 PM#252
Originally posted by Krimzin

Let me start by saying that I am a huge Guild Wars 2 fan and am in no way bashing it or the fan base.

Always love this one.

#TeamVainlash
Why did Marceline's dad eat her fries? I mean...cause she bought them and they were hers...

  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1315

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

8/17/12 1:58:29 PM#253
Originally posted by Krimzin

*snip*

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

 I'm not going to go into your reason why 90% of the players don't like raiding because it's simply boring, repetitive carrot-on-a-stick driven compulsive behavior. But if they want to add raids for the 10% of players that actually like that kind of thing, then sure, why not?

All I want is for people to not be forced (not even a little) to raid to be on equal footing with raiders. If that's the case then raid away.

I supect however that making raids for the hardcore raiding guilds will just get ArenaNet shot down because you just can't beat WoW at it's own game. The raiders will probably find it not quite as good as WoW and head back eventually. So why waste effort on those that are impossible to please by anything other than a gear grind.

The majority doesn't want it anyways. So Anet would probably be better off not trying to cater to harcore raiders.

I hope you enjoy GW2 for as long as possible and when you need your next raiding fix, you know who will be waiting on you, ready to take your sub for your next tier of gear which will be wothless in a few months anyway.

  yaoming36

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 190

8/17/12 2:02:44 PM#254
Originally posted by Krimzin

*snip*

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

I'm seriously getting tired of people like this... if you have done any of the dynamic events in 15+ zones , then you will see that many DEs end in high bosses which require a organized group. I've done an event where I had to go underwater mini dungeon which require insane coordination and teamwork. There are no "instanced" raids, they're just open to all , but some NEED a organized group otherwise you'll fail multiple times. 

 

 

  nolic1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 673

8/17/12 2:05:56 PM#255
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by Krimzin

*snip*

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

I'm seriously getting tired of people like this... if you have done any of the dynamic events in 15+ zones , then you will see that many DEs end in high bosses which require a organized group. I've done an event where I had to go underwater mini dungeon which require insane coordination and teamwork. There are no "instanced" raids, they're just open to all , but some NEED a organized group otherwise you'll fail multiple times. 

 

 

Is this the underwater one in char country with the traps and a jumping puzzle that you get to from the fire brand keep in the west of the map to port you in if so yes that one is a pain in the butt but it takes alot of group effort to finish.


To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

  User Deleted
8/17/12 2:08:10 PM#256
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by Krimzin

*snip*

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

I'm seriously getting tired of people like this... if you have done any of the dynamic events in 15+ zones , then you will see that many DEs end in high bosses which require a organized group. I've done an event where I had to go underwater mini dungeon which require insane coordination and teamwork. There are no "instanced" raids, they're just open to all , but some NEED a organized group otherwise you'll fail multiple times. 

As long as skinner box traditional raiding is touted as the only true part of the game in MMOs, we're never going to hear the end of it.

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5540

8/17/12 2:09:38 PM#257
Originally posted by lathaan
[mod edit]

Depends on your spec IRL.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  yaoming36

Novice Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 190

8/17/12 2:10:38 PM#258
Originally posted by nolic1
Originally posted by yaoming36
Originally posted by Krimzin

*snip*

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

I'm seriously getting tired of people like this... if you have done any of the dynamic events in 15+ zones , then you will see that many DEs end in high bosses which require a organized group. I've done an event where I had to go underwater mini dungeon which require insane coordination and teamwork. There are no "instanced" raids, they're just open to all , but some NEED a organized group otherwise you'll fail multiple times. 

 

 

Is this the underwater one in char country with the traps and a jumping puzzle that you get to from the fire brand keep in the west of the map to port you in if so yes that one is a pain in the butt but it takes alot of group effort to finish.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFYI8HxKWU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU

 

The first part of this quite easy and can be done with a pick-up-group... once you get underwater, all hell breaks loose. I spent about 2 hours in the underwater room with the 8 dragon heads trying to turn off the fire and then made it all the way to the end to realize no-one had the damn sword.

  Drachasor

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 2693

8/17/12 2:11:53 PM#259
Originally posted by JoeyMMO
Originally posted by Krimzin

*snip*

I honestly hope Anet changes its stance in the future and brings in some type of organized raiding. Exploreable 5 man dungeons are great and all, but it’s a far cry for a raid.
If they don’t, so be it. Guild Wars 2 will be fun for awhile atleast.

 I'm not going to go into your reason why 90% of the players don't like raiding because it's simply boring, repetitive carrot-on-a-stick driven compulsive behavior. But if they want to add raids for the 10% of players that actually like that kind of thing, then sure, why not?

One reason why not, beyond what you said, is that it takes a lot more than 10% of the dev resources to make such content.

  nolic1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/01/07
Posts: 673

8/17/12 2:13:04 PM#260
Originally posted by yaoming36

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGFYI8HxKWU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlyNtM29-CU

 

The first part of this quite easy and can be done with a pick-up-group... once you get underwater, all hell breaks loose. I spent about 2 hours in the underwater room with the 8 dragon heads trying to turn off the fire and then made it all the way to the end to realize no-one had the damn sword.

Yeah that ones a real group effort to get through and you have to work really well together to finish.


To me I enjoy gaming I dont play to be uber I play to have fun. If a game is not fun to me guess what I move on and play something else till I find one that is. When I find that great game and not sure if in my life time there will be one I hope it has everything I want in an mmo.

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