Paying $60 for the box and $180 a year for the privledge of using the software you bought is any better?

Ok...

And, btw, where is it written that subscription is inherently better?   Some subs are a total rip-off (SWTOR) others a decent value (WoW).  Some cash shops are horrible (Perfect World) others are ok (Turbine).

Originally posted by VirgoThree
It's not so bad really. There are plenty of single player games that have cash shop like DLC such as Dead Space as an example. You can pay cash for overpowered weapons and breeze through the game. Granted it's not multiplayer but I find that to be more strange since it is singleplayer.

OMG.   Dragon Age Origins had a cash shop in the game.   As a vendor.   I'm like 'cool, there's a vendor at my camp.'  Followed by "OMG, WTFBBQ!!!"   That was the last (except the SWTOR mistake) full-retail BioWare game ever.   I have plenty of good games, waiting a year to buy the game on a super deep discount (if at all) suits me fine.

Originally posted by bookworm438

Originally posted by trenshod

Originally posted by bookworm438

Originally posted by trenshod

I think it is great that GW2 has cash shops now what they expect you to buy from this cash shop I don't entirely agree with. 5 character slots to boot bullcrap oh you want more bag space pony up bitch bullcrap. Don't leach your customer base anet for christ sakes. If this is how you roll I would rather just pay a sub fee. Lets just nickle and dime our fanbase so they end up paying more than they would if they had a sub lol we win and our customers are none the wiser for its only $5 here $10 there (suckers).

For the record I enjoy playing GW2 and will most likely play the hell out of it but that doesn't change how I feel about adding additional charges to core game items.

Question: if I unlock additional bag space on one character is it just for that character or is it account wide? I'm guessing that its for that character, I don't recall how many bag unlocks there were but I'm thinking at least 6. Even if you didn't go with extra character slots and expanded your bags for your 5 slots worth of characters your looking at 30 or so expandable bag slots. I don't recall what the pricing was on those but its my guess its not going to be inexpensive.

 

1) Are you really going to focus on 5 characters all at once? Down the road it may be a problem (assuming they don't add character slots in expansions like GW1), but initially it won't be a problem. And over the course of the year or so it takes you to get to the point where you need more character slots, you could be spending gold on gems to save up for more character slots.

2)  Bag space. Currently I believe there are a total of 5 bag slots. Your initial bag is 20 slots. At level 80, you should be able to get 22(I think that's the number) space bag slots available. Not to mention you have 30 bank slots, plus a whole separate tab for materials and collectables in your bank, which you can send your mats to from anywhere in the world. You can also post directly to the TP from anywhere in the world as well. You have plenty of space. People are freaking out because they see the option to purchase bag space in the CS, and they don't have much room currently. Of course you don't have much room currently, you're level 5. I have yet to see a game that allows you to purchase 20 slot bags right at level 5. 

All I'm saying is there are other ways to make money then on core game features. Character and bag slots imo is just being greedy. Not saying that I won't have enough bag space or get my fill of characters by the time I would need them I just don't think that should be something I have to pay for when I have already bought the game. I'm fairly certain they will make plenty of money on vanity items alone.

Problem is that not even in P2P games you have unlimited characters. You generally have between 7-10 characters per server. And server architecture is different in GW2. Servers are basically merely for WvW, otherwise they pretty much don't exist. And while we say you should treat this as a single player game as well when considering purchases, you also have to remember that you are storing your character's data on THEIR servers. Meaning every item you collect, and everything about your character is stored in their database. While individually it may not make a difference, when you've got over a million players, it does add up. Which is why you pay about $10 for a new character after your initial 5. You are paying for the extra space being alloted to your account. Or when you buy gems with gold, other people are paying for for the addition to your account.

Finally, remember ArenaNet is a business. There is no such thing as greed, especially if players are willing to pay for it. And when you do the math, it's not that bad. If you purchase the game, that's about $60. Now lets say you want 3 more characters. That's $30. However, you don't need to purchase it all at once, so that purchase will be spread out over the coming months. Now let's say you save up enough gold and purchase enough gems for 1 character slot, that purchase goes down to $20. Now over the course of say 8 months, spending $20 is actually pretty good. When you purchase the game, you get 5 characters, about 5 bag spaces, and a whole world full of content. That's the deal of the purchase. Anything extra, and you're going to need to cough up some more money. 

It may sound limiting on paper, but in practice it won't be. Most people have no need for 5 character slots. I'll probably purchase 3 more character slots to level every profession to 80. 

Originally posted by Zylaxx

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

 

 

 

So what do people think, is it now acceptable to charge £50+ for a game and then adding a cash shop?

Ohh look its this thread again.

 

 

 

I was waiting for someone to post this. 

Hey lets make a new thread of things already covered in full detail in other forums but I'm far too lazy to read it all so instead I like to make a new 10+ page thread of whine in. or... maybe its because all the problems that he covered was already disputed and he thinks that now his ideas are fresh and noone disputed it 10 pages ago. hmm... I really wonder... >.> <.<

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

So what do people think, is it now acceptable to charge £50+ for a game and then adding a cash shop?

Personally, I'd much rather pay a sub and have a purely cosmetic CS or no CS at all - however, most people seem to be perfectly happy with GW2's cash shop (as can be seen by the responses in this thread), so I guess it is indeed more or less acceptable. :)

Originally posted by bookworm438

 

Um... nobody said WoW is crap. People are pointing out that WoW is a P2P game that has a cash shop as well. Also the mounts do provide an advantage comparable to any advantage GW2 CS provides. Mounts you buy in WoW are instantly unlocked for every character in the game, so you never have to worry about spending gold on mounts. You only need to worry about purchasing the training. 

My question for those complaining about character slots, how many characters do you really have? How many characters do you actually focus on. Other than a few select people, most people only focus on a couple characters. I'm not talking about creating 5 alts and having them all sit at level 12. I'm talking about legitimately creating alts that you will spend time on and level. 

Raises hand...   Yeah, that'd be me.   I have 8 characters in GW1 (I have all the campaigns plus EoN).   I have 9 characters in LOTRO.   I have 6characters in DDO.   And at least 25%, usually more, are at cap in any of those games.   In LOTRO, before I quit, the lowest level I had was 30 and that was a race-re-roll on my burg.  I have 3 at cap, 3 in their 70's as they were moving from the old 65 cap to the new cap and 3 moving up to start Moria (level 50).     

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Lucioon

 

 And all the informations regarding the Cash Shop has already been told. Its no Secret what is in GW2 Cash Shops. There is really nothing to wait and see, its all available for everyone to see right now atm.

theres a big unknown for how rare Mystic keys will drop in game

some people claim the keys are rare and thats what makes the store P2W

 

So far the treasure has been crap.   You're not going to get me to buy a Black Lion Chest.   Turning into some animal for 10 minutes...   Not paying for that.   Minor buffs that I can't really get a solid value out of?   Nope...

Originally posted by rygard49

Let me start by saying that I'm against cash shops in any game that you purchase outright to play, not just the GW2 shop, so please don't take the body of this post to mean that I'm attacking GW2.

I feel like many people only defend this particular cash shop because they love the game so much. To them, I say it's okay to love the game and dislike the idea of a cash shop. For those pro cash shop people, here are my responses to the major arguments for it:

 

• You don't have to use it.

Yes, I know I don't have to use it. That doesn't make it's existence any less intrusive on my gameplay experience. I don't like having to pay convenience fees in any form, and that's exactly what they're doing with reduced bag/bank space and limiting character slots. They have designed the game from the ground up with a cash shop in mind, and the only way to have a successful cash shop without being pay to win is to make the game just inconvenient enough to keep people playing, but to strongly encourage small sales to decrease the inconvenience.

 

 

• Other games are B2P with sub and cash shop.

So those other games are run more greedily, and that makes this particular cash shop somehow okay by comparison? Many of you HATE the Box Price/Sub/CS combo, and yet won't bat an eye to use it to defend the cash shop in this game. It's a bit hypocritical.

 

 

• It's a business, they have to make money.

I agree with this argument actually, but there's a difference between trying to make an honest buck for your labors, and trying to turn your customers into a cash faucet, which is what many MMOs are trying to do nowadays, and the cash shop is definitely a tool that facilitates this.

 

Many of us are under the mistaken assumption that if we contribute to the cash shop, then somehow that translates into more, better game content in the future. In truth, a large portion of those contributions are going to go toward more, better cash shop content.

 

 

 

TL;DR: For me, cash shop and B2P is not acceptable in any game, not just GW2.

For me, Cash shop is acceptable in any game. I don't give a crap that a P2P game, F2P game, or B2P game has a cash shop. As long as it's not interfering with my ability to play a game, does it really matter?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, sometimes I think some people need to stop worrying about what other people are buying and just mind their own business. If Sally wants to spend $20 bucks in a cash shop, what does it matter to everyone else? As long as you aren't forced to purchase anything in there in order to actually progress, your good. If you don't feel it's right to spend any more money on a game than what you already did, then don't. It's honestly that's simple. ArenaNet hasn't gimped your character. You have a lot of storage. Obviously you don't have a lot in the beginning because you're only level 5. You have yet to be able to get better bags. And things drop like candy in this game. So when you are playing the game, you perceive that your character is gimped in the storage area, when in reality, items just drop like crazy. 

The only legitimate claim people have against the cash shop, I think, is character slots. And even then, a very good argument can be made in favor of selling more character slots. 

Which goes back to an earlier post in this thread. There are two types of people here:

1) People who hate cash shops

2) People who don't mind cash shops

No matter what people do, they won't be able to convince each other. I am personally #2, I just don't care about cash shops. 

Originally posted by MosesZD

Originally posted by bookworm438

 

Um... nobody said WoW is crap. People are pointing out that WoW is a P2P game that has a cash shop as well. Also the mounts do provide an advantage comparable to any advantage GW2 CS provides. Mounts you buy in WoW are instantly unlocked for every character in the game, so you never have to worry about spending gold on mounts. You only need to worry about purchasing the training. 

My question for those complaining about character slots, how many characters do you really have? How many characters do you actually focus on. Other than a few select people, most people only focus on a couple characters. I'm not talking about creating 5 alts and having them all sit at level 12. I'm talking about legitimately creating alts that you will spend time on and level. 

 

 

Raises hand...   Yeah, that'd be me.   I have 8 characters in GW1 (I have all the campaigns plus EoN).   I have 9 characters in LOTRO.   I have 6characters in DDO.   And at least 25%, usually more, are at cap in any of those games.   In LOTRO, before I quit, the lowest level I had was 30 and that was a race-re-roll on my burg.  I have 3 at cap, 3 in their 70's as they were moving from the old 65 cap to the new cap and 3 moving up to start Moria (level 50).     

 

I only create alts as long as there is new content to experience. I'm not sure if GW2 has enough unique content for 5 characters to experience. I mean, I know that there are multiple leveling paths but I'm not sure if they merge later or not. So I'm guessing maybe 2 - 4 mostly unique leveling paths. The game gives you 5 character slots right off the bat, that to me is plenty.

With that said, I do plan to purchase 3 more slots because I'm not really sure which character to stick with and I want to try all of them without having to start over.

Originally posted by MorpheusMJW

Hello all,

Usually the business model of a MMO is either F2P with cash shop or subscription model with lower cost purchase. I haven't seen barely any mention on this on the forums, other than when the prices were first announced, so does that mean it is now acceptable to charge £50-120 for an MMO and then tap a cash shop on as well?

 

I could be more forgiving if the cash shop was just more bank slots like in GW1, but paying for character slots, when I have just purchased a £50 game is a bit greedy in my opinion. Add to that genuine advantages (regardless of how large or small and I know they can be very small advantages) people can get from purchasing consumable items, it seems ridiculous to me to even have these items, Arenanet already stand to make around £100million just for box sales alone (a conservative difference between the amount of prepurchases and beta accounts active)

 

I can already imagine people posting 'The cash shop is optional and the advantages aren't even that significant'. Regardless of how significant they are, people have the option to run 25% faster than me, even after me paying £50 for a game.

Its like paying £40 for FIFA and then they have a cash shop for all players in squad to run 25% faster, doesn't seem fair for me. I think the initial purchase should make it so everyone is on a level playing field. Don't get me wrong, I'm really looking forward to playing, but this is the only thing that disappoints me.

 

So what do people think, is it now acceptable to charge £50+ for a game and then adding a cash shop?

I understand your argument, but not your premise. In the end isnt it free choice to accept or deny a game we want to play?  

But back to your argument... I'd counter why should it not be accepted?  You never have to buy anything from the cash shop, so its existence shouldn't affect you or your gameplay.  Some games have a purchase + sub + cash shop.  That seems to be ok.   

I dont understand the financials of making a game, but I do know its not free.  So its impossible for me to believe that a game can survive if all pieces of content were free.  How would you recoup any of your cost?  Better yet how would you eat? Let them have their cash shop.  It cant take your money unless you give it to them.  Think wisely.

I am gamer. Play. Forever

Yes.

I may be a gamer, but I'm also a business man.  Only people who have started and pushed out a product or idea can understand when I say there's nothing wrong with capitalizing on your work.  

ArenaNet is not an indy or charity group.  They answer to corporate members and shareholders.  And a responsibility to their employees.

And in the beginning and end, the choice is ultimately the users.  YOU decide to buy the game.  YOU decide whether to use the gem shop with real currency or trade in gold.  This is their product.  While you can have an opinion on their decision for something here or there, in the end, it's their baby to raise.

Originally posted by heartless

What I don't understand is why isn't the OP creating this same topic in other MMO forums? I mean if he has an issue with a B2P MMO having an optional cash shop, he should be up in arms over MMOs that have a box price, a cash shop and a subscription fee. Which is pretty much every single AAA MMO out there.

Word, people these days, as the game comes closer to launch, seems like the sleepers are coming out more and more.  Its suprising because ever since the WoW patch annoucment, seems like a huge influx of people raising their pitchforks and torches and try to find anything to complain about.  Such is the vicious circle of a new upcoming MMO.

I just don´t accept Pay to Play games with cash shop.

in FTP or BTP i have different consideration.

Originally posted by rykim86

Yes.

I may be a gamer, but I'm also a business man.  Only people who have started and pushed out a product or idea can understand when I say there's nothing wrong with capitalizing on your work.  

ArenaNet is not an indy or charity group.  They answer to corporate members and shareholders.  And a responsibility to their employees.

And in the beginning and end, the choice is ultimately the users.  YOU decide to buy the game.  YOU decide whether to use the gem shop with real currency or trade in gold.  This is their product.  While you can have an opinion on their decision for something here or there, in the end, it's their baby to raise.

Thank you!! I think you've said it infinitely better than I have been saying.

Originally posted by bookworm438

Originally posted by rykim86

Yes.

I may be a gamer, but I'm also a business man.  Only people who have started and pushed out a product or idea can understand when I say there's nothing wrong with capitalizing on your work.  

ArenaNet is not an indy or charity group.  They answer to corporate members and shareholders.  And a responsibility to their employees.

And in the beginning and end, the choice is ultimately the users.  YOU decide to buy the game.  YOU decide whether to use the gem shop with real currency or trade in gold.  This is their product.  While you can have an opinion on their decision for something here or there, in the end, it's their baby to raise.

Thank you!! I think you've said it infinitely better than I have been saying.

I try not to troll.  But this is what happen on a typical F2P cashshop discussion on a typical F2P game:

"LOL, F2P, dont' play, the developer will try to milk you on your last penny with the cash shop".  Cash shop are evil!

Now come to GW2 forum it became:

"Oh, you think the developer dont' need money?  How would a company survive if they don't capitalize.  There's nothing wrong with cash shop!

Originally posted by laokoko

I try not to troll.  But this is what happen on a typical F2P cashshop discussion on a typical F2P game:

"LOL, F2P, dont' play, the developer will try to milk you on your last penny with the cash shop".  Cash shop are evil!

Now come to GW2 forum it became:

"Oh, you think the developer dont' need money?  How would a company survive if they don't capitalize.  There's nothing wrong with cash shop!

Waiting for you to show up!

It's amazing you still don't see the difference between in development of GW2 and a typical F2P.  

Hmmm, a F2P MMO that only took maybe tens of thousand or a hundred thousand to develop versus a multi million dollar project that's be released internationally.  Has a much larger work force, payroll.  Actual bosses and share holders to answer to.

You know what, I'm not doing this again.  I've explained the basics of business concepts to you multiple times and yet you still don't understand it.

Originally posted by rykim86

Originally posted by laokoko

I try not to troll.  But this is what happen on a typical F2P cashshop discussion on a typical F2P game:

"LOL, F2P, dont' play, the developer will try to milk you on your last penny with the cash shop".  Cash shop are evil!

Now come to GW2 forum it became:

"Oh, you think the developer dont' need money?  How would a company survive if they don't capitalize.  There's nothing wrong with cash shop!

Waiting for you to show up!

It's amazing you still don't see the difference between in development of GW2 and a typical F2P.  

Hmmm, a F2P MMO that only took maybe tens of thousand or a hundred thousand to develop versus a multi million dollar project that's be released internationally.  Has a much larger work force, payroll.  Actual bosses and share holders to answer to.

You know what, I'm not doing this again.  I've explained the basics of business concepts to you multiple times and yet you still don't understand it.

So what's the budget of GW2.  Ok you dont' know!

You keep saying about GW2 being AAA or whatever.  and you don't even know how much the development cost is.

So how much is the development cost of GW2?  20m?30m?50m?80m?100m?150m?  Can you even give me any resonable estimate of it?  NO!!!! No one knows