OP -

I tend to agree for the most part with your line of thinking.

I believe the majority of complaints and complainers behind them are simple rationalizations as to why TOR didn't succeed in the way EA hoped.   If TOR had in fact succeeded I think those same complainers would be singing a different tune along the lines of "See, I told you TOR would be a success! It has all the ingredients of a successful WoW clone"

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a flame war here.  But my reasoning is thus:

Most (if not all) of the vocal naysayers of the game only assumed that opinion AFTER

1) they capped their first character

2) Ensuing complaints followed due to #1 since most of those reaching point 1 found no entertainment in creating alts

3) The pendulum of popular thought was swinging away from favorable

4) Mob-like mentality taking over critical thought

These reasons have convinced me that the game is not the critical failure many would have you believe.  The game did garner exceptional reviews across the board from most major gaming critics.  Most, while still playing the game and not having capped their first character were very vocal in supporting the game and advertising its many merits.

I do think EA did choose the wrong pay model, but I don't think that had really anything to do with BioWare.

As I see it, the game has all the most fundamental themepark elements for it to work as well as WoW does in the market.  But, as different times have shown us, the P2P model has been on its way out for some time and unless you already have your social network established (such as WoW), most will simply leave once the content dries up.

I believe the F2P model will not only bring in numerous new players, but we may actually see this as one of the biggest turn-around stories of the MMO genre.  Call me a fanboy all you want, I do think the F2P change will be a smashing success.

Edit: Spotlight Poster?!?! WOW!....I'm speechless.....actually, I have written a little something....I'd like to take this time to thank my parents whom always instilled within my a sense of work, my wife who is forever by my side, my agent, and finally, my fans and readers...I LOVE YOU ALL! God Bless!

Originally posted by Presbytier

Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon.

That's absolutely correct.  Unfortunately you only get one chance to make a first impression.  They blew it.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

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Originally posted by Phry

truth isnt something that can be manipulated

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Yet, couple commas and one punctuation later you claim how it is happening all the time...

And no, that does not make it a lie.

the whole point is that if you manipulate the truth, its not longer the truth. and yes, that does make it a lie. and yes it does happen all the time. sorry to break it to you, but those adverts you see on tv, their mostly BS.. 

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Originally posted by Phry

the whole point is that if you manipulate the truth, its not longer the truth.

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So saying the glass is half-empty is a lie because in fact the glass is half-full.

No, you are not right. Just because I presented data or facts in different light does not make it a lie.

Originally posted by Blackbrrd
Actually, it does look like the player base for SWTOR has stabilized, just look at xfire, it's at the same number of players now as it was two months ago. They said they needed 500k+ subscribers, and that is what they have.

Players do not equal subscribers, since F2P to level 15 was made available, which may be why Xfire is more active / stable

Originally posted by Presbytier

*snip*

 Firstly I firmly believe SW:ToR would have been better served if it had taken a B2P model from the get go(notice i did not say F2P since i I think this game did sell well and would have continued to sell well without a sub). Now the game itself had an exceptionally solid launch one that I think many companies should emulate(from the looks of things GW2 is taking the same model with lots of Beta weekends and stress tests before launch). For the most part it also did not have an incredible amount of game breaking bugs( I am not sying it had no bugs, because it did, but iInstead pointing out that in comparison to most MMO launches it was considerably better).

It still has a lot of bugs, but not really game-breaking bugs. And yes it should have been B2P from the start since it's main selling point is that of a story-driven SPG. 

Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon. Many quality of life features the game needed as well as PvP and endgame content was just not there at launch, and i believe that it seriously hindered the game out of the gate. Many of those things have been addresed since launch(well except PvP which is still a mess), and the games overall performance has increased considrably since then as well. So, just less than one year later SW:TOR is going F2P, and it is a good thing. More people will be able to access the game with less restrictions; the only question is to whether they can keep their six week promise of new content and as to whether they can monetize it inj a way that does not piss off their fans but still makes them money.

I think they should wave the sub and sell the game at a discount. I don't believe going F2P will solve their problems.

SWTOR is down for the count, it would require far too much time/money to change the game into something people would play for years.

Most of SWTOR's problems were discussed years/months before it released. There were those of us that knew full vo/story would cause patches to come out slower or with less content. We were told though "it's Bioware! They know what they are doing!". We also stated how the game would fall flat once the story ended, but again "It's Bioware!". The major problems with the game were all discussed and dissmissed vehemitly, by Bioware fans, years/months prior to launch. Bioware didn't listen then and now the game is built upon flawed design decisions, it isn't going to change.

It took them 5 years to produce the game in it's current form, in order to turn that game around they would need another few years of pure development. We are talking engine overhaul, PvP overhaul, faction overhaul, class system overhaul, world overhaul, etc. You would be basically making a new game with the same assets. It simply isn't feasible and EA certainly isn't going to fund it. EA is going to do the bare minimum to make some more money off the game and that's it. They are going to use as little money as possible to get the most out of SWTOR. Just look at WAR, they reused the same assets for WOH.

Originally posted by Distaste

It took them 5 years to produce the game in it's current form, in order to turn that game around they would need another few years of pure development. We are talking engine overhaul, PvP overhaul, faction overhaul, class system overhaul, world overhaul, etc. You would be basically making a new game with the same assets. It simply isn't feasible and EA certainly isn't going to fund it. EA is going to do the bare minimum to make some more money off the game and that's it. They are going to use as little money as possible to get the most out of SWTOR. Just look at WAR, they reused the same assets for WOH.

This is just ridiculous; the game has issues, but for the most it is solid. Only the most ardently biased individuals would fualt the entire games system. Does the game have some issues; yes, but not do to poor game design, but instead just a lack of endgame content.

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Originally posted by Presbytier

This is just ridiculous;

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lol yeah, this was truly hilarious:

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Originally posted by Distaste

Most of SWTOR's problems were discussed years/months before it released.

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Originally posted by Distaste

There were those of us that knew full vo/story would cause patches to come out slower or with less content.

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Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Originally posted by Presbytier

Now the real issue was it just launched one year to soon.

 

That's absolutely correct.  Unfortunately you only get one chance to make a first impression.  They blew it.

Another year would have added a full space sim and removed the linear quest map design?

Originally posted by Presbytier

Originally posted by Distaste

It took them 5 years to produce the game in it's current form, in order to turn that game around they would need another few years of pure development. We are talking engine overhaul, PvP overhaul, faction overhaul, class system overhaul, world overhaul, etc. You would be basically making a new game with the same assets. It simply isn't feasible and EA certainly isn't going to fund it. EA is going to do the bare minimum to make some more money off the game and that's it. They are going to use as little money as possible to get the most out of SWTOR. Just look at WAR, they reused the same assets for WOH.

This is just ridiculous; the game has issues, but for the most it is solid. Only the most ardently biased individuals would fualt the entire games system. Does the game have some issues; yes, but not do to poor game design, but instead just a lack of endgame content.

It does seem that there isnt enough end game content at the moment, though over time they can improve on that. one of the big problems imo, is that there is still a problem with the phasing, the limits on player numbers seem to be excessive, so much so that areas appear to be emptier than they really are, or at least i hope thats the case. That and the only real hope of PVP beyond the ridiculous 'arenas' they currently have, of which huttball is the most absurd, was Ilum, and with the game not really able to handle any kind of real numbers without lagging out and who knows what else, i can't help but feel that the problem is the game engine itself, and maybe it isnt really suitable for MMO's. I don't really expect Eve figures, or Planetsides level of combat, but, something a bit more than is currently available would certainly make the PVP a lot more desirable in game. And anyone who is really into the PVP is going to take one look at whats available in SW;TOR and what their going to be offering in GW2 and make a really easy decision.. and it would surprise me if it was SW;TOR

I think SW;TOR is probably always going to be one of those Coop games with a good SPRPG experience, if Bioware expand on that, then i think they may just be in it for the long haul.. but, its probably always going to be a 'niche' game.

Originally posted by Presbytier

Originally posted by Probert
How can you say there is no difference between Sandbox and Theme Parks? There are HUGE differences, gaming companies want full control over what is going on in their game and how people play their game...why you won't see many if any at all sandbox games.

My point is entirely subjective, but I found that when people actually try o list the differences it collapses under the fact that no one agrees to what a Sandbox MMO should be to begin with.

Actually, people really only disagree on what features constitute a sandbox.  What we can generally agree on about them though is that there is more of a free-form horizontal gameplay experience, rather than the verticle climb to end game.  We can also say that they generally give a player more freedom to create their own story and path through the game world rather than being led from one contrived questing area to the next.  It's about creating your own story instead of living a story that was handed to you by the devs.

From there you can dicuss various features and mechanics, but the underlying architectural difference between the two types of games is huge, IMO.

Hybrids blur that line by having some of both, of course.  We are starting to see some games now that are just starting to walk in the hybrid direction.

Originally posted by Distaste

SWTOR is down for the count, it would require far too much time/money to change the game into something people would play for years.

 

Most of SWTOR's problems were discussed years/months before it released. There were those of us that knew full vo/story would cause patches to come out slower or with less content. We were told though "it's Bioware! They know what they are doing!". We also stated how the game would fall flat once the story ended, but again "It's Bioware!". The major problems with the game were all discussed and dissmissed vehemitly, by Bioware fans, years/months prior to launch. Bioware didn't listen then and now the game is built upon flawed design decisions, it isn't going to change.

 

It took them 5 years to produce the game in it's current form, in order to turn that game around they would need another few years of pure development. We are talking engine overhaul, PvP overhaul, faction overhaul, class system overhaul, world overhaul, etc. You would be basically making a new game with the same assets. It simply isn't feasible and EA certainly isn't going to fund it. EA is going to do the bare minimum to make some more money off the game and that's it. They are going to use as little money as possible to get the most out of SWTOR. Just look at WAR, they reused the same assets for WOH.

I agree.  The writing was on the wall for this game long before launch, and many of us figured it out based on what Bioware wasn't saying rather than what they were saying.  I was shocked at how dead and plastic the world looked and felt though.  It was clear from very early screenshots that the areas may be linear and walled-off, but I had no idea it would have almost zero atmosphere.

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I tend to agree for the most part with your line of thinking.

I believe the majority of complaints and complainers behind them are simple rationalizations as to why TOR didn't succeed in the way EA hoped.   If TOR had in fact succeeded I think those same complainers would be singing a different tune along the lines of "See, I told you TOR would be a success! It has all the ingredients of a successful WoW clone"

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a flame war here.  But my reasoning is thus:

Most (if not all) of the vocal naysayers of the game only assumed that opinion AFTER

1) they capped their first character

2) Ensuing complaints followed due to #1 since most of those reaching point 1 found no entertainment in creating alts

3) The pendulum of popular thought was swinging away from favorable

4) Mob-like mentality taking over critical thought

These reasons have convinced me that the game is not the critical failure many would have you believe.  The game did garner exceptional reviews across the board from most major gaming critics.  Most, while still playing the game and not having capped their first character were very vocal in supporting the game and advertising its many merits.

I do think EA did choose the wrong pay model, but I don't think that had really anything to do with BioWare.

As I see it, the game has all the most fundamental themepark elements for it to work as well as WoW does in the market.  But, as different times have shown us, the P2P model has been on its way out for some time and unless you already have your social network established (such as WoW), most will simply leave once the content dries up.

I believe the F2P model will not only bring in numerous new players, but we may actually see this as one of the biggest turn-around stories of the MMO genre.  Call me a fanboy all you want, I do think the F2P change will be a smashing success.

Edit: Spotlight Poster?!?! WOW!....I'm speechless.....actually, I have written a little something....I'd like to take this time to thank my parents whom always instilled within my a sense of work, my wife who is forever by my side, my agent, and finally, my fans and readers...I LOVE YOU ALL! God Bless!

 

This is exactly what I was trying to say, and you said it wonderfully. I remember how everyone was dexclaiming the virtues of SW:TOR; then the first month ended and people started hitting cap. That was when the good will started to erode.

Originally posted by Presbytier

Originally posted by grimal

OP -

I tend to agree for the most part with your line of thinking.

I believe the majority of complaints and complainers behind them are simple rationalizations as to why TOR didn't succeed in the way EA hoped.   If TOR had in fact succeeded I think those same complainers would be singing a different tune along the lines of "See, I told you TOR would be a success! It has all the ingredients of a successful WoW clone"

Now, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to start a flame war here.  But my reasoning is thus:

Most (if not all) of the vocal naysayers of the game only assumed that opinion AFTER

1) they capped their first character

2) Ensuing complaints followed due to #1 since most of those reaching point 1 found no entertainment in creating alts

3) The pendulum of popular thought was swinging away from favorable

4) Mob-like mentality taking over critical thought

These reasons have convinced me that the game is not the critical failure many would have you believe.  The game did garner exceptional reviews across the board from most major gaming critics.  Most, while still playing the game and not having capped their first character were very vocal in supporting the game and advertising its many merits.

I do think EA did choose the wrong pay model, but I don't think that had really anything to do with BioWare.

As I see it, the game has all the most fundamental themepark elements for it to work as well as WoW does in the market.  But, as different times have shown us, the P2P model has been on its way out for some time and unless you already have your social network established (such as WoW), most will simply leave once the content dries up.

I believe the F2P model will not only bring in numerous new players, but we may actually see this as one of the biggest turn-around stories of the MMO genre.  Call me a fanboy all you want, I do think the F2P change will be a smashing success.

Edit: Spotlight Poster?!?! WOW!....I'm speechless.....actually, I have written a little something....I'd like to take this time to thank my parents whom always instilled within my a sense of work, my wife who is forever by my side, my agent, and finally, my fans and readers...I LOVE YOU ALL! God Bless!

 

This is exactly what I was trying to say, and you said it wonderfully. I remember how everyone was dexclaiming the virtues of SW:TOR; then the first month ended and people started hitting cap. That was when the good will started to erode.

It was after the first week of gameplay for me.  Actually, I came back here and wrote some very nice early impressions about the game during that first week, then as I got a little further in, the mudane and solo-focused feeling of it all started to really hit me, as did the dull, empty and lifeless game world.  I didn't make it anywhere near cap and cancelled just before the sub renewed.

I agree with you though.  There were TONS of people on this site who were actually *really* hating on me and some others who were the first ones to point out some major flaws in this game.  It was Fanboy hell in here for at least a whole month.  Some of those people were absolute GW2 haters at the time too, and now they are swinging off GW2 nuts with just as much fervor as they did SWTOR.  It makes me laugh, really.

Originally posted by Yamota
SW:TOR was down for the count as a subscription based game but, like Star Trek Online, it can exist and maybe even thrive as a F2P because you will always have fanatic Star Wars or Star Trek fans who will pay alot of money on it just because of the IP.

Or people like me who don't really like Star Wars but will hop in now and then to play the game because they just enjoy the story and characters. :)

Originally posted by Presbytier

Originally posted by ZigZags

I think an MMO needs both Sandbox AND Theme park features to succeed otherwise they become too niche to really capture a massive audience. I think WoW does this pretty well...some will say World PVP in WoW is dead, its not and they are making it even more populated after MoP by cross server leveling zones.

 

SWTOR was too much of a theme park in a galaxy that demands freedom of exploration and sandbox like features. Also it helps if your developement team is not full of arrogant people who thnk they know best and dont care what their fans think. SWTOR deserves every bit of crap that is being thrown in its direction. Just look at space combat.....to me they should have left it out of the game entirely because putting it in the game just proves how much they dont care about the game or you as a subscriber.

 

SWTOR IS down for the count. Your definintion of "down for the count" varies from mine but to me, when your game was designed to compete with the best, can't hang on to even 10% of the players the best has, then goes f2p in the first year.....it couldn't really get ANY worse than that.

Here is the problem; I do not think the Devs don't care. I think they care allot. I do beleive the game can feel closed off, but I do not think that is a real problem. Also they have never given any indication they don"t care what the fans think; space combat is the way it is primarily do to limitation of the engine.

The #1 reason SWTOR failed was because its arrogant, incompetent and dishonest devs did not listen to the playerbase.

They made horrible PVE, PVP and overall metagame and class balance changes in 1.2 that destroyed the game, because they arrogantly and foolishly went with their own ideas which were completely and utterly wrong, despite being told many, many times on PTS forum that what they were doing was going to destroy the game.

On top they lied and manipulated numbers, putting marketing ahead of substance. Their forum mods deleted all criticism of the game and banned all naysayers in an effort to paint a rosy picture.

They all deserved to lose their jobs. One can only hope they never again get a job in the gaming industry, and end up doing menial jobs involving either a mop or a brush.

The failure of SWTOR is 100% on the lead developers. Let's hope we never again see the names Erickson, Hickman, Zoeller, Amantelago, and a few more in the credits for a video game, never again.