Most of my experiences with Computer RPGs are from the overhead isometric perspective.  My first MMO had this as well.

The next MMO I played was EQ.  I felt something was lost in the transition.  Sure, the game looked good, it was first/third person, but the RPG element was lost on me.  At the time, I attributed as being that the isometric view lends itself better to the RPG setting.

Part of me still believes this as I have not been able to find an MMO matched in immersion as UO.

Does anyone else feel this?   Was moving the camera enough to break the immersion?  Should we go back?  Has the genre become too close to the FPS one?

Originally posted by grimal

Does anyone else feel this?   Was moving the camera enough to break the immersion?  Should we go back?  Has the genre become too close to the FPS one?

Isometric--mostly gone the way of the dodo, with a very few exceptions.

Worst "adaptation" problem, for me, is Inverted Mouse, and different companies reversing (from each other).  Sometimes that little checkbox, always hidden away in options somewhere, can be a bloody bugger to hunt down...but it'll drive you insane, until you find it.

Worst not too bad, right?  Now we start setting up the keyboard..

For us stupid people... what is isometric view?

Originally posted by Dewm

 

For us stupid people... what is isometric view?

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Dewm

 

For us stupid people... what is isometric view?

Gotcha.

I don't think it's about the 2.5D versus 3D that kills immersion. (even MUDs could be quite immersive). It's just that the genre has moved away from building worlds, and making players feel like they're part of it.

Nowadays, everyone's a hero. You know that NPC you just helped take revenge for his wife's death by killing bandits? Well, that NPC must be some serious playboy because the players before and after you have all had to take revenge for his wife's death.  Or that evil boss destroying every village, you kill it and everyone hails you as a hero, only to do the same to other players again. It's quite hard to feel immersed in that kind of game.

In games like UO, there was none of that "everyone's a winner" bs. You gained reknown amongst the players through your actions, you'd get thrills when PKing or getting PKed, you had an impact on the world around you. There's nothing more immersive than being part of something that only you or a select few can do because it gives a value to your actions. There's none of that in today's MMOs and it's not because the games are isometric or 3D, it's because developers have forgotten how to build worlds.

Originally posted by Dewm

 

For us stupid people... what is isometric view?

Top-down, at an angle. Like Baldur's Gate, Fallout 1&2 (the ONLY two AFAIC), Ultima Online, etc.

I honestly would love to see a new isometric perspective MMO. Lineage Eternal looks very promising in that regard. I was following LinkRealms for a time, but the absolutely glacial speed of development finally made me give up on it.

Other than those two, not much going on, more's the pity I suppose.

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I honestly would love to see a new isometric perspective MMO.

The "omgoutdated graphics" folks would kill it before it hatched.

I always read those guys as "I just spent $500 for a new GPU and I will justify it with all the bells and whistles!"  But that's ok :)

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I honestly would love to see a new isometric perspective MMO.

The "omgoutdated graphics" folks would kill it before it hatched.

I always read those guys as "I just spent $500 for a new GPU and I will justify it with all the bells and whistles!"  But that's ok :)

I wouldn't mind an isometric MMO either, if it was the kind of game I wanted to play I could truly care less, although I have my preferences.

(edit: I know this puts me in the minority however)

Also, Diablo 3 sold how many millions?

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

I don't think it's about the 2.5D versus 3D that kills immersion. (even MUDs could be quite immersive). It's just that the genre has moved away from building worlds, and making players feel like they're part of it.

 

Nowadays, everyone's a hero. You know that NPC you just helped take revenge for his wife's death by killing bandits? Well, that NPC must be some serious playboy because the players before and after you have all had to take revenge for his wife's death.  Or that evil boss destroying every village, you kill it and everyone hails you as a hero, only to do the same to other players again. It's quite hard to feel immersed in that kind of game.

 

In games like UO, there was none of that "everyone's a winner" bs. You gained reknowned amongst the players through your actions, you'd get thrills when PKing or getting PKed, you had an impact on the world around you. There's nothing more immersive than being part of something that only you or a select few can do because it gives a value to your actions. There's none of that in today's MMOs and it's not because the games are isometric or 3D, it's because they've forgotten how to build worlds.

This is dead on imo.  Virtual worlds have gone away but that doesn't mean it's the only way you can build an mmorpg.  It just seems to be the more the VW is removed the more of a "everyone's a winner" appears.

First-person view is what most of us experience in real life. As I'm part of that group, I find first-person view to be much more immersive.  As soon as you take the step back to third-person, you break that and there's really not much difference between that any any other non-FP view (although the more you pull away, the less immersive it tends to be.)

While I criticize a lot of their gameplay elements for being really shallow, the Elder Scrolls games have been the most immersive RPGs I've experienced.

Originally posted by Axehilt

First-person view is what most of us experience in real life. As I'm part of that group, I find first-person view to be much more immersive.  As soon as you take the step back to third-person, you break that and there's really not much difference between that any any other non-FP view (although the more you pull away, the less immersive it tends to be.)

While I criticize a lot of their gameplay elements for being really shallow, the Elder Scrolls games have been the most immersive RPGs I've experienced.

But an isometric view offers better tactical considerations for combat. It is easier to judge AOE radius, use terrain to hide, and so on.

I like my RPG combat isometrics, better than 1st person (except Borderland). Moreover, 3rd person is also better in a RPG for me .. because i want to SEE all my gear on my toon.

I am playing games .... it does NOT have to mimic real life.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

But an isometric view offers better tactical considerations for combat. It is easier to judge AOE radius, use terrain to hide, and so on.

You can do that in most first-person-view MMO (including in the example of the OP, Everquest) by simply zooming out, it will pan the camera overhead. It's the same angle as an isometric view but in 3D.

This is the same tactical advantage of isometric view, and on top of that you can pan the camera around setting it higher or lower or spinning it around to your liking.

I would argue this system has more advantages over isometric, since first-person-view has advantages of mob tabbing and controlling adds.

Most people will switch view depending on need.

(this is EQ)

I like my first-person-view it is much more immersive.

To me, it doesn't matter if the view is Third Person or First Person, so long as I can move the camera. Diablo's static camera position really bugs me. I can play it, but I don't like it. The mobile camera mod for Torchlight was a big improvement over the static camera position.

Originally posted by grimal

Does anyone else feel this?   Was moving the camera enough to break the immersion?  Should we go back?  Has the genre become too close to the FPS one?

I found that once I got used to a 3-dimensional world, it was very hard to go back to an essetentially 2-dimensional one.

First person games give me vertigo ... something about not being able to see my feet.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Rednecksith

I honestly would love to see a new isometric perspective MMO.

The "omgoutdated graphics" folks would kill it before it hatched.

I always read those guys as "I just spent $500 for a new GPU and I will justify it with all the bells and whistles!"  But that's ok :)

I don't think outdated graphics are a requirement for an iso game. D3 is still kinda lacking on graphics but it is a recent isometric game with fair graphics.

I don't know if it would fly for anyone else but apparently Blizzard can still get away with it unless you think 10M copies sold is a low number.

I can't stand Isometric games.  There is literally no immersion when I've view from the top down.  EQ was my first MMO and I can't imagine putting up with UO's iso view.  How do you immerse yourself in the world without 3D and the occasional first person view?

When I see ISO view in a game I immediately skip it.  It may sound shallow but I need a 3d game world.  I'm not much of a graphics snob (I still log into EQ from time to time) but you have to be able to give me 3d and first person view.