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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Reason PvP sucks in most games

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113 posts found
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/08/12 12:52:49 PM#101
Originally posted by mmoDAD

PvP SUCKS because it's boring. PVP SUCKS because of WoW's precedent Battleground system and it's viral infection to other MMOs. 

Redundant Warzones? I thought this was a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game. There is nothing MASSIVE about small Counter-Strike-sized games.

PvP Gear = Stupidest idea I've ever heard. Battlegrounds are so boring that they need to provide this kind of incentive for people to play them. It's a lazy way to avoid having to actually knuckle down and do some real coding for meaning world pvp with proper sanctions to protect lowbies from max levelers.

PvP Sucks because it's almost always virtual socialism. Everything must be equal! Blah Blah. If I spend an entire month raiding for good gear and increasing my player skill, I should be able to bash the hell out of some weekend warrior. 

Eh?  WOW's BG/Arena system takes a step closer to pure PVP (the overwhelming choice of PVPers: PVP purely about skill and teamwork; no zerging; no progression advantage.)

Because it was closer to a pure PVP experience, it's been rather popular (but still nowhere near as popular as truly pure PVP.)

Nothing says instanced PVP can't be massive though.  (See Planetside 1, Planetside 2, and GW2.)  Although in all these examples the thing that separates them from bad world PVP is a population limit, so that more (ideally nearly all) battles are between even teams.  This makes player skill and teamwork matter more.

  madazz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/03
Posts: 1300

8/08/12 2:56:04 PM#102
Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

I only agree with 2, 3 and 4.

 

Number 1 does not apply to the majority of games, so your broad statement is not logical. PvP in most games are separate and not forced upon anyone. They are done in arenas or battlegrounds. Darkfall does have it, but its a PvP game... Shadowbane isn't around and Vanguard has no PvP (or does it? I could be mistaken). Why do you feel the minority of games with open PvP should be changed? You have so many others that aren't like that available! A vast amount actually. Most people like a nice safe game now a days (probably because of work/family), where only the mobs are their challenge.

 

Number 5... hit an miss in my opinion. I enjoy fast paced. But if slow as done right I'd probably enjoy that too.

 

Now as per your opinion on PvP not being forced upon people... boy are you in luck!!! Most games don't force PvP upon you. The problem we have is a loud group of people (most noticeably on MMORPG) feel that every single game should cater to one group of people and there is not a single reason to make a game for anyone else. 

 

PvP now a days is tacked on and half assed. I could not agree with you more about PvP specific gear. Its a lame attempt at getting people to repeat the same content over and over and over and over again. Which ties directly into what a ton of MMORPG users classify as end game. Hey, you guys got what you wanted! (not directed at the op at all).

  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1833

8/09/12 3:45:13 PM#103
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by nate1980
Originally posted by Lucioon

When you have specific roles for each class, then PVP won't work in that game.

Because how can you balance an Healer vs DPS, or an Tank vs Healer, in a game with Roles, those Roles works together against an NPC. But when you turn those roles against eachother, then those roles becomes an Hinderance.

Thats why Trinity will never work in an PVP setting, it will be too hard trying to balance the Trinity against each other when you are trying to separate them from eachother for PVE.

 

The roles don't change in PvP. A healer still heals, a tank still tanks, and dps still burns down the enemy players. The only difference between PvP and PvE is that you're not sure what the PvPers will do.

 

his point was that this is PVE centric class design and it is one of the major problems behind pvp balance in many games.  this is the reason the unkillable healers, worthless or overpowered tanks, and overly bursty dps, and simplistic paper/rock/scissors style balance are so ubiquitous in games.  these same pvp balance issues appear in so many games because they all have the same pve mechanic driving their character creation.

@ the guys talking about MOBAs.. this is all in reference to MMORPGS.. not mobas designed to be mobas.  that is a different genre of games with completely different class design goals.

 

I think having roles makes PvP interesting. DAoC balanced this as has other games. You're problem has something to do probably with how WoW and later games have made tanks and healers more of hybrids than pure specs. Both can deal dmg, and both can heal (Paladin).

What I wonder is what are you suggesting in place of the trinity that isn't going to make all classes homeginized or unbalanced?

  Palladin

Novice Member

Joined: 11/25/10
Posts: 434

 
OP  8/16/12 11:27:27 AM#104

In my opinion no game will have decent pvp unless it is based on character skills/player skill and gear should be trivial more for looks than anything else. Noone wants to run a dungeon 500 times for the "HELM OF GODLY MIGHT" just to have a group of douchbags gank it from him as he leaves the dungeon.

A characters power should be inheirent in the character not in his gear.

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  nate1980

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/03/09
Posts: 1833

8/16/12 3:35:21 PM#105
Originally posted by Palladin

In my opinion no game will have decent pvp unless it is based on character skills/player skill and gear should be trivial more for looks than anything else. Noone wants to run a dungeon 500 times for the "HELM OF GODLY MIGHT" just to have a group of douchbags gank it from him as he leaves the dungeon.

A characters power should be inheirent in the character not in his gear.

Traditional RPG's are not about twitch player skill. It's more about how clever and intelligent a player is by building a good  character. This suggests that a player has options when developing a character. It's your character doing battle with other characters, not you. So it's your characters skill and quality of gear he wears. Developing your character and getting loot/gear is what RPG's are all about. It's what sets RPG's apart from action adventure games like God of WAR.

If you want twitch skill, you'd be better server playing MMOFPS's, not MMORPG's.

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

8/16/12 5:52:55 PM#106
    The problem with PVP is that if you asked 10 players what they want in a PVP game you'd get 10 different replies..... Also I have never played  a game where world PVP was anywhere near fair or competitive....It usually only appeals to the epeen losers who's only satisfaction in life is to win in online gaming.....
  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5163

8/17/12 3:24:34 AM#107

PVP is no longer a design prioity in MMO’s. So we are not going to see any big changes into the way it is done. I would suggest Planetside 2; our last, best hope.

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3201

"A very special kind of stupidity"

8/17/12 5:41:04 AM#108
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by tixylix

I only like open world PVP, don't bother with any thing else because why play an MMO if you want arena or BGs? Might as well play CS or something....

Sadly open world PVP doesn't exist any more outside Dayz really and that isn't even an MMO, though it's more like one than most MMOs these days.

You forgot Eve Online, open world PvP is in that too.

 

It's more that tixylix would rather cover his fingers in steak sauce and stick them through the bars of the wolverine cage in the zoo than use those fingers to type anything positive about CCP or EVE.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3201

"A very special kind of stupidity"

8/17/12 5:42:25 AM#109
Originally posted by Palladin

In my opinion no game will have decent pvp unless it is based on character skills/player skill and gear should be trivial more for looks than anything else. Noone wants to run a dungeon 500 times for the "HELM OF GODLY MIGHT" just to have a group of douchbags gank it from him as he leaves the dungeon.

A characters power should be inheirent in the character not in his gear.

 

An alternative is that you hugely increase the drop rate, so that the players have an "easy come, easy go" outlook to their gear.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  Malcanis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 3201

"A very special kind of stupidity"

8/17/12 5:48:46 AM#110
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by mmoDAD

PvP SUCKS because it's boring. PVP SUCKS because of WoW's precedent Battleground system and it's viral infection to other MMOs. 

Redundant Warzones? I thought this was a MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER game. There is nothing MASSIVE about small Counter-Strike-sized games.

PvP Gear = Stupidest idea I've ever heard. Battlegrounds are so boring that they need to provide this kind of incentive for people to play them. It's a lazy way to avoid having to actually knuckle down and do some real coding for meaning world pvp with proper sanctions to protect lowbies from max levelers.

PvP Sucks because it's almost always virtual socialism. Everything must be equal! Blah Blah. If I spend an entire month raiding for good gear and increasing my player skill, I should be able to bash the hell out of some weekend warrior. 

Eh?  WOW's BG/Arena system takes a step closer to pure PVP (the overwhelming choice of PVPers: PVP purely about skill and teamwork; no zerging; no progression advantage.)

Because it was closer to a pure PVP experience, it's been rather popular (but still nowhere near as popular as truly pure PVP.)

Nothing says instanced PVP can't be massive though.  (See Planetside 1, Planetside 2, and GW2.)  Although in all these examples the thing that separates them from bad world PVP is a population limit, so that more (ideally nearly all) battles are between even teams.  This makes player skill and teamwork matter more.

 

But as I've mentioned before Axel, your conception of PvP is purely limited to "tournament" style PvP, with artificial constraints to ensure "fairness" - ie: to reward the skills you have and promote the style you like. It's OK to prefer PvP that you're good at, but it's not OK to dismiss any other kind of PvP as "not really PvP".  If you happen to have good reflexes and a steady hand, but I have good social skills and a bent for strategy, then my idea of "fair" PvP might be different from yours, which deprecates my skills and exalts yours. Obviously I'll want to be able to use my social skills to make allies who can help me, and my strategic insight will benefit from a large varied terrain.

By way of an analogy, imagine a Barbarian talking about fighting to an Archer:

"The only real, fair PvP starts at 5 yards away in open terrain!"

 

Well of course the barbarian wants that kind of PvP, because it matches his skills and preferences. But the Archer will have very different ideas.

Give me liberty or give me lasers

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1108

8/17/12 6:26:26 AM#111
Originally posted by Malcanis
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by tixylix

I only like open world PVP, don't bother with any thing else because why play an MMO if you want arena or BGs? Might as well play CS or something....

Sadly open world PVP doesn't exist any more outside Dayz really and that isn't even an MMO, though it's more like one than most MMOs these days.

You forgot Eve Online, open world PvP is in that too.

 

It's more that tixylix would rather cover his fingers in steak sauce and stick them through the bars of the wolverine cage in the zoo than use those fingers to type anything positive about CCP or EVE.

 

I don't like the structure of EVEs PVP because you cannot solo it and I'm a solo PVPer. People say you can but my experience is everyone groups and the winner is the people with the most ships generally. Really the only ppl who solo now are in nano ships and they take out one or two frigates before warping away because they jump in with a massive group. You'll never solo PVP killing Battleships or Battlecruisers or anything with a slight tank because their friends will just jump in.

I also hate the whole gate mechanic, to me all PVP starts around gates and I just hate it. I would much reather a seamless experience with no gates, no loading, I want PVP to feel fluid. The whole losing aggro and docking or warping away pisses me off, I tried factional warfare and the enemies I was fighting just kept going to a station and docking and undocking in an friendly station to my faction....... like the shouldn't be able to dock in the first place. I was hoping walking in stations would let you chase them in there and kill them but it turned out to be a dumb avatar in a room thing.

0.0 died for me with capital ships, just throw as many capital ships at each other now. What's worse is they're so big they look dumb, make PVP look like a mess and animate so poorly like they pivit ultra fast and it looks so bad.

To me CCP have done a poor job and all my friends have since quit the game so I have no reason to ever go back. People try to tell you that you're wrong but it's always the same experience, realise how tedious, repetitive and grindy the game is and then you end up never logging in because you don't want to play other than training skills.

  dave6660

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2320

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

8/17/12 9:06:50 AM#112
Judging by the responses I wonder whether some of the self described mmorpg players really want to play an mmorpg.  It sounds more like they want Halo or CoD.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  LordPsychodi

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/07
Posts: 102

8/18/12 3:21:26 AM#113

if I can make a few statements of my own opinion, please indulge in reading.

I have played many games. Ultima Online pre trammel when I was a teen. Everquest, City of heroes, World of Warcraft, and EVE online. Each and every game I appreciated and enjoyed deeply. From open world PvP in Uo thatg was fast and furious with vanquishing weapons on the line, to 40 man naxxramas in Wow, to a deep member of Goonswarm in EVE online in the height  of the great EVE war and playing until 2011, I can say these are all wonderful memories. Battlegrounds and arenas in City of Heroes and World of warcratt meant different things for a lot of reasons. Class structure versus skill structure is not some opposing force, it is a design choice.  Likewise, the degree of gear versus skill are all great in their variety, not because any style is superiror to one or another.

 

I remember in EVE online and Ultima Online, the gear disparity was worse than even World of warcraft. Simply by being good and investing more initially, my enemies fell more ofthen than I did. between salvage of gear, and more people swaying to the side of the victor for safety, eventually I had 50 sets of gear in UO between mules and friends the best that could be had to fight others. in Goonswarm, i had a HUNDRED  battleships fitted, and insuring them was easy., with 10 billion isk to back that up. the average pubbie could not hope to compensate. And always i began to realize games sadly do need artifiial hard coded boundaries in the hopes to keep things fair, because sadly, the fact that i may have invested many hours beforehand in the game to get where I was was NOT a good thing at all. As kuch as many may wish to deny it, if i had to choose a side to join, I;'d choose the side i thought I could win with more or at least have an even chance with would be the one I'd clan with anyday. No sense in nobility beyond it was unless toppling a super nerd empire like SirMolle who took EVE Online too seriously.

 

It seems  that NO system is perfect, and very few is in any way definably better than another. It comes down to a matter of personal taste and flavor that has no basis for being superior of one against the other particular game.

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