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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Reason PvP sucks in most games

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113 posts found
  Lienhart

Novice Member

Joined: 5/21/07
Posts: 673

8/07/12 10:11:17 AM#21

Actually, you're all wrong.

Most MMO PvP are usually

Time invested == Skill

That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

Effective Time Invested == Skill

However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

  L0C0Man

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/09
Posts: 919

8/07/12 10:12:09 AM#22
Originally posted by Palladin
Originally posted by L0C0Man

PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.

IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.

I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.

That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does  have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.

What can men do against such reckless hate?

  Blackbrrd

Novice Member

Joined: 2/24/09
Posts: 812

8/07/12 10:13:11 AM#23
Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

The Secret World has neither issue 1), 2), 3) or 4) so maybe you should try it out? :p

Anyway, the biggest reason PvP sucks in a game is that it isn't fun in itself and people just do it for rewards. I played games like Counterstrike for years just for the fun of being the last player on a team and finishing up the opposition. ;)

  User Deleted
8/07/12 10:14:05 AM#24
Originally posted by Palladin

1. It is forced on all players in the open world I.E. Darkfall, Vanguard, Shadowbane

2. PvP specific gear

3. PvP specific gear for event pvp such as BGs and arena.

4. gear from 2 and 3 used in open world pvp.

5. Movement during combat is to fast and furious it should be reduced by 50%

 

IT'S MY OPINION:

BGs and Arenas are fine if the gear rewards only work in those events but should never be allowed in open world.

PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

I see no reason for pvp specific gear

Issue is that that you are dividing up the players by what they like, and making any rewards they gain meaningless outside of that activity. I mean why go out into the open world to pvp when all the gear you gained from bg/arenas is worthless in that area, and so they stay in their own little world. I see movement aas more of a fact that alot of gamers that came into mmo pvp now are more of the fps gamers that like fast paced games, and so if you reduce it in those games they play it would negatively effect those playing really. In a open world seting it actually can give alot of realism to the world if you can be attacked in it by people without warning, i mean in midevil times a commoner couold be attacked by highway robbers just as much as royalty, or nobility could, but there should be consiquences that haappen from it for the robbers as well.

 

I see less of a reason for pvp/pve-only stats that have no use outside of one form of content, weither tht be pve or pvp content. Yet gear that is well for the lack of a better term  pvp or pve oriented stat-wise to have it proform differently baased on what you are parrticipating is what i would more see as a better idea. I mean why would a person doing pvp content purchase a suit or armor or a weapn that is focusedfor  use in pve content, if for many they never may not even go into pve content. So i will agree that gear which is sole built to only function in one aspect of play such as having stats that have no effect on pve or pvp content is bad, but havving gear that is actually built to help people excell in a certain area of the game, while still beign of use in others seem perfectly fine.

  User Deleted
8/07/12 10:14:17 AM#25
Originally posted by Lienhart

Actually, you're all wrong.

Most MMO PvP are usually

Time invested == Skill

That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

Effective Time Invested == Skill

However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

I actually already covered that:

"Extreme vertical progression.

Extreme itemization."

 

 

 

  Kuppa

Novice Member

Joined: 9/24/10
Posts: 3443

The problem with censorship is ********

8/07/12 10:16:42 AM#26

I think pvp "sucking" in most games is actually very simple. Most games reward only the players who spend absurd amount of times playing the game. By giving them better gear or better buffs or better skills ect. The problem with that is that when other players that havent spend much time come to play they get destroyed. What this causes is a small layer of folks who are the ones who enjoy pvp, while the others dont.

 

In the old days like DAOC, you could get away with this. Because the populations were tiny compared to today's and almost everyone was part of that top layer of folks who loved to spend all their time in game. And even when they weren't playing a lot they were "hardcore" so they enjoyed it for what it was. It was a community of the same sort of folks.

 

Today, there are way more people playing MMOs. Now, MMOs need to cope with the reality that they have to change in order to be successful. They need to be able to match those tiers of players accordingly. Using match making and not giving anyone an advantage because they played more, in reality they don't need an advantage because their experience and honed skills should be enough.


  User Deleted
8/07/12 10:24:44 AM#27
Originally posted by L0C0Man
Originally posted by Palladin
Originally posted by L0C0Man

PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.

IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.

I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.

That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does  have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.

I actually would say that a pvp and pve set up in a mmo world would work without seperating it into two different parts of the world. I mean for forced open world pvp if you  actually make ganking, griefing,a nd such have a increasing negative effect on the person doing it, than you very well could curb the amount of such activities happening by increasing the chances of them being punished or the sevarity of the punishement they are dealing with. Such as making them have a chance to have bands of npcs coming out into the game world to hunt them (offline or online), having random players getting questss or requests to kill the player for a reward (gold, loot, titles, and such). Also having the system actually detect if a player is a mob or player-character, and then having each ability having a seperate effect based on which you are hitting, that way you can just effect one side of the abiliies by targeting pvp or pve side of the ability. I mean in wow some abilties do just that their effect changes based on if you hit a mob or character, and so i am sure you could take that further that all aspects fo the abilites could have a pvp an pve setting.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3285

8/07/12 10:27:26 AM#28
For me.. I hate the small canned PvP zones.. BORING.. I want open world (consensual) or large PvP battles like Ateratc Valley or WvWvW in GW2..   Everything else fails.. 
  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/07/12 10:56:56 AM#29

Personally I value PVP when it's purely a contest of skill.  So that automatically removes MMORPGs from the equation due to gear advantages and population advantages (ie zerging.)  These are non-skill (or at best really shallow) factors which exert significant influence over fights, when all I want in a good PVP game is to enter a match and win or lose based on my skill and teamwork

So in MMORPGs I stick with PVE (and love the RIFT option I found the other day where if it's checked there's absolutely no way to flag yourself for PVP, including how it prevents you from healing flagged players.)

Then I go and get my PVP from games like TF2, Tribes Ascend, and Smite.  (Smite is awesome and since that's 3 games in a row I've loved from Hirez I guess now that makes me a raving Hirez fanboy, just as Trion is steadily turning me into a Trion fanboy.)  Basically most PVP games where skill is the only thing causing you to win or lose (although I do tend to avoid things like multiplayer TBSes, because they don't flow very well, and FFA multiplayer because it usually eliminates aggressive play as a viable option.)

But yeah for MMORPG PVP I find the competition hinges on really dull questions like "Who brought more players to the fight?" or "Who's grinded gear/progression longer?"  These questions tend to predetermine combat, which makes it predictable and dull, and not a contest of skill.

GW2's WvW is actually right on the verge of being awesome Planetside-like PVP (but with MMORPG combat; and actually about a year after I started playing Planetside I had mentioned that it'd be fantastic if a game did that style of massive PVP so it's cool to finally see it happen.)  Basically if GW2 did a couple small changes it would make WvW amazing:

  • Ensure gear doesn't matter.  Not one stat point.
  • Ensure progression doesn't matter, so that low-level players can join WvW and not only avoid being deadweight, but be on completely even footing.
  • Ensure population doesn't matter.  Mostly by lowering the population cap to islands slightly and dynamically adding islands once each successive one is pop-capped.  Pop-capped islands are even team fights, so the more of those which happen the more frequently things will boil down to how and where you use those players, not how many players you happen to have online right now.
  negativf4kk

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 348

8/07/12 11:03:02 AM#30

reason is simple - there is no reason to pvp but for gear or title. and this kind of pvp get boring very quickly.

there r no good pvp games on a market at all. they r either old or with pay to win cash-shop.  Most mmo made r done for PvE crowd, 90%pve 10%pvp. 

Other reason is ***** community.  Minute they can pvp, they go and look for someone weaker or under lvled and undergeared.  But to scared to attack higher lvl players, many times witnessed it myself.

 

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  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

8/07/12 12:03:13 PM#31
Originally posted by Asuran24
Originally posted by L0C0Man
Originally posted by Palladin
Originally posted by L0C0Man

PvP sucks in most games, IMHO, because developers are trying to fuse two completely different and in many way opposites playing styles (PvP and PvE) and forcing them to work together, and adjusting something to work in PvE might break it in PvP and the other way around.

IMHO there are two kind of games that really got it right, one is the EVE style where the whole game is centered around the idea that the enemies are the players, and no real attempt is made on PvE balancing, and the other is the GW1/GW2 style, where PvE and PvP are completely separated, and even skills work differently when entering PvP areas, so adjusting them for PvE doesn't break PvP, and the other way around.

I completly disagree I think pvp and pve can exist in one game... I think GW2 has it right.

That was my point, GW2 has it right because while it does  have PvP and PvE, they're completely segregated from each other. You can't PvP on PvE areas, and while there are a couple of PvE encounters in WvW, once you enter in PvP areas is balanced towards PvP with some skills behaving differently, health (and armor and skills in sPvP) normalization and the like.

I actually would say that a pvp and pve set up in a mmo world would work without seperating it into two different parts of the world. I mean for forced open world pvp if you  actually make ganking, griefing,a nd such have a increasing negative effect on the person doing it, than you very well could curb the amount of such activities happening by increasing the chances of them being punished or the sevarity of the punishement they are dealing with. Such as making them have a chance to have bands of npcs coming out into the game world to hunt them (offline or online), having random players getting questss or requests to kill the player for a reward (gold, loot, titles, and such). Also having the system actually detect if a player is a mob or player-character, and then having each ability having a seperate effect based on which you are hitting, that way you can just effect one side of the abiliies by targeting pvp or pve side of the ability. I mean in wow some abilties do just that their effect changes based on if you hit a mob or character, and so i am sure you could take that further that all aspects fo the abilites could have a pvp an pve setting.

PVP and PVE can never coexist within one realm, its very simple, Certain Class will be better than others in doing the same thing. That is to create variety, but it only works for PVE, therefore there is no balance between classes.

So unless everyone is okay with being classless and everyone can choose to become whatever they want, then no PVP will ever work with PVE.

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 466

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

8/07/12 12:17:57 PM#32
Originally posted by tixylix

I only like open world PVP, don't bother with any thing else because why play an MMO if you want arena or BGs? Might as well play CS or something....

Sadly open world PVP doesn't exist any more outside Dayz really and that isn't even an MMO, though it's more like one than most MMOs these days.

You forgot Eve Online, open world PvP is in that too.

Where's the any key?

  Kiljaedenas

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 466

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

8/07/12 12:22:16 PM#33
Originally posted by Lienhart

Actually, you're all wrong.

Most MMO PvP are usually

Time invested == Skill

That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

Effective Time Invested == Skill

However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.

Where's the any key?

  UsulDaNeriak

Novice Member

Joined: 2/19/07
Posts: 642

8/07/12 12:23:05 PM#34
I prefer PvP, where fighters win just battles, but crafters win wars and traders and politicians beat them all. So the points of the OP are irrelevant in my game. In such a game you can of course have a very worthful and even peaceful coexistance of PvE and PvP.

played: Everquest I (6 years), EVE (3 years)
months: EQII, Vanguard, Siedler Online, SWTOR, Guild Wars 2
weeks: WoW, Shaiya, Darkfall, Florensia, Entropia, Aion, Lotro, Fallen Earth, Uncharted Waters
days: DDO, RoM, FFXIV, STO, Atlantica, PotBS, Maestia, WAR, AoC, Gods&Heroes, Cultures, RIFT, Forsaken World, Allodds

  cronius77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1300

8/07/12 12:32:50 PM#35

to bad shadowbane was a buggy pos and never really took off because of the hacks and duping going on . I wish more companies would go with the shadowbane pvp system for large scale siege. But then again the community nowadays and guilds in no way could take it , once a guild city was destroyed in shadowbane so many people guild hoped and quit that guild destroying it completely .

My issues with the current pvp systems in games is pvp gear with added stats for pvp only with large amounts of grinding , crap games like Rift and WOW.

Second issue is way to much c/c in games with way to long timers. That is the lazy developer way of making pvp last longer. Games should not allow every single class to have stupid amounts of c/c with long durations. Then pvp goes from tactical to who can c/c the other team first wins. At least in old games like DAOC classes were given c/c breakers and they didnt use that crappy deminishing return formula that all these jokes of games use today. Back then if you were c/c you got a 1 min immunity to it vs each type of c/c snare root stun and mes all on seperate timers for immunity.

Lack of real pvp objectives that matter is another joke in games now. If you want more people to pvp and have fun doing it make it worthwhile to do so , increase money and exp for doing it add in buffs to the entire realm for a very large battleground. People have no reason to fight nowadays or they just sit in a warzone and /afk the entire time because you get faster experience that way .

  silvermember

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 501

8/07/12 12:44:41 PM#36
Originally posted by negativf4kk

reason is simple - there is no reason to pvp but for gear or title. and this kind of pvp get boring very quickly.

there r no good pvp games on a market at all. they r either old or with pay to win cash-shop.  Most mmo made r done for PvE crowd, 90%pve 10%pvp. 

Other reason is ***** community.  Minute they can pvp, they go and look for someone weaker or under lvled and undergeared.  But to scared to attack higher lvl players, many times witnessed it myself.

 

If you need an external reason to PvP other than your love for PvP then you are not really a PvPer but a guy that wants rewards to PvP, and yes there is a difference.

The green part has more to do with the human nature per say. In the real world it takes a significant amount of effort to show sportsmanship even with the face to face interaction usually involved. Now take out the face to face involvement and replace it with anonymity and BAM, you got an MMO player. Also a lot of people like to win at all cost, it doesn't matter to them how they do it because it's fun for them. Honestly, you are expecting too much from strangers. Which is why developers HAVE to be the ones that prevent bad things such as higher levels and better gear attacking undergeared  players. Unfortunately, most developers either don't have the guts or are too lazy to implement features to prevent such a thing.

  ThemePork

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/11
Posts: 317

Pork, it's like beef but not quite.

8/07/12 12:49:08 PM#37
Originally posted by Palladin
PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

PvP is never forced on players, they can always chose to play other games where the PvP ruleset is more to their liking.

When you enter a Japanese restaurant, do you complain about the food only being Japanese? Most probably not.

It's the same with PvP, you don't start playing a FFA PvP game only to complain that you get ganked all the time while questing.

  Valua

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 521

8/07/12 12:51:00 PM#38

PvP sucks in most games because of two reasons...

 

1.) PvP gear, it makes people who have played/grinded longer better than those who haven't played/grinded as long, which then brings us to the next point...

 

2.) Bad PvP grouping machanics, in most instanced PvP you are put in random groups, you might have only just hit the cap level and you are suddenly playing with people who have been the cap level for a while (which goes back to point 1.)

 

In order to have fun PvP it should be completely balanced, not class balance, but stat/gear balanced. I do think that those who play longer should have an advantage, but I believe it should only be a small advantage.

 

When you're losing PvP because you're undergeared, or because your group is not as well geared as the other group, it's not fun.

 

When you're winning hands down because you are much better geared, or your group is, than the other group it is also not fun.

 

No one wants to be two shotted, no one wants to two shot, it's not fun. People like a challenge.

 

Stat/gear balance is key to PvP, but no MMO's seem to believe this. GW2 might change this though.

  General-Zod

Novice Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 550

Kneel.

8/07/12 12:59:44 PM#39
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by Lienhart

Actually, you're all wrong.

Most MMO PvP are usually

Time invested == Skill

That is the reason why MMO PvP is shit. Compare this to other genres that have PvP, it suddenly becomes

Effective Time Invested == Skill

However, MMOs are created to take the OCD in us and slam it till we break.

What's wrong with this? Why shouldn't someone who's spent a lot of time practising PvP be better than someone who hasn't? That's usually the way it works in any PvP game. If for example I went and played a couple of rounds of Counterstrike I'd fully expect someone who plays a couple of hours a day to kick my ass up down and sideways compared to me who plays at most once a week (and often not even that). It's simple, raw fact; if you spend a lot of time doing something you get good at it. So of course time invested = skill.

I believe what Lienhart is talking about is the accumulated advantage "over time" regardless of skill.

Take 2 players... Player A and Player B are just starting out in a new MMO

Player A, usually has 3 hours a day to play.. hand-eye cordination isnt good but he makes up for it with experience.

Player B, has only about 2 hours to play sporadically throughout the week.. he has great hand-eye cord and reflexes.

After a span of 2 months player A and B meet up in battle and player A kills player B due to the equipment he obtained through raiding (which of course everybody knows raids are time consuming). Using your counterstrike example player A wouldnt last a week against player B because... [skill/talent > Weapons/experience]

  Torik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2324

8/07/12 1:11:23 PM#40
Originally posted by ThemePork
Originally posted by Palladin
PvP should never be forced on anyone unless they "chose" to engage.

PvP is never forced on players, they can always chose to play other games where the PvP ruleset is more to their liking.

When you enter a Japanese restaurant, do you complain about the food only being Japanese? Most probably not.

It's the same with PvP, you don't start playing a FFA PvP game only to complain that you get ganked all the time while questing.

Non-consensual PvP creates it's own 'black hole' that sucks in all other features of the game.  No matter how nice the other features of the game are, the game will always be about the PvP.  Too many times developers try to sell potential players on the idea that the non-consensual PvP is just one of the many features.  However, this is wrong. If you have non-consensual it will affect everything in the game and if you are unwilling to deal with that, you should not play that game. 

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