Isn't it the same with gear, though? Only the top whatever percent would have the absolute best gear in other games...

In all honesy, i prefer GW2 as it is more of a skill-based thing rather than whoever played for the longest time. Playing more makes you better, sure, but it's not as big a diff compared to gear-based game out there. I would see this system as being MORE fair rather than more unfair...

It's pretty easy to hide behind the masses in WvW.

You can look at WoW for an example. They had an area of the game where the highly skilled players weer able to compete with each other and less skilled players had a choice on whether they wanted to participate. As an alternative, they could also choose to go into random BGs and just have a little fun.

WvW is that replacement for casual style gamers to have some fun and contribute to something great for their side. WvW does not require excellence at duel style or arena style gaming as much as it requires a broader sense of strategy. There will also be random BG style stuff where people can go in and get some practice outside of tournament play.

It's hard to say how will it work in long term.

But good thing is that those skilled players will not get some uber PVP gear that will make them even more powerfull, so those with less skill still have chance to find build that suites them and maybe after a while also be a bit more skilled.

I hope that people will not be driven off. I know in WOW which i played mostly when I got to lvl cap and started pvp-ing there were players with few tiers of pvp gear higher than mine and that didn't help me even if I was skilled. Here at least, those that are skilled will not get better gear so they are stomping those with less skill even more.

That alone might motivate players to practice because eventually they might be able to catch up.

no, i dont think a potentially high degree of difficulty will negatively impact the game.

WvW will be a LOT more forgiving, a horde of lesser players can hitch onto and follwo instructions from some better players and be successful, in Spvp yeah good players will smach lesser ones.

there is also essentially easy and hard modes of pve dungeons, so as in any other game, some players will never be able to complete a harder difficulty level. has been that way since NES days. the regular pve is not hard, at all. even a real dullard will motor through it.

From what i've seen in the beta's so far, combat is pretty quick paced and lots of opportunity for skill based gameplay, especially in spvp. At least in my experience in spvp i was always matched up with players of similar skill, i wasnt stomping anyone and wasnt getting stomped on. I dont know if this was due to the games balancing system, or just my own skill level being average or something.  If it was in fact due to the matchmaking system then it seems like it might cater to more casual players as well.

PvE has lots of opprotunities for more casual gameplay, althought not nearly as easy as say WoW you can still take your time and progress through content with reletive ease, they just might have to skip a couple events though. On the other side, a more hardcore gamer could find challeng in trying to solo to duo some of the zone bosses as i found myself doing, a ton of fun i might add.  There are also things such as, crafting, exploring, minigames, jump puzzles to keep everyone occupied outside of combat.

Really cant say much about WvW since i didnt participate much, it seems fairly straightforward though with rushing keeps and seiging, not quite as demanding on the player as spvp.

Overall its a great game, casuals and hardcore are both going to enjoy it, there is enough content for the casuals to not feel left out, and there is enough competition for the hardcore players to not get bored.

Originally posted by killion81
GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.  The question I have is will this work for players over the long term?  The game is not going to cater to the average player, rather some upper percentage of skilled players.  I know everyone likes to believe they are highly skilled and will be the winner in a skill based game, but we all know that's not the case.  The minority will be the "winners", with the majority losing to them in sPvP and WvW.  Depending on how hard the dungeons and large scale DE's are, the majority may even "lose" in PvE.  If the top 25% of players in terms of skill are stomping out the other 75% of players with less skill, will it drive players off or will players work to increase their skill to a competitive level?  (These percentages are not based on any concrete numbers, but they are plausible and adequate for consideration of the idea behind the question.)

Keep in mind that all of the harder content in this game has tiers.

Dungeons have story mode & explorable mode. So, lesser skilled players should be able to accomplish storymode, but the rewards won't be quite as much as explorable mode.

Same deal w/ sPvP. There's regular games for lesser skilled players, and tournaments for the more hardcore.

Obviously, the people who are able to handle the harder difficulty will be rewarded more for it, but lesser skilled players can still experience the content on a weaker difficulty setting.

Originally posted by killion81
GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.  The question I have is will this work for players over the long term?  The game is not going to cater to the average player, rather some upper percentage of skilled players.  I know everyone likes to believe they are highly skilled and will be the winner in a skill based game, but we all know that's not the case.  The minority will be the "winners", with the majority losing to them in sPvP and WvW.  Depending on how hard the dungeons and large scale DE's are, the majority may even "lose" in PvE.  If the top 25% of players in terms of skill are stomping out the other 75% of players with less skill, will it drive players off or will players work to increase their skill to a competitive level?  (These percentages are not based on any concrete numbers, but they are plausible and adequate for consideration of the idea behind the question.)

One of the main issues with gear based games is that you don't really require skill to play them. This is why younger players are drawn to them.

Skill based gaming is a dexterity, as well as mind development type platform. These games are geared for more mature players and thus more likely to spend money. Now I know some very mature 14 year olds and some extremely immature 50 years olds.

But that does not stop them from developing in skills to play a game. I have witnessed many grow into skills while I have seen extremely few never develop skills.

Those that I have seen that don't develop usually have no real desire to play the game in the first place. While those that are really interested in what they are playing become better and better over time.

As for your percentages you are stating numbers that are mostly found in a game like WoW which is a gear based game. So those numbers have no relivents and should be removed even with your quailifier statement at the end of your post.

Originally posted by killion81
GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.

Not to me. Has gear just like any other game and I was doing quite well in pve content and PvP with a typical WoW-ish half-attentive playing. If this is skill based combat so is DDO.

Seriously, the GW2 people REALLY need to stop acting like this requires several levels more skill to play well than other games. It just doesn't. I'll grant it requires more skill, especially more than WoW. But it's hardly the other side of the coin.

PvE is cooperative,  not competative, so there is no rolfstomping of casuals by the hard core. Level Scaling and the cooperative nature of Dynamic Events give less skilled casuals plenty of outlets to continue thier leveling progress, even if they find they have trouble with content equal to their character level as they get deeper into the game.

For WvW, servers will be paired against other servers of similar prowess. There will be a large variety of skill levels for individual players in WvW, but it's a cooperative effort and the less skilled will be able to tag along with the more skilled. More skilled players may have a better ability to tackle small group objectives, where as the less skilled may prefer to stick with the larger scale battles, but there will be a role for everyone.

For sPvP, the most skilled will head up the leaderboards, will win formal tournaments and will earn prestige for their skill. However, there will be plenty of people of all skill levels playing matches and there is supposed to be the ability to designate some sPvP servers by skill level, so people can play in environments more suitable for their individual skill level.

The biggest difference here for sPvP players is that having more time to grind PvP will not reward you with artificial advantages beyond the fact that practice helps make perfect. I've always thought it was a little odd that in other games, the people who were already going to have an advantage due to play experience, would also be the ones who would receive a large, added advantage though a gear grind.

GW2 may suck for some gear grinder who dominated PvP in another game based more on successful gear grind, rather than player skill, but I think most people will appreciate that the game is based more on player skill and team work than some artificial boost.

the thing is those 75% less skilled players do not necessarily compete against the top 25% all the time.

they are match-made (subjected to the system working effectively) to compete against probably within the upper 10% and the lower 10% bracket of their server skill level. so most servers will win some and lose some. i expect to see a few servers (3-4 of em) being at the very top tier and the rest circulating goes up and down all the time. most likely everybody can have some good fun and that will deter them from leaving the game.

From what I have exeperienced from the stress test and the beta events, combat in PvE is quite easy. Not easy as in target monster, faceroll keyboard and kill monster, but rather easy as in being able to kill the normal monster quite easily just by kiting (hold down the "a" key) and using normal attacks. I think biggest challenge for most players in PvE is accidently arrgoing too many mobs, which can result in your death very quickly but other than that, soloing a normal mob 1v1 is not hard. And since you can't really LOSE in PvE because if you die, anyone can rez you, I don't think it'll hinder players all that much.

Now many dynamic event chains end is a type of boss or champion fight, and usually the more people there are, the harder it is, because as you all know these bosses scale to the amount of players there are. So killing a boss with alot of people might not be easier (I remember fighting a champion boss and thinking it'd be easy with 10+ people, mid way into fight, he aoe 1-2 hits all of us) but it is quite easy to kill some of these champions by using ranged weapon/abilities again with the kiting and occational dodging when you see a red circle on the ground. Now if you decide to meele these bosses of course it gets a LOT harder mainly cause the AI seem to target closer people to them.

But soloing normal mobs is no problem as long as you aren't too underleveled. Soloing bosses/champions (not dungeons) on the other hand does require skill. I remember trying to take on this giant tree thing (looks just like one of the human elite skill) and I thought even though it was a champion, it'd be easy kill cause I was ranging and I could kite, turned out no so. So I just asked in chat for some help and two other players came. Took us about 15 minutes to kill this guy, just some pure fun!

The monsters in dungeons are of course way more difficult, they aren't difficult as in they hit harder ( which they do), but they also have tricks up their sleeves. You actually have to think when to engage, when to run away, when to take out the minions, when and where to lure etc. But again with a coordinated group of players, or a random PUG with experienced players, it shouldn't be too difficult. 

On the PvP aspect, I think in WvWvW you just need to stay out of the red circles as there are very few opportunities where you have to 1v1 someone. If you are doing sPvP, then yes you will need skill and talent, similar to any MOBA games, when its small group of players, you need to have skill to win. Here's the best part (in my opinion), you need skill to win in sPvP, and like you point out in your thread not everyone has that, BUT the rewards from sPvP can't be used in PvE. I mean sure you can get titles and various other nifities but you don't get awesome better looking skins. So someone like me, who isn't all that skilled at PvP,  I won't have to participate in sPvP in order to get awesome super duper looking armor. I can just participate in WvWvW for that :) 

Originally posted by Beiloch

Originally posted by killion81
GW2 is marketed as being skill based over gear based and from what I have seen so far, it does seem to be the truth.

Not to me. Has gear just like any other game and I was doing quite well in pve content and PvP with a typical WoW-ish half-attentive playing. If this is skill based combat so is DDO.

Seriously, the GW2 people REALLY need to stop acting like this requires several levels more skill to play well than other games. It just doesn't. I'll grant it requires more skill, especially more than WoW. But it's hardly the other side of the coin.

Oh come on, DDO is one of the most skillless games out there.  All it is is a stats game and buffs and gear.  GW2 has a degree of skill in that you have choices in a build set up and have to curtail it to an encounter or your group with reaction being crucial unlike most MMOs out there.