Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Bladestrom
So cosmetic gear progression is bad, but if they have ever increasing stats that destroys the playability of everything appart from the last tier of items then the game has a rich end game. Brilliant. Read the above links if you are really interested in learning about alternate end game styles.

Ps bc, eve and gw1 have no stat progression- what do you think of those?

No. Atleast that's not how I feel. I feel only having a cosmetic gear grind is inadequate and a reach to call endgame.

 

 

luckily cosmetic gear is only one of the many options you have to strive for in GW2

And there is where this 60 page debate comes in :)

 

people have given a lot of examples on what you can strive for over the course of this thread.. If it's nothing that interests you that's fine but there is a LOT to do throughout this game and when you happen to reach level 80. On a side note why can't people see others may just enjoy the DE's and will do them for fun as part of their "endgame" You can go to any area you like and enjoy them. Most are varied and offer numerous options and outcomes unlike say Rift where its basically the same thing over and over. Orr looks like a lot of fun and I'm sure people will be spending a lot of time in there. Then you have PVP which is incredibly fun and is an entire other game within itself in many ways anyway.  If you enjoy the races, the classes, the pvp, the DE's, the exploration, the hidden things to find, you will be enjoying this game for a long time.

All of those things except Orr are the samethings you do all game though. Thus this debate. 

You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?

Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by BadSpock

Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

Some people just - don't - get it.

I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

It's sad. Very, very sad.

I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

Originally posted by bcbully

Buddy, I didn't start this fire.

What fire? All I see is you not understanding the concept of GW2.

Originally posted by bcbully

I never said that nor did I create this thread. 

I love cosmetics, but cosmetics only as endgame progression? That's thin and stretching it to call it endgame.

So don't call it end game. It's not end-game. Anet used the term because people have been asking - because they don't understand.

If anyone thinks Orr is going to be vastly different than the rest of the game - you will probably be setting yourself up to be disappointed.

GW2 - Let's talk endgame?

There is nothing to talk about.

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by BadSpock

Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

Some people just - don't - get it.

I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

You're not alone. Anyone who has played UO, AC1 or SWG know that MMORPGs can be done without real "end game" and without endless gear grind.

And apparently, posting on the GW2 forums is still more fun than playing TSW or contributing to its forums positively - what a great game it must be... ;-)

---

Originally posted by bcbully

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Originally posted by heartless

---

Originally posted by bcbully

---

Originally posted by BadSpock Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG) we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier... Some people just - don't - get it.

---

So people don't understand and only GW2 players do... 

---

Have you played GW1?

---

No, so that means I don't know what grinding for cosmetics is?

---

Anet has to worry about impressing its players and the media enough in order to generate sales, it's a loftier ambition than relying on a FORCED gear grind to access more content that then becomes irrelevant once the new gear grind comes in. If the whole game is end game then that game better be bloody good, nothing in GW2 is once only, it's going to have to stand repeats, this is where we see how their live team handle including new events and content to try and keep it fresh and relevant, to me thats a loftier ambition than just adding another raid tier.

Originally posted by colddog04

 

You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?

 

Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).

TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids (in less than 30 days) along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.

You see the difference?

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by BadSpock

People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

It's sad. Very, very sad.

I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

A lot more in common with UO/SWG than WoW/EQ is my point.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

Buddy, I didn't start this fire.

What fire? All I see is you not understanding the concept of GW2.

I don't see the kings clothes?

ok guys I'm out will check in later for any new developments.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Bladestrom
So cosmetic gear progression is bad, but if they have ever increasing stats that destroys the playability of everything appart from the last tier of items then the game has a rich end game. Brilliant. Read the above links if you are really interested in learning about alternate end game styles.

Ps bc, eve and gw1 have no stat progression- what do you think of those?

No. Atleast that's not how I feel. I feel only having a cosmetic gear grind is inadequate and a reach to call endgame.

 

 

luckily cosmetic gear is only one of the many options you have to strive for in GW2

And there is where this 60 page debate comes in :)

 

people have given a lot of examples on what you can strive for over the course of this thread.. If it's nothing that interests you that's fine but there is a LOT to do throughout this game and when you happen to reach level 80. On a side note why can't people see others may just enjoy the DE's and will do them for fun as part of their "endgame" You can go to any area you like and enjoy them. Most are varied and offer numerous options and outcomes unlike say Rift where its basically the same thing over and over. Orr looks like a lot of fun and I'm sure people will be spending a lot of time in there. Then you have PVP which is incredibly fun and is an entire other game within itself in many ways anyway.  If you enjoy the races, the classes, the pvp, the DE's, the exploration, the hidden things to find, you will be enjoying this game for a long time.

All of those things except Orr are the samethings you do all game though. Thus this debate. 

There is no debate. It's just you trying to come up with at least something that will make GW2 look less appealing. Give it up and go back to your game.

Buddy, I didn't start this fire.

 

62 pages says there is a debate going on. You dening that does not erase this thread.

 

edit - 63 pages.

How many of thoes pages are you refusing to stop spewing the same tired lines? Despite waves of people answering your garbage again and again.

Disgusting that you can continue this cherade with no intervention in sight.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by BadSpock

Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

Some people just - don't - get it.

I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

It's sad. Very, very sad.

I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

It relates in the openness of the game's world, in terms of where to go and what to do. You're not stuck in endgame zones and instances like in typical themeparks. You can go anywhere and the content will never be trivial.

Originally posted by Distopia

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by BadSpock

Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

Some people just - don't - get it.

I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

It's sad. Very, very sad.

I'm not seeing how GW2 relates though as UO and SWG were about communities providing long-term content, as well as the skill grinding being a path to your "end-game" profession and activity same with EVE. GW2 is still a content based game. The goal is to consume the content, not build the content, it doesn't offer that IMO.

Correct but in UO once you hit "cap" there was no stat progression. There was only content.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by colddog04

 

You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?

 

Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).

TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids (in less than 30 days) along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.

 

You see the difference?

All I see is a linear quest progression through 8 zones and harder versions of the same instances you already did as you were leveling up. Oh and zergy PvP.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by BadSpock

Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

Some people just - don't - get it.

I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

It's sad. Very, very sad.

 +1

Ah the good ole days.  I don't know why so many people are fixated on chasing carrots nowadays.  I mean, don't get me wrong, I love progression.  But I don't really care about numbers going up, I love progression because I love discovery.  Discovering a new ability, new skill combinations that open up with a new slot, new lands I can go to.  That's why I like progression.  I never got the appeal of watching 2049 turn into 2149. 

But I guess that's why I always quit themepark MMORPGs when or before I get max level.

Originally posted by bcbully

I love cosmetics, but cosmetics only as endgame progression? That's thin and stretching it to call it endgame.

If you love cosmetics (assuming we are talking about cosmetic items, and not makeup), then you should understand the appeal it can have for gamers.

GW2 isn't the first, and won't be the last game that has cosmetic rewards as the primary 'grind'. Every single MOBA has a cosmetic reward system. Planetside 2 is also releasing with a cosmetic reward system.

Cosmetic rewards aren't all that GW2 has to offer, but if someone can only think of games in terms of a verticle gear progression scheme, then they will absolutely fail to really understand what GW2 is doing. As BadSpock has pointed out, this isn't even the first MMO to have such an 'endgame', it's just that most people only know the skinnerbox model, and so they just can't comprehend a game that isn't based around the skinnerbox model. Furthermore, most people (on this site at least) seem to have gotten it in their head that MMOs can't have similar design mechanics to any other type of game, even when there's a ton of examples of this working just fine.

Originally posted by MidBoss

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by Bladestrom
So cosmetic gear progression is bad, but if they have ever increasing stats that destroys the playability of everything appart from the last tier of items then the game has a rich end game. Brilliant. Read the above links if you are really interested in learning about alternate end game styles.

Ps bc, eve and gw1 have no stat progression- what do you think of those?

No. Atleast that's not how I feel. I feel only having a cosmetic gear grind is inadequate and a reach to call endgame.

 

 

luckily cosmetic gear is only one of the many options you have to strive for in GW2

And there is where this 60 page debate comes in :)

 

people have given a lot of examples on what you can strive for over the course of this thread.. If it's nothing that interests you that's fine but there is a LOT to do throughout this game and when you happen to reach level 80. On a side note why can't people see others may just enjoy the DE's and will do them for fun as part of their "endgame" You can go to any area you like and enjoy them. Most are varied and offer numerous options and outcomes unlike say Rift where its basically the same thing over and over. Orr looks like a lot of fun and I'm sure people will be spending a lot of time in there. Then you have PVP which is incredibly fun and is an entire other game within itself in many ways anyway.  If you enjoy the races, the classes, the pvp, the DE's, the exploration, the hidden things to find, you will be enjoying this game for a long time.

All of those things except Orr are the samethings you do all game though. Thus this debate. 

There is no debate. It's just you trying to come up with at least something that will make GW2 look less appealing. Give it up and go back to your game.

Buddy, I didn't start this fire.

 

62 pages says there is a debate going on. You dening that does not erase this thread.

 

edit - 63 pages.

How many of thoes pages are you refusing to stop spewing the same tired lines? Despite waves of people answering your garbage again and again.

Disgusting that you can continue this cherade with no intervention in sight.

about 2 of those pages are from me saying that cosmetic gear grind alon as a form of endgame progression is weak and a stretch to call it end game at all.

I'm out forealz this time.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by colddog04

 

You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?

 

Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).

TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids in less than 30 days along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.

 

You see the difference?

TSW does not have raids right now. But I'll just magically say they are there for the sake of arguement.

You can do dungeons in GW2 and there are multiple difficulty levels. 

GW2 version of raids is Orr and it will have it at launch.

So no. I see only a semantic difference at best. Everything you do while leveling in TSW is the same stuff you do at max level. By your logic, TSW has no endgame because you can do it all as you level up.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by BadSpock

Oh, if people would have only played UO instead of EQ and all the clones of EQ (WoW, Rift, TSW, AoC, TERA etc. etc.) were instead UO clones (EvE, SWG)

we'd be able to explain GW2 "end game" so much easier...

Some people just - don't - get it.

I was thinking this. Glad to see some one else understands.

People who played games like UO and SWG "back in the day" instead of playing games like EQ and then all of its clones really can understand "GW2 endgame" a whole hell of a lot easier.

It was fairly easy to "max out" a toon in games like UO and SWG in terms of raw stats - so what did you do?

First of all the "end game" was not "maxing out" your toon - there really wasn't an end-game it was a journey and about the journey not the destination.

You built stuff, collected stuff, faught people for the sake of fighting them - took control of things for the sake of controlling them... saught ways to make yourself look unique or acquire rare trophies and items to display proudly for your friends and strangers.

You built community and relationships with people and ran and/or participated in events the community constructed.

These "other" MMO players just don't understand why you would spend X amount of time for a cool looking hat if the hat didn't give you any stat bonuses.

Or why you would "waste time" sitting in an inn playing chess.

It's sad. Very, very sad.

I have never played either UO or SWG (although I did play GW1) and I get the concept.  Thus, it's not a difficult concept to understand, which leads me to one logical conclusion:  Those who don't "understand" it, are just being obtuse.  If they stopped for a moment and thought outside their "endgame = raid = gear grind" mentality, they would figure it out pretty quickly.

I mean, how many times can the same thing be repeated in one thread and the same people over and over prove they don't get it?

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by colddog04

 

You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?

 

Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).

TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids (in less than 30 days) along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.

 

You see the difference?

All I see is a linear quest progression through 8 zones and harder versions of the same instances you already did as you were leveling up. Oh and zergy PvP.

Oh dear.

Another thing he's overlooking is that all the horiztonal skill progression TSW is overshadowed by the insanely heavy importance it places on gear. Thus, even though the cover of the game is based around customization, in reality it's still based off a gear grind skinner-box model. Only instead of grinding for 1 classes set of gear, you get to grind for all classes gear on 1 character. It's not unlike FFXI in that regard.

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by colddog04

 

You can do all the things you do in TSW while leveling at endgame as well. Does that mean TSW has no endgame?

 

Actually, because GW2 has Orr, GW2 actually has MORE endgame than TSW based on that horrible logic (once again).

TSW has elites, nightmares, and raids (in less than 30 days) along with cosmetics, and horizontal skill progression.

 

You see the difference?

Nope nor do I personally care. TSW did not interest me at all. If i wanted a game were I had to raid for the best gear (aka the hamster wheel) I'd stick with WoW and panda's. Atm i'm not really sure if you don't understand how GW2 is trying to be a little different, or if you care. Alot of us here like GW2, and I have not seen many of us go flame other game's, but that could be because I don't check those forum's much.