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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Let's talk endgame.

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702 posts found
  Aelious

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/11
Posts: 2361

World > Quest Progression

8/06/12 12:04:40 PM#521
Xiaoki

You already posted that a few pages back, no one is neglecting to read it. You have no idea how ANet is going to adjust for gear tiers or upgrades when scaling back. The BWEs seemed designed for play up to the point where you would have that gear.
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11397

8/06/12 12:10:10 PM#522
Originally posted by Xiaoki

In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.

ANET has said that live team will be actively adding new DEs beginning with the first day of launch

whether these new DEs are challenging w level scaling remains to be seen

 

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5544

8/06/12 12:33:27 PM#523
Originally posted by Xiaoki

I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference.


It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke.


In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all

People understand that it's imbalanced right now. I complained about it in every BETA weekend myself. They even commented on that very subject in the BETA weekends. They were still working on balancing the downscaling and will continue to tweek the system in place.

 

We have yet to see how far they are going to take it, but obviously, if they are going to implement a massive downscaling system in the game, they would prefer to actually have the players that use the feature to actually be downscaled enough to find the content challenging. It is likely that they just haven't quite reached a spot that makes sense.

 

We'll see soon enough how good they get the balancing, but they were indeed still balancing that aspect and were talking about it openly.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2435

8/06/12 12:41:59 PM#524


Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Xiaoki I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference. It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke. In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.  
It's true that low level content isn't tuned for a higher level character, higher level characters have utility and elite skills, not available for lower level characters. I believe the break point will be at level 30. At level 30 a character will have access to all skill slots (including elite) which can make a huge difference in battle. From 30 to 80 there shouldn't be such a huge difference in difficulty.


Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.


Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?

What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

8/06/12 12:55:41 PM#525
Originally posted by Xiaoki


Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.

 


Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?

What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?

The numbers get reduced. Quality stays the same, enhancements like runes are still there, but the bonuses from them are lower. a +20 to power might be dropped to +2 in a level 1 zone, etc. 

 

Again, you have a major, major advantage compared to running through it initially in grey/blue gear. but you're not gonna be one shotting everything, and you're not gonna be able to fight 50+ mobs  at once and never lose hp.

  seridan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/12
Posts: 1212

8/06/12 1:03:23 PM#526
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by seridan

Originally posted by Xiaoki I think what a lot of people are forgetting(or refusing to acknowledge) is that low level content is tuned for low level characters in low level gear NOT a downscaled level 80 in a full set of Exotic gear. There is a HUGE difference. It wont be fun or challenging it will be a sad joke. In the stress test last week I went some low levels areas I hadnt been to before on my level 30 Guardian in Masterwork gear and the only time I was ever in danger of dying is when I had 5 mobs on me. Yeah, it was fun to destroy the content with little chance of dying but it wasnt challenging at all.  
It's true that low level content isn't tuned for a higher level character, higher level characters have utility and elite skills, not available for lower level characters. I believe the break point will be at level 30. At level 30 a character will have access to all skill slots (including elite) which can make a huge difference in battle. From 30 to 80 there shouldn't be such a huge difference in difficulty.

Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.

 


Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?

What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?

Terrant answered this one above

Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  Derpybird

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/12
Posts: 1006

8/06/12 1:06:06 PM#527
Originally posted by terrant
Originally posted by Xiaoki


Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.

 


Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone?

What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?

The numbers get reduced. Quality stays the same, enhancements like runes are still there, but the bonuses from them are lower. a +20 to power might be dropped to +2 in a level 1 zone, etc. 

 

Again, you have a major, major advantage compared to running through it initially in grey/blue gear. but you're not gonna be one shotting everything, and you're not gonna be able to fight 50+ mobs  at once and never lose hp.

I do wish they had a way of normalizing gear for lower levels. I didn't see what is quoted in yellow above when I backtracked but then again I didn't look for it, so it may happen. There's no real way of controlling for the traits or the higher-tiered skills you unlock if you backtrack, other than the grey them out which wouldn't make sense.

I expect the starter zones, and probably the 15-25 zones, will always remain "easier" for high level players. I expect the curve to normalize in the later zones as they are already tuned for players that have unlocked their elite skills.

Of course, everything like this is just conjecture at this point. Still, I would rather have this than the systems that we normally see in place in MMOs.

"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3239

8/06/12 1:17:55 PM#528
Less than what bc? The only people that say revolutionary or ' paradigm' shift are the critics, it very weird isn't it?

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  seridan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/12
Posts: 1212

8/06/12 1:21:45 PM#529
Originally posted by Derpybird

I do with they had a way of normalizing gear for lower levels. I didn't see this when I backtracked but then again I didn't look for it. There's no real way of controlling for the traits or the higher-tiered skills you unlock if you backtrack, other than the grey them out which wouldn't make sense.

I expect the starter zones, and probably the 15-25 zones, will always remain "easier" for high level players. I expect the curve to normalize in the later zones as they are already tuned for players that have unlocked their elite skills.

Of course, everything like this is just conjecture at this point.

All buffs in the game depend on the effective player level. When you use a skill that grants might, the duration is fixed (based on the skill) but the magnitude depends on your effective level. If a character uses a skill that grants might at effective level 50 he will get a higher bonus than a level 10 using the same skill, but if they are both downleveled to level 5 they will get the exact same bonus to might.

The same goes for all traits buffs that give numerical boosts. Since the magnitude of all buffs scales with your effective level, a level 30 (That has access to all skill slots) and a level 80 will be roughly equal in strength when the downscaling occurs. Obviously, the level 80 will have more trait lines at higher ranks (or maxed) so he will have access to more buffs, but their effective power level won't be drastically different.

A level 30 downscaling to level 1 will have a very high advantage because of the utility skills and the elite. That's why level 30 will be the most vital level IMO. Level 30 players will also have an advantage in WvW over lower level players. After 30 the characters will be mostly normalised as far as level and skills are concerned.

Now I'm not sure if gear boosts downscale like the skills. If I have a level 80 sword that grants +500 might and go to level 1 zones, it makes sense that the +500 will become a +5 otherwise the player will indeed be a lot stronger than the area.

 

Edit: for example Might has this formula

0.375 * Level + 5 Power/Condition Damage per stack

Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  User Deleted
8/06/12 1:22:17 PM#530
In every game PvP is it for me, I worked hard for gear to PvP, and thats that, so I am happy my endgame starts at level 2 to some extent. =)
  DrunkWolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 1067

8/06/12 1:24:36 PM#531

at level 80 i will be doing the same thing as i will be doing at level 2. WvW pvp nothing else.

and if i get bored with that then i will play somthing different, and the best part is i wont be paying 15 bucks a month and feel like i have to play it every day to get my moneys worth. it will be like battlefield to me, log on when ever do some pvp kill some people log off.

  Chrisbox

Elite Member

Joined: 7/15/10
Posts: 1485

8/06/12 1:29:07 PM#532
You dont play this game with a rush to max mentality.  The entire game, is endgame.  For the first time ever, at max level, i can CHOOSE ANYTHING that I want to do, instead of lackluster content being generated by devs just for max level players. I do however, hope that low level content scales well for high level players, because i plan on visiting :).

Played-Everything
Playing-FFXIV:ARR,AA

  Rivalen

Novice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 509

8/06/12 1:29:19 PM#533

Let's get this straight:

- Competitive PvP will be endgame for alot of people.

- Being the top server in WvWvW will be endgame for alot of people.

- Completing Orr and triggering the meta events will be end game for alot of people.

- Completing all dungeons and getting the PVE sets will be end game for alot of people.

- Getting all the achievements will be the end game for alot of people.

 

What end game do you expect really?

Care to elaborate what is a proper endgame?

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3239

8/06/12 1:34:17 PM#534
No such thing as 'proper' end game. It's just a game that offers content that will keep you satisfied for a period of time that's it. Examples of contend are instances (aka raids in wow). All mmorgs including gw2.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Bladestrom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3239

8/06/12 1:37:45 PM#535
^^ have instances. The rather bizzare bone of contention are the posters who think because they love stat based progression, anything else does not work. Why are they so defensive is the interesting question, why do they care?

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Xiaoki

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2435

8/06/12 2:05:32 PM#536


Originally posted by terrant

Originally posted by Xiaoki


Yes, access to better skills will give you clear advantage but thats not what Im talking about.   Will the scaling system turn my level 80 Exotic gear into Basic or Fine gear if Im in a level 10 zone? What about my sigils, runes and jewels? What happens to them? What about food buffs? Obviously you wont have access to a Superior quality Rune 6 piece bonus at level 10 so does that go away in a level 10 zone?
The numbers get reduced. Quality stays the same, enhancements like runes are still there, but the bonuses from them are lower. a +20 to power might be dropped to +2 in a level 1 zone, etc. 

 

Again, you have a major, major advantage compared to running through it initially in grey/blue gear. but you're not gonna be one shotting everything, and you're not gonna be able to fight 50+ mobs  at once and never lose hp.



So, basically what you're saying is what Ive been saying.


You will have a "major, major advantage" when doing lower level content on a level 80 character.


The only way you wouldnt have a "major, major advantage" is if they were to actually delevel you instead of downscaling you. Everything you have access to that a lower level character would not will give you an ever increasing advantage. As in, if you go to a level 28 zone you no longer have an Elite skill.


Its not just stats its everything. The quality of the gear, sigils, jewels, rune bonuses, traits, stats from trait lines and anything else that a level 80 would have access to. All of it may seem minor when taken individually but cumulatively it becomes a "major, major advantage".


A downscaling formula can mathematically reduce the advantage you have from a sword but it cant mathematically reduce the advantage you have from your trait skills.

Such as - Inspiring Battle Standard - Banners also grant regeneration to allies.

A level 30 and level 80 Warrior both have access to the same Banner skills but a level 30 Warrior doesnt have access to that.

  JoeyMMO

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1326

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

8/06/12 2:16:23 PM#537
Originally posted by Istavaan
Originally posted by Teala
Going to have to tag this post to see what some of you think after 3 months.   :)


Do you like any mmo's? with every new release you turn up and start posting negatively about that up and coming game. You obviously have an agenda.

 Of course she has an agenda. She wants an AAA sandbox and she wants it now. All the rest just won't do.

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

8/06/12 2:18:53 PM#538
Originally posted by Xiaoki

So, basically what you're saying is what Ive been saying.

 


You will have a "major, major advantage" when doing lower level content on a level 80 character.


The only way you wouldnt have a "major, major advantage" is if they were to actually delevel you instead of downscaling you. Everything you have access to that a lower level character would not will give you an ever increasing advantage. As in, if you go to a level 28 zone you no longer have an Elite skill.


Its not just stats its everything. The quality of the gear, sigils, jewels, rune bonuses, traits, stats from trait lines and anything else that a level 80 would have access to. All of it may seem minor when taken individually but cumulatively it becomes a "major, major advantage".


A downscaling formula can mathematically reduce the advantage you have from a sword but it cant mathematically reduce the advantage you have from your trait skills.

Such as - Inspiring Battle Standard - Banners also grant regeneration to allies.

A level 30 and level 80 Warrior both have access to the same Banner skills but a level 30 Warrior doesnt have access to that.

Tway I read your inital comments, you were basically saying there's no difference between a level 80 ngoing to a level 1 zone in GW2, and one doing so in WoW. There is.

 

1) Your HP and armor are dropped to where enemies can and will do significant damage to you.

2) Mob drops will be equivalent to your real level.

3) You will continue to earn XP like you normally would at a zone of your level.

 

Will it be extremely difficult? no. Can it still pose a challenge? You betcha. can an ettin 1-shot you if you're stupid and stand in front of it? yup.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7166

8/06/12 2:23:15 PM#539
Well after 50 pages, I think it's far to say that GW2's endgame is in question.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  Xzen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/01/06
Posts: 2641

A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.
- Seneca

8/06/12 2:26:28 PM#540
Originally posted by bcbully
Well after 50 pages, I think it's far to say that GW2's endgame is in question.

It was established quite a few pages ago that GW2 does have "end game" "progression" and those that want stat progression might not like it.

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