Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by trillgod

whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

What's the point of getting stronger if in the end it will be obsolete by the next patch?

QFT,  big fan of the youtube stuff btw.  Great Crafting Guides. 

Originally posted by trillgod

whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

Whats the point of playing any game that doesn't have character progression?

Originally posted by Kethrym

Originally posted by Enigmatus

Originally posted by trillgod

whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

What's the point of getting stronger if in the end it will be obsolete by the next patch?

QFT,  big fan of the youtube stuff btw.  Great Crafting Guides. 

Uh...

I think you have mistaken me for someone else.

Originally posted by bcbully

http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Chopsticks

 

I will accept you apology when you give it.  I will not respond to anything else about TSW. This is about GW2. 

 

Apology for what? You're obviously exaggerating.  First where does it say days played on that link?

Here is my character a few days before I stopped playing. This is at about 4 days /played. You know the command in the game? For some reason the Chronicle didn't update itself to my most current character level but whatever. You're trying to tell me that at 14 days /played, you only have 50% when I had 37% at 4 days /played?

Either you're doing something wrong, I'm doing something right or you go AFK for hours on end. Or maybe you're just exaggerating. Unless all you do is PvP, then I can sort of see how what you claim is possible.

Originally posted by trillgod

whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

Usually the point of "getting stronger" is to get the gear necessary to do harder content. In other words, until your tanks have the mitigation, your healers have enough spell power or whatever, and your DPS hits hard enough, you are prevented from doing harder dungeons or raids etc.

What if that gate was removed an "progression" became tied to how well you played, be it in PvE or in PvP? Or how well you worked with your guild, or you team, or other players while doing content?

That's the general idea. Some people won't like it, but there it is.

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Chopsticks

 

I will accept you apology when you give it.  I will not respond to anything else about TSW. This is about GW2. 

 

Apology for what? You're obviously exaggerating.  First where does it say days played on that link?

Here is my character a few days before I stopped playing. This is at about 4 days /played. You know the command in the game? For some reason the Chronicle didn't update itself to my most current character level but whatever. You're trying to tell me that at 14 days /played, you only have 50% when I had 37% at 4 days /played?

Either you're doing something wrong, I'm doing something right or you go AFK for hours on end. Or maybe you're just exaggerating. Unless all you do is PvP, then I can sort of see how what you claim is possible.

He linked a picture that showed he has played 17 days 21 hours. Which means that he has played the game ~12 hours per day since release.

Here is the pic: http://s14.postimage.org/outsghvcv/Chopsticks_picture023.png

Obviously he is the exception to the rule. It looks like he has done a ton of PvPing according to his Chronicle. If he had been focusing on PvE for 12 hours/day since launch I'm sure he's be through all the content a long time ago. That is a ridiculously high average for an entire month.

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by trillgod whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

---

Usually the point of "getting stronger" is to get the gear necessary to do harder content. In other words, until your tanks have the mitigation, your healers have enough spell power or whatever, and your DPS hits hard enough, you are prevented from doing harder dungeons or raids etc.

What if that gate was removed an "progression" became tied to how well you played, be it in PvE or in PvP? Or how well you worked with your guild, or you team, or other players while doing content?

That's the general idea. Some people won't like it, but there it is.

---

Is there any statistical gear progression at all? If so, why? Why wouldn't all gear, from level one to eighty just adjust stats to your level? Then it would all be up to your skill and ability.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by heartless

Originally posted by bcbully

http://chronicle.thesecretworld.com/character/Chopsticks

 

I will accept you apology when you give it.  I will not respond to anything else about TSW. This is about GW2. 

 

Apology for what? You're obviously exaggerating.  First where does it say days played on that link?

Here is my character a few days before I stopped playing. This is at about 4 days /played. You know the command in the game? For some reason the Chronicle didn't update itself to my most current character level but whatever. You're trying to tell me that at 14 days /played, you only have 50% when I had 37% at 4 days /played?

Either you're doing something wrong, I'm doing something right or you go AFK for hours on end. Or maybe you're just exaggerating. Unless all you do is PvP, then I can sort of see how what you claim is possible.

He linked a picture that showed he has played 17 days 21 hours. Which means that he has played the game ~12 hours per day since release.

 

Here is the pic: http://s14.postimage.org/outsghvcv/Chopsticks_picture023.png

 

Obviously he is the exception to the rule. It looks like he has done a ton of PvPing according to his Chronicle. If he had been focusing on PvE for 12 hours/day since launch I'm sure he's be through all the content a long time ago. That is a ridiculously high average for an entire month.

That's pretty crazy. I guess if all you do is PvP, I can see how that is possible, since it's really not a very optimal way to get AP/SP apparently. Still, it doesn't mean that the game has a lot of content. It just shows that he deliberately ignored most of it.

Originally posted by pierth

 

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by trillgod whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

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Usually the point of "getting stronger" is to get the gear necessary to do harder content. In other words, until your tanks have the mitigation, your healers have enough spell power or whatever, and your DPS hits hard enough, you are prevented from doing harder dungeons or raids etc.

 

What if that gate was removed an "progression" became tied to how well you played, be it in PvE or in PvP? Or how well you worked with your guild, or you team, or other players while doing content?

That's the general idea. Some people won't like it, but there it is.

---

 

Is there any statistical gear progression at all? If so, why? Why wouldn't all gear, from level one to eighty just adjust stats to your level? Then it would all be up to your skill and ability.

if this thread is any indication people need some sort of progression to validate they are getting stronger. Personally just new skills would be fine for me and all gear just be cosmetic. But the way GW2 does it in a sense you cater to both types of people. It also allows you to scale the zones to add a sense of zone progression as well as you level.

Originally posted by pierth

 

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by trillgod whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

---

Usually the point of "getting stronger" is to get the gear necessary to do harder content. In other words, until your tanks have the mitigation, your healers have enough spell power or whatever, and your DPS hits hard enough, you are prevented from doing harder dungeons or raids etc.

 

What if that gate was removed an "progression" became tied to how well you played, be it in PvE or in PvP? Or how well you worked with your guild, or you team, or other players while doing content?

That's the general idea. Some people won't like it, but there it is.

---

 

Is there any statistical gear progression at all? If so, why? Why wouldn't all gear, from level one to eighty just adjust stats to your level? Then it would all be up to your skill and ability.

There is gear progression.

However, gear with best stats can be gained through crafting, dungeons, DE bosses and maybe pvp (not sure about last).

It's not like when you hit 80 you insta get best gear and that's it. You still have to find that best piece.

Only difference is that unlike most other MMORPG best gear is not in raids only and it should be easier to get for all.

    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

For me endgame starts if you run out of progression and you run out of content. Now the phase of repeating existing content starts which is called endgame. In endgame you:

- do instances over and over again. The difference with GW2 is, they focus here on group instances

- do open world encounters over and over again. The difference with GW2 is, that they have DEs here and due to player-scaling you can go back to lower zones. But the time will come, you have played all branches and then you will do it over and over again.

- do non-combat activities, which is mainly crafting. So you will craft stuff (mainly high-level) over and over again.

- do endless progression. The endless progression in GW2 is cosmetic progression. You will hunt for new shiny stuff over and over again.

- do pvp-battles over and over again. Even the WvW content is limited.

You will repeat this endgame until they launch an expansion with new content and perhaps a bit of further vertikal/horizontal progression, too. You will play it and then you are again in endgame.

On a high abstraction level, i dont see a big difference between GW2 and any other themepark here. There are no repeatable raid instances and no stats progression. This is replaced by group-content and a cosmetic item treatmill. The DEs could make the endgame different to a certain extent, if ArenaNet can change and extend them very fast between expansions. Something which seems far more difficult with classic questbased storycontent. However, a game-provider will never produce content fast enough for hardcore-gamers. These gamers will reach their endgame, even with expandable DEs.

The question is the same like in every theme-park: Will this repeatable content be interesting enough to keep players until next expansion and how fast they can produce expansions and content patches in order to keep these endgame-phases rather short for the majority. Arenanet expects, that players who love raid instances and endless stats progression are a minority. So you guys better dont buy GW2, if this is your one and only interest.

However it does not matter in the B2P model. Buy the game, enjoy it as long as you can and stop playing until the new expansion; rinse and repeat. This is of course not a solution for players not playing a game, but looking for a virtual world to live in for years. They might become problems if their personal rate of content consumption is way higher than content production by Arenanet and if they are not interested to repeat content as described above.

This problem is a bit different in sandboxes, because player-driven content is endless by nature. And open mainly horizontal and lateral skillprogression can be de facto endless, too. But that does not mean they would not have an endgame. Its just different and it can become boring in a different way.

This discussion is just going in circles.   Imho,  UsulD posted the above quoted (intelligent) reply, and the thread should have been locked after that.

Originally posted by pierth

 

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by trillgod whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

---

Usually the point of "getting stronger" is to get the gear necessary to do harder content. In other words, until your tanks have the mitigation, your healers have enough spell power or whatever, and your DPS hits hard enough, you are prevented from doing harder dungeons or raids etc.

 

What if that gate was removed an "progression" became tied to how well you played, be it in PvE or in PvP? Or how well you worked with your guild, or you team, or other players while doing content?

That's the general idea. Some people won't like it, but there it is.

---

 

Is there any statistical gear progression at all? If so, why? Why wouldn't all gear, from level one to eighty just adjust stats to your level? Then it would all be up to your skill and ability.

It was a design decision to have vertical progression plateauing in a horizontal progression model. I played GW1 for about a year when I took a break from WoW and remember hitting level 20 really fast, but kept playing because it was interesting content.

I'm not pretending that this system works for everyone. It won't. I was a progression raider, I get the whole allure of more powerful gear and bigger numbers flashing on the screen. However, I can easily see raiders buying this game and playing it on their non-raiding nights for a different kind of experience.

People buying this game should know what it is and what it isn't.

Originally posted by Gurpslord

Erm..

 

Legendary Weapons

WvWvW

sPvP

Dynamic Events

Traveling to the lands I Didn't go to and do stuff there.

The Combat System itself is a huge draw

Better looking gear (It's only cool to fight if you're fighting with swag mate)

Exploring the maps and try to do map completes

Choreographing my own GW2 musical about ninjas who steal turnips from baby charr who are sick with the Nornish plague.  (I may need help with this one..)

Swag... So it's only cool if secretely we are gay?

Originally posted by gelraen

    Originally posted by UsulDaNeriak

For me endgame starts if you run out of progression and you run out of content. Now the phase of repeating existing content starts which is called endgame. In endgame you:

- do instances over and over again. The difference with GW2 is, they focus here on group instances

- do open world encounters over and over again. The difference with GW2 is, that they have DEs here and due to player-scaling you can go back to lower zones. But the time will come, you have played all branches and then you will do it over and over again.

- do non-combat activities, which is mainly crafting. So you will craft stuff (mainly high-level) over and over again.

- do endless progression. The endless progression in GW2 is cosmetic progression. You will hunt for new shiny stuff over and over again.

- do pvp-battles over and over again. Even the WvW content is limited.

You will repeat this endgame until they launch an expansion with new content and perhaps a bit of further vertikal/horizontal progression, too. You will play it and then you are again in endgame.

On a high abstraction level, i dont see a big difference between GW2 and any other themepark here. There are no repeatable raid instances and no stats progression. This is replaced by group-content and a cosmetic item treatmill. The DEs could make the endgame different to a certain extent, if ArenaNet can change and extend them very fast between expansions. Something which seems far more difficult with classic questbased storycontent. However, a game-provider will never produce content fast enough for hardcore-gamers. These gamers will reach their endgame, even with expandable DEs.

The question is the same like in every theme-park: Will this repeatable content be interesting enough to keep players until next expansion and how fast they can produce expansions and content patches in order to keep these endgame-phases rather short for the majority. Arenanet expects, that players who love raid instances and endless stats progression are a minority. So you guys better dont buy GW2, if this is your one and only interest.

However it does not matter in the B2P model. Buy the game, enjoy it as long as you can and stop playing until the new expansion; rinse and repeat. This is of course not a solution for players not playing a game, but looking for a virtual world to live in for years. They might become problems if their personal rate of content consumption is way higher than content production by Arenanet and if they are not interested to repeat content as described above.

This problem is a bit different in sandboxes, because player-driven content is endless by nature. And open mainly horizontal and lateral skillprogression can be de facto endless, too. But that does not mean they would not have an endgame. Its just different and it can become boring in a different way.

This discussion is just going in circles.   Imho,  UsulD posted the above quoted (intelligent) reply, and the thread should have been locked after that.

As long as there are people who want GW2 to become a WoW clone, and then when they get bored of it, claim that it's a WoW clone and thus it's shit, and then leave, this merry go round is never going to end.

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by pierth  

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by trillgod whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

---

Usually the point of "getting stronger" is to get the gear necessary to do harder content. In other words, until your tanks have the mitigation, your healers have enough spell power or whatever, and your DPS hits hard enough, you are prevented from doing harder dungeons or raids etc.   What if that gate was removed an "progression" became tied to how well you played, be it in PvE or in PvP? Or how well you worked with your guild, or you team, or other players while doing content? That's the general idea. Some people won't like it, but there it is.

---

  Is there any statistical gear progression at all? If so, why? Why wouldn't all gear, from level one to eighty just adjust stats to your level? Then it would all be up to your skill and ability.

---

It was a design decision to have vertical progression plateauing in a horizontal progression model. I played GW1 for about a year when I took a break from WoW and remember hitting level 20 really fast, but kept playing because it was interesting content.

I'm not pretending that this system works for everyone. It won't. I was a progression raider, I get the whole allure of more powerful gear and bigger numbers flashing on the screen. However, I can easily see raiders buying this game and playing it on their non-raiding nights for a different kind of experience.

People buying this game should know what it is and what it isn't.

---

I personally don't have a problem with Anet focusing on horizontal progression at endgame, in fact from some of my first posts on this site that was something I thought would be necessary to keep content relevant. I just don't understand why all of these games seem to have a bait and switch type effect at "endgame."

Of course WoW's is much more pronounced and rigid compared to GW2 but if they don't want there to be such a disappointing game change at the level cap, then don't throw the goodies into the leveling game if you can't provide them for the endgame. Problem solved.

Originally posted by pierth

 

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by pierth  

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Originally posted by Derpybird

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Originally posted by trillgod whats the point of playing if you feel your character isnt getting stronger?

---

Usually the point of "getting stronger" is to get the gear necessary to do harder content. In other words, until your tanks have the mitigation, your healers have enough spell power or whatever, and your DPS hits hard enough, you are prevented from doing harder dungeons or raids etc.   What if that gate was removed an "progression" became tied to how well you played, be it in PvE or in PvP? Or how well you worked with your guild, or you team, or other players while doing content? That's the general idea. Some people won't like it, but there it is.

---

  Is there any statistical gear progression at all? If so, why? Why wouldn't all gear, from level one to eighty just adjust stats to your level? Then it would all be up to your skill and ability.

---

It was a design decision to have vertical progression plateauing in a horizontal progression model. I played GW1 for about a year when I took a break from WoW and remember hitting level 20 really fast, but kept playing because it was interesting content.

 

I'm not pretending that this system works for everyone. It won't. I was a progression raider, I get the whole allure of more powerful gear and bigger numbers flashing on the screen. However, I can easily see raiders buying this game and playing it on their non-raiding nights for a different kind of experience.

People buying this game should know what it is and what it isn't.

---

 

I personally don't have a problem with Anet focusing on horizontal progression at endgame, in fact from some of my first posts on this site that was something I thought would be necessary to keep content relevant. I just don't understand why all of these games seem to have a bait and switch type effect at "endgame."

Of course WoW's is much more pronounced and rigid compared to GW2 but if they don't want there to be such a disappointing game change at the level cap, then don't throw the goodies into the leveling game if you can't provide them for the endgame. Problem solved.

But they're not... New weapon skins and new aromor skins are the only horizontal paths, you could call it a path at that. And doesn't that cosmetic armor/weapon path exist in every mmo? 

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by pointchiz
Then your just a mouse chasing after a peice of cheese. +1 on this or +1 on that is a very shallow system. It's proven to be extremely effective to keep the hamsters running on the hamster wheel though.

 

that makes no sense. 

Actually it makes perfect sense.  WoW puts so much effort into raids and raid locks to keep you paying a sub fee.  No one seems to get this.  Endgame is ALL ABOUT KEEPING YOU PAYING, NOT PLAYING.

Originally posted by Eir_S

Originally posted by baphamet

 

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Originally posted by pointchiz
Then your just a mouse chasing after a peice of cheese. +1 on this or +1 on that is a very shallow system. It's proven to be extremely effective to keep the hamsters running on the hamster wheel though.

 

that makes no sense. 

Actually it makes perfect sense.  WoW puts so much effort into raids and raid locks to keep you paying a sub fee.  No one seems to get this.  Endgame is ALL ABOUT KEEPING YOU PAYING, NOT PLAYING.

Right, because ANet wont apply the same strategy for you to buy their Xpacs and items on the cash shop instead, am I right? I mean they only do it from the goodness of their hearts and for the gamers, god forbid if anyone of those people raiding in WoW were actually having fun, but if you weren't having fun then no one else can, no chance! It must be some sort of elaborate con from Blizzard! I am actually wondering what will be the impact on ANet now that Nexon has a controlling stake on NCSoft.