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General Discussion  » Biggest MMO Failure to date?

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510 posts found
  Bior337

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/12
Posts: 25

9/08/12 2:00:57 PM#461
Originally posted by Pelaaja
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by itgrowls

 Rift actually took more players from WoW then any other title so far, around 2mil. And now WoW has some of Rift's features trying to get those players back in MoP. AOE looting anyone? LOL Oh i know you're not making this stuff up, people will argue with you about it but i have the launch and prelaunch videos and the articles with that stuff in them.

 

? Wtf... lol, Rift didn't even have that many players, 2mil, let alone that they all got stolen from WoW. This sounds like utter made up nonsense.

It IS absolute nonsense. Rift already had to merge servers because they lost so many players. That's never, EVER been a good sign.

Ye, they did.

Nevertheless, Rift was and is a massive success

Merging servers has never, and will never, be a sign of success. It's a sign of decline. The most successful MMOs never hit their peak until their third or fourth year.

  Bior337

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/12
Posts: 25

9/08/12 2:01:36 PM#462
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue...

Yah, when you need tens of millons just to stay afloat and youre making only millions its called a failure.

So yah, ill give you a hint:

get a clue

Darkcrystal doesn't understand the difference between being in debt, and making a profit.

  kartool

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 452

9/08/12 2:13:17 PM#463
Originally posted by sammandar
Originally posted by grapevine

Certainly not SW:TOR.  I'd say one of the following:-

1) Auto Assault

2) Wish (didn't even make it out of beta)

3) APB (not Reloaded)

4) FF XIV

Leaning heavily towards (4).

Consider how much money SWTOR cost to produce and develop (at least $200mil), the cast of voice actors hired to do the voice overs and the names behind the game (Bioware, EA, Star Wars) and you're telling us that 1-4 were a bigger failure? I think not my friend.

There have certainly been other failures in the mmo genre, but by far I would consider SWTOR to be biggest failure of them all. Just my opinion of course :-)

What does the cost have to do with the failure aspect? Since no one but EA and Bioware have any exact financial numbers about TOR it's a moot point. The game isn't closed down, so it's not a failure - it's still making money. It did fail to meet expectations, but the game itself hasn't failed. 

F2P is a change in business model. SWTOR being a complete failure would end with the game closing down and ceasing to make any money at all. Is TOR a disappointment for many people? Yes it is, myself included. Will f2p bring people back to the game? I believe it will. It's been shown time and again with LoTRO, DCUO, DDO, etc. etc. that f2p is a perfectly viable business model and in most cases makes a game more profitable.

I re-subbed for a month out of curiousity and populations were healthy at early to mid-game. I didn't play enough to get to the higher level stuff because GW2 came out and I've been wasting my time there. What I saw in game was a night and day difference in server populations since they merged servers. They've made some improvements and if the game keeps trucking along it's possible it could go the way of AoC - a healthy game with a terrible reputation.

  kartool

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 452

9/08/12 2:16:19 PM#464
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue...

Yah, when you need tens of millons just to stay afloat and youre making only millions its called a failure.

So yah, ill give you a hint:

get a clue

You don't really understand the concept of return on investment, do you? It often takes time for large projects to break even and start making money. If you think TOR isn't going to end up making money when it goes f2p you're living in a fantasy world. 

  Bior337

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/12
Posts: 25

9/08/12 2:19:55 PM#465
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue...

Yah, when you need tens of millons just to stay afloat and youre making only millions its called a failure.

So yah, ill give you a hint:

get a clue

You don't really understand the concept of return on investment, do you? It often takes time for large projects to break even and start making money. If you think TOR isn't going to end up making money when it goes f2p you're living in a fantasy world. 

Considering they've already had to fire half the staff and merge the servers, I don't think Bioware or EA expects to be making their money back any time soon, or they wouldn't be firing devs left and right.

That, my friends, is a complete failure. You don't go into a new product PLANNING to get rid of your staff. Especially not on a product you hope to grow over the years.

 

And yes, we DO have financial records stated by EA, and other inside sources. It would have taken them about 750k subs for a year and a half to make up just the money they spent on development, not even marketing (which was probably almost as large given all the coverage and CGI trailers). Currently, they don't even have 1/4 that many subs, and its been half a year.

 

It is the most expensive MMO ever made, and it is without a doubt, an unmitigated failure.

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1184

9/08/12 2:25:13 PM#466
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

snip

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue... Ya the game did not meet expectations, nether did GW2, or any other game... But a failure fair from it,  to funny, and I do not play SWTOR as of right now, so call people fanboys all day.

 

Get a clue before you say a game fails, but if a game makes millions EA is laughing it up.... When it goes free they will make more just like DDO and LOTR did.. People/gamers today make me laugh, there is no such thing as a WOW killer, WOW came out when new gamers started the genre and Blizzard was a huge name....

Get a clue

Well the clue is what EA have said namely that:

SWTOR needed "1M+ subscribers to make a profit but nothing to write home about" - source JR EA CEO. And Ea were talking long term subs at the time (which analysts took to be 1 to 2 years). Note: 1M subs for 2 years would cover SWTOR's costs (first 500k) and then repay c. $180M (the 500k-1M subs).

And EA have never announced 1M+ "long term" subscribers. In Feb they announced 1.7M subs but subsequently clarified (in March) that just about half of these were continuing subs with the others being in their 30 day included period. So about 850k. Less than 1M.

So - according to EA's own data - they have not currently made "a profit but nothing to write home about". They also said that they had planned for 1.2M subs - which would have recovered their costs + profit and after 1 or 2 years the game would have paid for itself and they would have been making huge profits.

So no they haven't made millions - according to EA - they have lost money. So financially the game is a failure. And going forward, if the F2P model doesn't work, they may start to lose money on a day to day basis.

 

The trick is not to mistake operating costs - what you need to run the game day to day - with development costs. Think of buying am apartment to rent out. You go to the bank and take out a loan. You rent out the house and get paid - and after you have covered the cost of finding tennents, cleaning, insurance, security, repairs you are making a profit - yippee! Still have the bank loan to pay off though .... 

  kartool

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 452

9/08/12 2:54:03 PM#467
Originally posted by Bior337
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue...

Yah, when you need tens of millons just to stay afloat and youre making only millions its called a failure.

So yah, ill give you a hint:

get a clue

You don't really understand the concept of return on investment, do you? It often takes time for large projects to break even and start making money. If you think TOR isn't going to end up making money when it goes f2p you're living in a fantasy world. 

Considering they've already had to fire half the staff and merge the servers, I don't think Bioware or EA expects to be making their money back any time soon, or they wouldn't be firing devs left and right.

That, my friends, is a complete failure. You don't go into a new product PLANNING to get rid of your staff. Especially not on a product you hope to grow over the years.

 

And yes, we DO have financial records stated by EA, and other inside sources. It would have taken them about 750k subs for a year and a half to make up just the money they spent on development, not even marketing (which was probably almost as large given all the coverage and CGI trailers). Currently, they don't even have 1/4 that many subs, and its been half a year.

 

It is the most expensive MMO ever made, and it is without a doubt, an unmitigated failure.

So we have one source saying 500k subs, you saying 750k and someone else in this thread stating 1 million subs needed to break even. Inside sources? Like pissed off ex-employees who always stay impartial, huh.

Is the game shut down? No. Therefore it's not a failure. It didn't meet expecations and until they shut it down and show the game never made any profit, it's not a failure. People call AoC a failure yet it's healthy and has another expac coming soon.

This thread seems to not understand what actually constitutes failing in a business endeavour. If you run a business, you have to be able to change your business model according to market demand. Sticking to your plan no matter what is how you guarantee failure. Being able to change you business model and the direction of your product to better serve your customers or potential customers is how you succeed. This is what EA/Bioware are attempting to do.

If we're talking about failing to compete with WoW, then I'll agree with you 100%, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about the game itself failing which can't be determined yet.

 

  Bior337

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/12
Posts: 25

9/08/12 3:27:38 PM#468
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by Bior337
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue...

Yah, when you need tens of millons just to stay afloat and youre making only millions its called a failure.

So yah, ill give you a hint:

get a clue

You don't really understand the concept of return on investment, do you? It often takes time for large projects to break even and start making money. If you think TOR isn't going to end up making money when it goes f2p you're living in a fantasy world. 

Considering they've already had to fire half the staff and merge the servers, I don't think Bioware or EA expects to be making their money back any time soon, or they wouldn't be firing devs left and right.

That, my friends, is a complete failure. You don't go into a new product PLANNING to get rid of your staff. Especially not on a product you hope to grow over the years.

 

And yes, we DO have financial records stated by EA, and other inside sources. It would have taken them about 750k subs for a year and a half to make up just the money they spent on development, not even marketing (which was probably almost as large given all the coverage and CGI trailers). Currently, they don't even have 1/4 that many subs, and its been half a year.

 

It is the most expensive MMO ever made, and it is without a doubt, an unmitigated failure.

So we have one source saying 500k subs, you saying 750k and someone else in this thread stating 1 million subs needed to break even. Inside sources? Like pissed off ex-employees who always stay impartial, huh. A pissed off employee who has had his story confirmed by other people within the company, and who everything he said turned out to be true.

Is the game shut down? No. Therefore it's not a failure. Vanguard is still around, I guess that wasn't a failure either? Or Horizons? It didn't meet expecations and until they shut it down and show the game never made any profit, it's not a failure. People call AoC a failure yet it's healthy and has another expac coming soon. AoC bankrupted two companies and made a ton of people lose their jobs. They limp along with less subs than MMOs from the 90s have.


 

There's a good reason its called Tortanic. The biggest MMO ever built, more money lavished on it than any title to date. Two of the biggest development studios in the genre, the biggest science fiction IP in the world.

And a few months after launch and it is completely dead in the water, half the staff fired, most of the servers closed, and its being forced to go free just to find an audience.

I don't know how you manage to delude yourself into thinking that it didn't FAIL in what it tried to do.

  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

9/08/12 3:38:27 PM#469
Originally posted by Bior337
Originally posted by Pelaaja
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by itgrowls

 Rift actually took more players from WoW then any other title so far, around 2mil. And now WoW has some of Rift's features trying to get those players back in MoP. AOE looting anyone? LOL Oh i know you're not making this stuff up, people will argue with you about it but i have the launch and prelaunch videos and the articles with that stuff in them.

 

? Wtf... lol, Rift didn't even have that many players, 2mil, let alone that they all got stolen from WoW. This sounds like utter made up nonsense.

It IS absolute nonsense. Rift already had to merge servers because they lost so many players. That's never, EVER been a good sign.

Ye, they did.

Nevertheless, Rift was and is a massive success

Merging servers has never, and will never, be a sign of success. It's a sign of decline. The most successful MMOs never hit their peak until their third or fourth year.

wait, did someone actually claim Rift took 2 million of WoW's players?  At peak ft had 600k, and that was launch month.  By the end of the year it was down to 300k (250k is the mmodata estimate).  Now its even less.  56 NA servers are now down to 6-8 active ones.  I could see SL being a great expansion and maybe bumping it back up to 300k, but thats if the content rises above being 'more of the same.'

 

As for the thread topic, SWTOR currently has the second most subs in the region, and it probably isnt in any danger of falling any lower than that.  To say its a bigger failure than games that have had to close down is ludicrous.  The odds of SWTOOR making its money back are high, its just going to take a longer time than EA wanted.

  namelessbob

Novice Member

Joined: 2/26/04
Posts: 1512

"The internet is a series of tubes."
-Ted Stevens

9/08/12 3:40:16 PM#470
I actually think Tabula Rasa is one of the biggest MMo failures to date. If SWTOR was already shutting down then maybe, but they are adjusting to a more profitable revenue stream so I don't see it as a failure at all. Yeah the gameplay was not very enjoyable, but a failure it was not. At least not till they shut it down.
  Bior337

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/12
Posts: 25

9/08/12 3:58:41 PM#471
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Bior337
Originally posted by Pelaaja
Originally posted by Tibernicus
Originally posted by smh_alot
Originally posted by itgrowls

 Rift actually took more players from WoW then any other title so far, around 2mil. And now WoW has some of Rift's features trying to get those players back in MoP. AOE looting anyone? LOL Oh i know you're not making this stuff up, people will argue with you about it but i have the launch and prelaunch videos and the articles with that stuff in them.

 

? Wtf... lol, Rift didn't even have that many players, 2mil, let alone that they all got stolen from WoW. This sounds like utter made up nonsense.

It IS absolute nonsense. Rift already had to merge servers because they lost so many players. That's never, EVER been a good sign.

Ye, they did.

Nevertheless, Rift was and is a massive success

Merging servers has never, and will never, be a sign of success. It's a sign of decline. The most successful MMOs never hit their peak until their third or fourth year.

 As for the thread topic, SWTOR currently has the second most subs in the region, and it probably isnt in any danger of falling any lower than that.  To say its a bigger failure than games that have had to close down is ludicrous.  The odds of SWTOOR making its money back are high, its just going to take a longer time than EA wanted.

All sources show that subs have TANKED. Of course EA hasn't reported this, but virtually every other news source has. Their last numbers released (about 4 months ago) included all the accounts they gave free time to.

So no, they don't. And I'm pretty sure when you lose most of your staff and most of your servers, on the most expensive MMO ever made, with the STAR WARS IP...you're a failure.

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3712

RIP City of Heroes!

9/08/12 3:58:59 PM#472
Originally posted by namelessbob
I actually think Tabula Rasa is one of the biggest MMo failures to date. If SWTOR was already shutting down then maybe, but they are adjusting to a more profitable revenue stream so I don't see it as a failure at all. Yeah the gameplay was not very enjoyable, but a failure it was not. At least not till they shut it down.

I would go with TR being a bigger failure than swtor.  Swtor seems like a big deal due to the amount of money spent to produce the game.

  Bior337

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/12
Posts: 25

9/08/12 3:59:37 PM#473
Originally posted by namelessbob
I actually think Tabula Rasa is one of the biggest MMo failures to date. If SWTOR was already shutting down then maybe, but they are adjusting to a more profitable revenue stream so I don't see it as a failure at all. Yeah the gameplay was not very enjoyable, but a failure it was not. At least not till they shut it down.

They're going free to play because no one wants to play their game and they're bleeding subs, staff, and servers.

That's failure every way you cut it.

  kartool

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 452

9/08/12 4:13:22 PM#474
Originally posted by Bior337
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by Bior337
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue...

Yah, when you need tens of millons just to stay afloat and youre making only millions its called a failure.

So yah, ill give you a hint:

get a clue

You don't really understand the concept of return on investment, do you? It often takes time for large projects to break even and start making money. If you think TOR isn't going to end up making money when it goes f2p you're living in a fantasy world. 

Considering they've already had to fire half the staff and merge the servers, I don't think Bioware or EA expects to be making their money back any time soon, or they wouldn't be firing devs left and right.

That, my friends, is a complete failure. You don't go into a new product PLANNING to get rid of your staff. Especially not on a product you hope to grow over the years.

 

And yes, we DO have financial records stated by EA, and other inside sources. It would have taken them about 750k subs for a year and a half to make up just the money they spent on development, not even marketing (which was probably almost as large given all the coverage and CGI trailers). Currently, they don't even have 1/4 that many subs, and its been half a year.

 

It is the most expensive MMO ever made, and it is without a doubt, an unmitigated failure.

So we have one source saying 500k subs, you saying 750k and someone else in this thread stating 1 million subs needed to break even. Inside sources? Like pissed off ex-employees who always stay impartial, huh. A pissed off employee who has had his story confirmed by other people within the company, and who everything he said turned out to be true.

Is the game shut down? No. Therefore it's not a failure. Vanguard is still around, I guess that wasn't a failure either? Or Horizons? It didn't meet expecations and until they shut it down and show the game never made any profit, it's not a failure. People call AoC a failure yet it's healthy and has another expac coming soon. AoC bankrupted two companies and made a ton of people lose their jobs. They limp along with less subs than MMOs from the 90s have.


 

There's a good reason its called Tortanic. The biggest MMO ever built, more money lavished on it than any title to date. Two of the biggest development studios in the genre, the biggest science fiction IP in the world.

And a few months after launch and it is completely dead in the water, half the staff fired, most of the servers closed, and its being forced to go free just to find an audience.

I don't know how you manage to delude yourself into thinking that it didn't FAIL in what it tried to do.

I am talking about SWTOR as a business, not as a game. As a game it failed to meet expecatations, it failed to do what the developers wanted it to do. As a business, they are simply changing the business model to better serve or attract customers in order to make money. If the game had no chance of being profitable they would cut their losses and shut it down. If the game can still be profitable or is profitable, then it's not a failure. Job losses have nothing to do with it. If they did then GM would be failure, Microsoft would be a failure, etc. because they've all gone through periods where they've made massive cutbacks to their work force.

We'll see what happens when it goes f2p, that's about all there is to this entire argument. Switching business models doesn't mean something has failed.

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1184

9/08/12 4:19:26 PM#475
Originally posted by kartool

So we have one source saying 500k subs, you saying 750k and someone else in this thread stating 1 million subs needed to break even. Inside sources? Like pissed off ex-employees who always stay impartial, huh.

Is the game shut down? No. Therefore it's not a failure. It didn't meet expecations and until they shut it down and show the game never made any profit, it's not a failure. People call AoC a failure yet it's healthy and has another expac coming soon.

This thread seems to not understand what actually constitutes failing in a business endeavour. If you run a business, you have to be able to change your business model according to market demand. Sticking to your plan no matter what is how you guarantee failure. Being able to change you business model and the direction of your product to better serve your customers or potential customers is how you succeed. This is what EA/Bioware are attempting to do.

 

 

There are two numbers kartool. Both provided by EA. You can go and read the presentations and so forth here: http://investor.ea.com/

The 500k number is to cover the day to day costs; the wages of the staff currently employed and whatever other stuff EA include. The 1M number is to cover the running costs - with the first 500k subs - and the start to pay back the development costs. That is why I gave you an analogy of borrwing money to buy and then rent out an apartment. Like I say you can get all the numbers yourself on the EA investor page.

So financially it is a major failure. In other ways maybe not.

As for changing business models that will be "interesting". If the numbers provided by Zynga hold true - that they get most of their money from c. 5% of the ir playerbase (it varies a  bit but all the info is on the Zynga investors page) then they are going to need millions of F2P players to get the same amount of revenue.

 

  gervaise1

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/07
Posts: 1184

9/08/12 4:35:13 PM#476
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by mikahr
Originally posted by Darkcrystal

HAHAHAH, you call make million of dollars a failure????  Some people have no clue...

Yah, when you need tens of millons just to stay afloat and youre making only millions its called a failure.

So yah, ill give you a hint:

get a clue

You don't really understand the concept of return on investment, do you? It often takes time for large projects to break even and start making money. If you think TOR isn't going to end up making money when it goes f2p you're living in a fantasy world. 

There are games designed, launched and run as F2P from day 1 are making a profit. currently however there is no company released data that point to a sub-based game making a profit. The announced closure of CoH indicates that a conversion may not be successful; and they were running the game with just 80 staff.

Sure large projects can indeed take time to recover their investment but - at some point in the future - EA will have to decide whether they want to renew the IP. 

  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

9/08/12 4:36:56 PM#477
Originally posted by Bior337

All sources show that subs have TANKED. Of course EA hasn't reported this, but virtually every other news source has. Their last numbers released (about 4 months ago) included all the accounts they gave free time to.

So no, they don't. And I'm pretty sure when you lose most of your staff and most of your servers, on the most expensive MMO ever made, with the STAR WARS IP...you're a failure.

It worst its third, because there are only 2 other games over 200k subs (EvE, WoW).

Is it a failure?  sure.  biggest failure?  not even close.

 

The real question is....what kind of issues cause someone to care so much about it at this stage?

  IrishChai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/31/11
Posts: 508

9/08/12 4:39:36 PM#478

 

I still wish Tabula Rasa had gone F2P, but considering NCSoft shutdown CoH so relatively quick after it went F2P, I don't think it would've lasted much longer anyway. Their Korean imports seem to hold up when looking at Lineage, but not so sure Aion will survive another year.

 

SWTOR can't be the biggest failure with me until it's shutdown completely. It could still make a miraculous recovery if they listen to the playerbase and get a bunch of new or returning fans when F2P goes live. I didn't have any problem with the game outside of the fact that I don't need to pay a subscription anymore for decent MMOs. I don't want to feel pushed to play something just to get my money's worth each month. I've been enjoying games like GW2, Aion, Diablo 3, and looking forward to Torchlight 2 with no subscription fee so it's one of those things with me that once I have it, I won't go back. Too many quality games out now to pay $10-$15/month even if that is just pennies a day. It still adds up.

 

edit: Just to clarify, I'm definitely going back to SWTOR once it's F2P. I was having fun with it and I'm looking forward to playing out the story on a couple characters. So that's a part of why I don't see it as a failure at all. It kept me entertained, and is a pretty good game in my book. I already bought it though. I'm not paying more for it, simple as that. It's only a failure in the sense that it failed to earn a subscription out of people, but maybe it can recover going F2P.

  Bior337

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/08/12
Posts: 25

9/08/12 5:37:28 PM#479
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Bior337

All sources show that subs have TANKED. Of course EA hasn't reported this, but virtually every other news source has. Their last numbers released (about 4 months ago) included all the accounts they gave free time to.

So no, they don't. And I'm pretty sure when you lose most of your staff and most of your servers, on the most expensive MMO ever made, with the STAR WARS IP...you're a failure.

It worst its third, because there are only 2 other games over 200k subs (EvE, WoW).

Is it a failure?  sure.  biggest failure?  not even close.

 

Haha what would be a bigger failure then? No other game has had a budget this large, or did this poorly right after launch.

Starting with 2 million subs and going down to under 500k within months? The rention rate is AWFUL.

And you're ignoring the entire eastern market when you count subs. If we ignore the eastern market than WoW only has about 1.2 million subs.

  teakbois

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/06
Posts: 2190

9/08/12 5:45:28 PM#480
Originally posted by Bior337
Originally posted by teakbois
Originally posted by Bior337

All sources show that subs have TANKED. Of course EA hasn't reported this, but virtually every other news source has. Their last numbers released (about 4 months ago) included all the accounts they gave free time to.

So no, they don't. And I'm pretty sure when you lose most of your staff and most of your servers, on the most expensive MMO ever made, with the STAR WARS IP...you're a failure.

It worst its third, because there are only 2 other games over 200k subs (EvE, WoW).

Is it a failure?  sure.  biggest failure?  not even close.

 

Haha what would be a bigger failure then? No other game has had a budget this large, or did this poorly right after launch.

Starting with 2 million subs and going down to under 500k within months? The rention rate is AWFUL.

And you're ignoring the entire eastern market when you count subs. If we ignore the eastern market than WoW only has about 1.2 million subs.

Trying to debate with someone who doesnt understand why, when discussing games like SWTOR, its important to talk about the western region only (and also thinks WoW only has 1.2 million western subs) is pretty pointless.  But like if it helps you sleep at night then believe whatever you want...

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