Originally posted by everland

This makes me laugh hard when I look back. You are so wrong. Every mmorpg you see now is the product of player hints throughout the years. PLAYERS made it so bad, developers only follow demand to gain profit.

I agree that a part of these gamers feedback is responsible for the current state of MMOs (instant gratification, etc). But for the life of me, never did I meet a single time where the global feedback/wishlist trend was "Please make a WoW clone".

There might have been a few people like that, but just parse this very forum, or video game blogs, or communities : it's crystal clear for years that nobody wants a WoW clone anymore, with the same mechanics that we've been fed with a funnel since 2007. And what do we got since 2007 ... ?

Originally posted by k-damage

Except the MMO market is not like a typical Arcade market : MMO gamers don't want to play several mmos at one time.  They want a "homeworld". There can be only one, a MMO to rule them all. That's how it is, and that's why every new mmo tries to kill WoW, instead of just doing its own business.

 1) Most data indicates that  30%-50% of MMO gamers play 2 or more MMOs at once. If we use Nick Yee's data from 2006, 1 out of ever 4 MMO gamers subscribes to 2 or more MMOs.

2) With the exception of Rift, no MMO has ever set out to challenge WOW, nor has any other dev had that as a goal.

 

Unfortunately, it is the case, imo. Most of us are bored with WoW clones since 2007, but we still want to play a MMO. So we  just .... try stuff. Even if all the signals are here to tell a new mmo is gonna be boring after one month, we simply try it out of despair for a fresh experience.

 Your projecting your views onto the rest of us, although I'm sure you can add enough criteria to the nebulous 'WOW clones' group to eventually prove your stance true.

 

It's quite complex to manage litterally 100 posts per minute, I agree (swtor forums before launch were really close to 100/min). But there can also be an allowed error margin for feedback gathering, as nothing is perfect. Plus, generally, the great ideas are the ones receiving the most attention in forums, so there's a natural filtering. There are also tools, as "likes", which can really easen the CM work.

Forums are currently one of the many areas devs gather information and feedback from. Forums, however, are rarely indicative of the interests of the greater group. I said 'rarely' not 'never'.

I also liked the idea of theAsna :

Originally posted by theAsna

Maybe some aspects of direct democracy might help improve the situation.

E.g. have elected player representatives which communicate with the developer.

Several developers do that and, IMO, they are rather effective. DAoC was one of the pioneers with the Team Leads, and others have followed suit. Two of my favorites are:

Beyond Protocol's Galactic Senate

EVEOnline's Council of Stellar Management

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 1) Most data indicates that  30%-50% of MMO gamers play 2 or more MMOs at once. If we use Nick Yee's data from 2006, 1 out of ever 4 MMO gamers subscribes to 2 or more MMOs. 

1 out of 4 is quite not a majority :)

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 Your projecting your views onto the rest of us, although I'm sure you can add enough criteria to the nebulous 'WOW clones' group to eventually prove your stance true.

Sorry yeah I did put it quite bluntly. I wrote "we" as a shortcut for "subscription trends and forum feedback", overall. 

Local data here:

 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/357385/POLL-How-many-MMORPGs-are-you-usually-ACTIVELY-playing-at-the-same-time.html

Only 30% play more than one.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

2) With the exception of Rift, no MMO has ever set out to challenge WOW, nor has any other dev had that as a goal.

Even though Rift was the most obvious about it, I don't think you are right here.

First comes the obvious rush of changes EQ2 got in his first 6 months to be more "like WoW". SoE started to patch in "WoW like" content like mad to try to catch up with WoW.

Second comes the LOTRO case. There once was a game named MEO (Middle-Earth Online), with a lot of unique and innovative features. WoW gets released - the project gets dumped in March 2005, keeping the already done artwork though, and renamed to LotRO:SoA (Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar), with a lot of features simply copied from WoW.

The I can also list Warhammer, Age of Conan, SW:TOR, which all are carbon copies of the WoW model with minor variations.

Even if it's not openly admitted by them, the intentions of some developers are quite obvious ;-)

Originally posted by Einherjar_LC

We won't see good MMO's again until gamers start making games...again.

 

UO, AC, EQ were made by people with a love of the genre, and a passion for gaming, not for profit considerations.  Thats what made them so great IMO.  The people making the worlds wanted what other gamers wanted...a virtual world to live in, explore, and be a part of.  When the suits got involved, it was game over(no pun intended).

 

So until the genre comes full circle and gets back to it's roots, this trend of crappy MMO's and clones will sadly continue.

lol, thx 4 the laugh. gamers making games. actually it's DEVS who make games, and GAMERS who play em. iu dont wanna play a game made by a gamer..... they are way too whiney. just see the initial post in this thread.

The only way to let playerbase split into several MMOs would be to play a strong world identity card. Have original, distinct ambiences (Cyberpunk, Medieval, Nowadays, etc).

But they all stick to Heroic Fantasy ...

(or don't deliver at other critical game features)

Originally posted by Thane

lol, thx 4 the laugh. gamers making games. actually it's DEVS who make games, and GAMERS who play em. iu dont wanna play a game made by a gamer..... they are way too whiney. just see the initial post in this thread. 

I can't help but to tell you that I'm also a game dev. This is not a whine, this is a debate, a discussion, from the gamer part of me, on a semi-closed community. It's not a Forbes article, it's just an attempt at sharing different opinions on a given subject that we might all feel  concerned with. Don't take it too seriously either, relax.

Originally posted by k-damage

After the dramatic sinking of SWTOR, one thing is growing bigger in me. There's just a blatant pattern of failure in MMOs, and absolutely no studio (except ANet) seems to have the will to wake up. It's like they just want to fail.

 

 

I'm fed up with this crap. Not because I'm sour, but because it's millions and millions of wasted dollars, thousands of wasted talents, short term layoffs, and moreover millions of gamers hopes hammered to the ground.

We, gamers, constantly express ourselves about what we like and what we don't like, what will work and what will not. What is saturated and what is not. The internet is flooded with gamers opinions, suggestions, analysis, and dreams of a better MMO. Some of them even being redacted better than your best corporate spec document.

 

 

It's simple : being a successful MMO designer nowadays is as easy as parsing 3 - 4 mmo news forums, juicing the most intelligent suggestions, and make a game out of it. There are so many mature, intelligent analysis over forums nowadays that there's just no need to spend a few neurons in finding a new & original gamedesign. People are simply giving great ideas for free.

 

Look at the WoW forums : beyond the usual trolling crap and the "how do I play my class ?", there's at least 10 intelligent suggestions per day, in one post of one thread, spread over all the different EU/US forums. But still ... Mists of Pandaria persists in bringing something WoW veterans clearly didn't want. There's actually a 200 pages thread of people arguing with Blizzard that we want progression, we don't want easy cheesy content. ( http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4879017939?page=1 ) But guess what ? The Blizzard rep has been arguing for 200 pages that "yes, consensus is about making things easy and super accessable, we are right and you are wrong".

 

Look at mmorpg.com : it's not so rare to find a very well constructed thread, with intelligent people having a perfectly mature discussion about what would or would not work for a precise feature in MMOs (housing, combat, etc).

 

Look even at video game blogs : kotaku.com for example, is regularly posting user points of view as full articles (very much on topic, a rant from me about WOW clones for example, posted not long after swtor release : http://kotaku.com/5884948/stop-copying-world-of-warcraft-start-making-a-better-mmo ). Even their columnists are often posting rants about the state of videogame market ! Even journalists ! We're all just FED UP of mainstreaming.

+ mmo-champion.com ... + beta feedbacks ... + .... etc, etc ...

 

 

So I ask a question to mmo studios : What is so frickin hard in reading gamers opinions ? Even your own employees tell you to listen to suggestions ( http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-BioWare-RVW1763761.htm ).

edit : even successful gamedesigners are giving you the secret recipe ! ( http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php ). What more do you want at this point ... ?

It's been YEARS since there's a general consensus about what gamers want or do not want anymore. The global cry is so blatant and obvious that you just have to open your frickin browser, read a bunch of frickin threads, and that's it, you have the second coming of Christ for most gamers.

 

 

So why are we still seeing so many subscription sustainment failures like SWTOR ?? TSW ?? TERA ?? AOC ?? WAR ??? Millions after Millions of dollars gone to trash ?? Why do these studios want to fail so hard, seriously ? How can they put so many efforts in baiting for gamers interest with trailers, dev blogs, etc, only to reveal at launch that the other 70% of the game is subpar ?

When will these studios seriously start playing those games they want to make ?

 

(I'm drunk, but it comes from the heart baby)

When it comes to new games I 100% agree with you. When it comes to WoW not so much. WoW can lose 50% of its sub base and still be the most popular themepark MMO of all time. While people come up with good ideas and a select few want progression the fact is the MAJORITY wants thier hands held and fed epics for free.

Originally posted by k-damage

After the dramatic sinking of SWTOR, one thing is growing bigger in me. There's just a blatant pattern of failure in MMOs, and absolutely no studio (except ANet) seems to have the will to wake up. It's like they just want to fail.

 

 

I'm fed up with this crap. Not because I'm sour, but because it's millions and millions of wasted dollars, thousands of wasted talents, short term layoffs, and moreover millions of gamers hopes hammered to the ground.

We, gamers, constantly express ourselves about what we like and what we don't like, what will work and what will not. What is saturated and what is not. The internet is flooded with gamers opinions, suggestions, analysis, and dreams of a better MMO. Some of them even being redacted better than your best corporate spec document.

 

 

It's simple : being a successful MMO designer nowadays is as easy as parsing 3 - 4 mmo news forums, juicing the most intelligent suggestions, and make a game out of it. There are so many mature, intelligent analysis over forums nowadays that there's just no need to spend a few neurons in finding a new & original gamedesign. People are simply giving great ideas for free.

 

Look at the WoW forums : beyond the usual trolling crap and the "how do I play my class ?", there's at least 10 intelligent suggestions per day, in one post of one thread, spread over all the different EU/US forums. But still ... Mists of Pandaria persists in bringing something WoW veterans clearly didn't want. There's actually a 200 pages thread of people arguing with Blizzard that we want progression, we don't want easy cheesy content. ( http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4879017939?page=1 ) But guess what ? The Blizzard rep has been arguing for 200 pages that "yes, consensus is about making things easy and super accessable, we are right and you are wrong".

 

Look at mmorpg.com : it's not so rare to find a very well constructed thread, with intelligent people having a perfectly mature discussion about what would or would not work for a precise feature in MMOs (housing, combat, etc).

 

Look even at video game blogs : kotaku.com for example, is regularly posting user points of view as full articles (very much on topic, a rant from me about WOW clones for example, posted not long after swtor release : http://kotaku.com/5884948/stop-copying-world-of-warcraft-start-making-a-better-mmo ). Even their columnists are often posting rants about the state of videogame market ! Even journalists ! We're all just FED UP of mainstreaming.

+ mmo-champion.com ... + beta feedbacks ... + .... etc, etc ...

 

 

So I ask a question to mmo studios : What is so frickin hard in reading gamers opinions ? Even your own employees tell you to listen to suggestions ( http://www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Employee-Review-BioWare-RVW1763761.htm ).

edit : even successful gamedesigners are giving you the secret recipe ! ( http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php ). What more do you want at this point ... ?

It's been YEARS since there's a general consensus about what gamers want or do not want anymore. The global cry is so blatant and obvious that you just have to open your frickin browser, read a bunch of frickin threads, and that's it, you have the second coming of Christ for most gamers.

 

 

So why are we still seeing so many subscription sustainment failures like SWTOR ?? TSW ?? TERA ?? AOC ?? WAR ??? Millions after Millions of dollars gone to trash ?? Why do these studios want to fail so hard, seriously ? How can they put so many efforts in baiting for gamers interest with trailers, dev blogs, etc, only to reveal at launch that the other 70% of the game is subpar ?

When will these studios seriously start playing those games they want to make ?

 

(I'm drunk, but it comes from the heart baby)

The best thing we can do is talk with our wallets. If companies start seeing major MMOs fail, then hopefully they will realize something is wrong. I cannot understand how some MMOs get shipped when half the features would be chopped if someone asked themselves, "Is this fun?". Personally, I think it's good to see SWTOR fail. Why? Because it wasn't meant to be an MMO. If anything, it should have been like Mass Effect 3, single player RPG with Co-op. Hopefully after this, developers will stop trying to cram every IP into the MMO space and less dollars will get wasted. Take for instance, the would be WH40k MMO. They realized they shouldn't do it. Hopefully upcoming MMOs will have the common sense to read the community's input and release with no monthly fee so they can attract subscribers. 

---

Originally posted by Destai

The best thing we can do is talk with our wallets.

---

People do already and that is why SWTOR was made, 2nd largest MMO on western market.

You might not like the current state of things but that's won't make any difference, the wallets has already spoken.

Originally posted by Gdemami

 

---

Originally posted by Destai

The best thing we can do is talk with our wallets.

---

 

People do already and that is why SWTOR was made, 2nd largest MMO on western market.

 

You might not like the current state of things but that's won't make any difference, the wallets has already spoken.

That's the problem yes. And that's the indirect problem of mmo crowd starving for some groundbreaking new product.

I'm not saying this is everyone's case, but considering the unique features of MMOs ... honestly I may be ranting all I can, but if there's no good MMO for years, I still need to play that genre, because it's the only one that I like (building a char, socializing, challenges, etc). So fatally, I'll be unable to vote with my wallet :/

Yes I'm weak.

Have you read the 'interweb?'  Go on every forum you want.  It doesn't matter to me, and say to like any game and why.  Then post the result here (Here just becausee this is as good a place a any).  If you get a simple concencus, I wil take back everything I'm thinking about this.  Given any idea.  PvP, Story, PvE, Crafting, Instancing, Classes, Powers, Graphic requirements, Art style, single/multiple server, death penalty, et al, you will get no concencus. 

There are 2 tactics that I can see that companies can use.  Look at past MMO success and copy (The smart money) or try and look for some loyal opposition who are vocal and try to cater to them (More risky, but has the possibility of being a sleeper hit).  Obviously there are a lot more strategies, but these are the two I believe the most likely to succeed.  Not guarantees.

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Local data here:

 http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/357385/POLL-How-many-MMORPGs-are-you-usually-ACTIVELY-playing-at-the-same-time.html

Only 30% play more than one.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

2) With the exception of Rift, no MMO has ever set out to challenge WOW, nor has any other dev had that as a goal.

Even though Rift was the most obvious about it, I don't think you are right here.

First comes the obvious rush of changes EQ2 got in his first 6 months to be more "like WoW". SoE started to patch in "WoW like" content like mad to try to catch up with WoW.

Second comes the LOTRO case. There once was a game named MEO (Middle-Earth Online), with a lot of unique and innovative features. WoW gets released - the project gets dumped in March 2005, keeping the already done artwork though, and renamed to LotRO:SoA (Lord of the Rings Online: Shadows of Angmar), with a lot of features simply copied from WoW.

The I can also list Warhammer, Age of Conan, SW:TOR, which all are carbon copies of the WoW model with minor variations.

Even if it's not openly admitted by them, the intentions of some developers are quite obvious ;-)

Emulating the areas where WOW was successful, I completely agree, is what many MMO developers have attempted to do. It's good business sense.

But to be a 'WOW killer' is highly unrealistic and I'd be very surprised if there was a department or executive board that ever set that as a goal or directive for their MMO.

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by Loktofeit

 1) Most data indicates that  30%-50% of MMO gamers play 2 or more MMOs at once. If we use Nick Yee's data from 2006, 1 out of ever 4 MMO gamers subscribes to 2 or more MMOs. 

1 out of 4 is quite not a majority :)

I know. Your statement, however was

"MMO gamers don't want to play several mmos at one time."

sans qualifier or condition. Yours was an absolute statement, which is what i was refuting.

---

Originally posted by k-damage

That's the problem yes.

---

No, it is not a problem. It is perfectly fine.

I think your inapt habit of speaking in behalf of others(apart from suggested lack of spending control) is the only problem here.

Originally posted by Loktofeit

But to be a 'WOW killer' is highly unrealistic and I'd be very surprised if there was a department or executive board that ever set that as a goal or directive for their MMO.

Directly from the mouth of one of ANet co-founders :

"How many designers have been asked to make a "GTA killer", or a "Guitar Hero killer", or a "WoW killer"? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but...""

( http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php ) 

Originally posted by Gdemami

---

Originally posted by k-damage

 

That's the problem yes.

---

No, it is not a problem. It is perfectly fine.

I think your inapt habit of speaking in behalf of others(apart from suggested lack of spending control) is the only problem here.

The problem for you. And you're not better by putting such an absolute judgement either.

Also, I redirected to 4 links in the OP, 2 of them being 90% of opinions similar to mine over thousands of reactions, 1 of them being an insider look from one of the biggest game studios, and finally, last of them being the word from the man behind the most hyped game of the moment. But sure, highlighting the complaint of thousands of people is "speaking in behalf of others", yup.

Now just tell me the global MMO gamer trend is "happy with current state of the market". Come on, just say it, right in the forums where there is so much scepticism, so much negativity when a new MMO comes out (GW2 being last example), so we have a good laugh.

edit : Can you possibly manage to create such a thread right in the middle of these ones ? That would be a great effect I'm sure.

"Im worried about the mmorpg genre."

"Consumers have no right to expect to get a quality product for their money?"

"This genre is dead"

" So is it just, LFG need control/support now instead of tank/heals?"

" What makes the hype different this time around?"

etc, etc.

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by Loktofeit

But to be a 'WOW killer' is highly unrealistic and I'd be very surprised if there was a department or executive board that ever set that as a goal or directive for their MMO.

Directly from the mouth of one of ANet co-founders :

"How many designers have been asked to make a "GTA killer", or a "Guitar Hero killer", or a "WoW killer"? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but...""

( http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php ) 

Emulating the areas where WOW was successful, I completely agree, is what many MMO developers have attempted to do. It's good business sense.

The quote you are reading is from someone selling the crowd on the awesomeness of their approach with GW2. There is a big difference between trying to be the WOW killer and emulating what WOW did right to make a successful game. He took two unrelated things and put them together so that the easily confused says "Yeah, he's right! Those devs are dumb!"

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by Loktofeit

But to be a 'WOW killer' is highly unrealistic and I'd be very surprised if there was a department or executive board that ever set that as a goal or directive for their MMO.

Directly from the mouth of one of ANet co-founders :

"How many designers have been asked to make a "GTA killer", or a "Guitar Hero killer", or a "WoW killer"? I personally have heard numerous designers and producers working on unreleased MMO projects describe their game in these terms: "It's like WoW, but...""

( http://www.guildwars.com/events/tradeshows/gc2007/gcspeech.php ) 

Emulating the areas where WOW was successful, I completely agree, is what many MMO developers have attempted to do. It's good business sense.

The quote you are reading is from someone selling the crowd on the awesomeness of their approach with GW2. There is a big difference between trying to be the WOW killer and emulating what WOW did right to make a successful game. He took two unrelated things and put them together so that the easily confused says "Yeah, he's right! Those devs are dumb!"

Yes, of course we have to take it with a grain of salt ;) But we get the idea, I guess he wouldn't have used such broad terms in such a wide conference if there wasn't a part of truth.

p.s offtopic : lol awesome sig

Originally posted by k-damage

Originally posted by Gdemami

---

Originally posted by k-damage

 

That's the problem yes.

---

No, it is not a problem. It is perfectly fine.

I think your inapt habit of speaking in behalf of others(apart from suggested lack of spending control) is the only problem here.

The problem for you. And you're not better by putting such an absolute judgement either.

Now just tell me the global MMO gamer trend is "happy with current state of the market". Come on, just say it, right in the forums where there is so much negativity when a new MMO comes out (GW2 being last example), so we have a good laugh.

You gave me an idea for a post, k-damage.

---

Originally posted by k-damage

The problem for you. And it's not a way to talk to people like that.

Now just tell me the global MMO gamer trend is "happy with current state of the market".

---

No, it is a problem for you, you state absolute or generalized truths based on subjective perception. Such acting is pushing you away from what what is otherwise perceived as reality, severely hindering your ability to communicate with others because not every is sharing your perception.

"MMO gamer trend" - I do not know why I should be talking about such thing, whatever it is supposed to be.

Edit:

What absolute truth of mine you have on mind? I am not aware of any I have made...and I try my best to avoid it.