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News & Features Discussion  » Guild Wars 2: I Have Questions!

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  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/31/12 9:40:32 PM#41
Originally posted by jbombard
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by jbombard

I am sure people who enjoy PvP activities will be having fun for a very long time.  

PvE on the other hand requires progression for longevity.  Progression does not necessarily need to be a gear chase, however progression by it's nature builds attachment to the character and encourages one to continue to play so they can continue to make progress.  When there is no more progress to be made and no character attachment, you can play just for fun but then again if you are just playing for fun you could play any other game as well.  Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying how it is. 

Hypothetically, can "progression" be defined as the activities in which you engage over a period of months in order to obtain a legendary weapon, which does not convey a stat advantage but looks cool as hell?

This is only a partial list of the things you can invest time in in order to "progress":

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/xcjrw/everything_you_need_to_know_about_the_legendary/

I suppose it's different for each person, but personally I simply consider that another vanity item.  By character progression I mean the character actually becoming more powerful in the PvE setting.  Whether through some system of additional advancement, or gear etc...  Seeing the character advance from the whelp to the hero and beyond.

 

figured this may help a bit

 

Concerns About the Content's Lifespan

In terms of the content's lifespan, players are worried that the perceived void left by a lack of raids will not be adequately filled, causing players to be entertained for a shorter amount of time than they would have been if raids were present. Whether this particular concern is valid or not ultimately depends on what motivates you to play.

Most MMOs make use of the following infinite loop, which could be considered the "engine" of the endgame: Gear increases your character's power which allows you to defeat more powerful enemies which drop gear which increases your character's power which allows you to defeat more powerful enemies… and so on. It is reasonable to assume that for most players, one part of the loop serves the motivating aspect, whereas the other serves as the means to it.

This infinite loop does not exist in Guild Wars 2, and if the motivating aspect for you is the constant increase in your character's power then you will be disappointed. I would however ask you to question why it's important; after all, the increase in power doesn't significantly impact your experience as newly added encounters are designed to be a match for you, no matter how large the numbers on your character sheet might be. In fact, if character power is kept constant, it makes it easier for developers to create content with a finely-tuned level of difficulty.

On the other hand, if it's the facing of the encounters which serves as the motivator for you, then you likely have nothing to be worried about. In Guild Wars 2, new content expands rather than extends the game. Thanks to the side-kicking system, content never becomes obsolete; when you reach the level cap your options are not limited to content specifically made for the endgame, you can still play any of the dynamic events or attemptany of the dungeons you may have initially missed. Furthermore, dynamic events provide constant variation across the entire game world. A zone might be completely different the next time you visit it due to different events being active, events being at different stages, or events having a different number of players participating in them.

Now, while your character may not endlessly increase in power, that isn't to say that the content offers no in-game rewards whatsoever once you reach the level cap.

Firstly, there are rewards which expand your abilities. These include weapons, which determine five of the skills you have access to at any given moment, traits, which alter your skills or attributes in some way (these are being reworked as I write this, so we don't know exactly how they will be acquired), and slot skills (including elite skills), which fill your remaining five skill slots (acquired by earning skill points, at least at the time of writing). All of these things combined provide a significant amount of depth in terms of character builds which is great news for those who enjoy theorycrafting and experimentation.

Secondly, there are rewards which provide ways of customising the appearance of your character. For example, each dungeon has its own unique armour set, and there also exist rare dyes which can be used to change the colour of specific parts of your armour. It's not unreasonable to assume that Guild Wars 2 will also feature other kinds of collectibles and treasure to give people more of a reason to explore the world and/or trade with other players; the original Guild Wars had mini-pets for example.

Thirdly, there are rewards which provide a sense of achievement through explicitly tracking your progress and recording your character's history. Achievements, titles and statistics are now a common feature of MMOs, and these are all present in Guild Wars 2.

As well as the content described above and its rewards, there is also the crafting system, the two-way auction house, and mini-games. There isn't a great deal of information on these features, but suffice it to say they will provide compelling additions to the core gameplay.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Derpybird

Novice Member

Joined: 4/02/12
Posts: 1006

7/31/12 9:46:01 PM#42
Originally posted by jbombard
Originally posted by Derpybird
Originally posted by jbombard

I am sure people who enjoy PvP activities will be having fun for a very long time.  

PvE on the other hand requires progression for longevity.  Progression does not necessarily need to be a gear chase, however progression by it's nature builds attachment to the character and encourages one to continue to play so they can continue to make progress.  When there is no more progress to be made and no character attachment, you can play just for fun but then again if you are just playing for fun you could play any other game as well.  Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying how it is. 

Hypothetically, can "progression" be defined as the activities in which you engage over a period of months in order to obtain a legendary weapon, which does not convey a stat advantage but looks cool as hell?

This is only a partial list of the things you can invest time in in order to "progress":

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/xcjrw/everything_you_need_to_know_about_the_legendary/

I suppose it's different for each person, but personally I simply consider that another vanity item.  By character progression I mean the character actually becoming more powerful in the PvE setting.  Whether through some system of additional advancement, or gear etc...  Seeing the character advance from the whelp to the hero and beyond.

 

I used to have the same definition as you, probably for 6 years or more.

But I realized that getting more powerful gear was only an artificial gate to doing harder content in the game. By removing these gates, then the only thing standing between you and the content was skill, class mastery and/or teamwork, which seems more appealing, at least to me.

So if they remove artificial barriers, which are designed essentially to keep you "grinding" and therefore paying a subscription fee, the cosmetic items make sense in terms of reflecting your individual and/or guild achievements.

At least that's how I look at it.

"Loading screens" are not "instances".
Your personal efforts to troll any game will not, in fact, impact the success or failure of said game.

  heartless

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/04
Posts: 5057

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere. -Carl Sagan

7/31/12 9:51:40 PM#43
Originally posted by jbombard

I am not going to pretend to speak for everyone, but my take on cosmetic progression is that it isn't progression at all.  I have played plenty of MMORPGs with appearance customization.  Personally when I get to the point where I am happy with the way I look, I am done.  I am not going to go farm a different pair of vanity shoulders just to have them and not wear them.  While there is an initial time investment, there is not a continuous one and thus no progression, cosmetic or otherwise.  Actual character power is however different, there is no real point in time where I go, "meh I'm strong enough no need to get stronger".  There is continous striving to grow in strength and that strength and time investment builds character attachment.  That all together drives my desire to log on and play more.

Not every game is designed for every player and that's OK. There are plenty MMOs out there that offer continued character progression through gear strength but Guild Wars games do not really offer that feature.

There are other ways to progress through the game but if you must have gear level progression in order to feel rewarded, this game is simply not for you.

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 468

7/31/12 9:58:45 PM#44

Gonna stop quoting, it's getting a bit long.

 

@Aerowyn, I'm not trying to knock the game.  I am looking forward to it immensely.  I will play it enjoy it, and suck up every bit of new content they put out.  However I do not agree that playing the same content over and over adds longevity.  While "content never becomes obsolete" there is no real need to do something you have already done either.

 

@Derpybird, I understand fully that it is only an illusion, and always have.  But then again it is still an activity that I enjoy.  New content will always be fun the first couple times, however without reason to do it more than that the reason to keep playing disappears as you consume.  If they can put out content faster than the player can consume it then they will have achieved the holy grail of online gaming.

I am by no means saying it is a bad thing.  I simply don't look at GW2 as an MMORPG, I compare it more to a single player RPG with an online multiplayer mode, as there is a finite end, and while I may enjoy playing with friends occasionally that alone is not enough to keep me coming back.  I will purchase new expansion content on occasion and play some more, pretty much exactly how I play single player RPG games.  I love me some single player RPG games so I am not disappointed in the least.  I am just being realistic about the longevity it will have FOR ME.

 
  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/31/12 10:08:36 PM#45
Originally posted by jbombard

Gonna stop quoting, it's getting a bit long.

 

@Aerowyn, I'm not trying to knock the game.  I am looking forward to it immensely.  I will play it enjoy it, and suck up every bit of new content they put out.  However I do not agree that playing the same content over and over adds longevity.  While "content never becomes obsolete" there is no real need to do something you have already done either.

 

@Derpybird, I understand fully that it is only an illusion, and always have.  But then again it is still an activity that I enjoy.  New content will always be fun the first couple times, however without reason to do it more than that the reason to keep playing disappears as you consume.  If they can put out content faster than the player can consume it then they will have achieved the holy grail of online gaming.

I am by no means saying it is a bad thing.  I simply don't look at GW2 as an MMORPG, I compare it more to a single player RPG with an online multiplayer mode, as there is a finite end, and while I may enjoy playing with friends occasionally that alone is not enough to keep me coming back.  I will purchase new expansion content on occasion and play some more, pretty much exactly how I play single player RPG games.  I love me some single player RPG games so I am not disappointed in the least.  I am just being realistic about the longevity it will have FOR ME.

 

but you ARE saying that because almost every MMO released pretty much that offers what you consider character progression in the form of gear and making you stronger requires you to run the same content over and over and over. Only reason I'm making this a point is because gw2 I see more longevity at release than almost any other MMO out right now.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 468

7/31/12 10:53:15 PM#46
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by jbombard

Gonna stop quoting, it's getting a bit long.

 

@Aerowyn, I'm not trying to knock the game.  I am looking forward to it immensely.  I will play it enjoy it, and suck up every bit of new content they put out.  However I do not agree that playing the same content over and over adds longevity.  While "content never becomes obsolete" there is no real need to do something you have already done either.

 

@Derpybird, I understand fully that it is only an illusion, and always have.  But then again it is still an activity that I enjoy.  New content will always be fun the first couple times, however without reason to do it more than that the reason to keep playing disappears as you consume.  If they can put out content faster than the player can consume it then they will have achieved the holy grail of online gaming.

I am by no means saying it is a bad thing.  I simply don't look at GW2 as an MMORPG, I compare it more to a single player RPG with an online multiplayer mode, as there is a finite end, and while I may enjoy playing with friends occasionally that alone is not enough to keep me coming back.  I will purchase new expansion content on occasion and play some more, pretty much exactly how I play single player RPG games.  I love me some single player RPG games so I am not disappointed in the least.  I am just being realistic about the longevity it will have FOR ME.

 

but you ARE saying that because almost every MMO released pretty much that offers what you consider character progression in the form of gear and making you stronger requires you to run the same content over and over and over. Only reason I'm making this a point is because gw2 I see more longevity at release than almost any other MMO out right now.

Yes perhaps I should have been more clear.  I don't see running the same content over and over for no reason as offering longevity.  Running the same content over and over to further strengthen your character does offer a bit more longevity, but even that has limits.  There is a balance between tedious repetition and acceptable levels of repetition for the same of progression.  Personally though I have a low threshhold for repetition simply for the sake of repetition.

  paulytheb

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 200

8/01/12 11:29:45 AM#47

I can see both sides of the debate.

Until the endgame is really seen and played, I think both conclusions are a bit premature.

I am reasonably sure they will have content that appeals to nearly everyone. I heard a rumor about a max level zone that will require multiple groups to tackle multiple events to spawn the giant dragon that will require multiple groups to take down.

This sounds like a raid to me and it sounds fun. I am sure there would be some kind of reward as well. The gear might not make you stronger, but adding effects like lightning or rainbows or whatever to your attack does sound cool and will make ME feel more badass.

So long story short, I can't wait to get started and find out where my adventures lead me.I will save complaining about having nothing to do for when I have nothing to do.

( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)

An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.

  JimmyYO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/13/11
Posts: 541

8/01/12 11:44:21 AM#48

The truth is no one really knows if this game is good. End game is where almost every MMO fails and it's the one aspect of the game people are clueless about. Convenient no one ever gets to test endgame content even in beta. The same smoke and mirrors since the beginning of the industry. They are a company that wants money just like everyone else.

They know once you buy the game they did their job, we could easily end up with the diablo 3 treatment here. Hate to destroy the fanboi's worlds but this game could still turn out bad.

  Badaboom

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2389

8/01/12 11:46:43 AM#49
Originally posted by JimmyYO

The truth is no one really knows if this game is good. End game is where almost every MMO fails and it's the one aspect of the game people are clueless about. Convenient no one ever gets to test endgame content even in beta. The same smoke and mirrors since the beginning of the industry. They are a company that wants money just like everyone else.

They know once you buy the game they did their job, we could easily end up with the diablo 3 treatment here. Hate to destroy the fanboi's worlds but this game could still turn out bad.

I don't think that you destroyed anything. 

 

PS:  This game is "all game", not "end game" focused.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

8/01/12 2:56:59 PM#50
Originally posted by Rockniss
I was afraid gate smashing was going to boring too

Trebuchets make everything better.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Juaks

Novice Member

Joined: 10/09/04
Posts: 275

8/01/12 4:43:09 PM#51
Originally posted by heartless
Originally posted by jbombard
Originally posted by Kethrym
Originally posted by jbombard
Originally posted by Illyssia
Originally posted by jzgamekid

Guild wars 2 was a great game and all but it may nt last that long for several reasons. Such as the PvP gets a bit boring after trying for 2 hrs to break a gate to the enemy castle or having chaos of the same kind being spawn killed in reg pvp. The campaign is fun as hell, but I hope they do something for pvp.

GW2 will be a fun ride for a month or two, but longer-term I think it lacks replay value. I am going to play a couple of characters to 80, but after that I won't play more than casually.

I agree, I am sure it will be worth the box price but no real PvE progression means no reason to keep coming back.


Except for those of us who don't need to chase gear to have fun.    Between WvWvW and Crafting I'll be entertained for a good long while. 

I am sure people who enjoy PvP activities will be having fun for a very long time.  

 

PvE on the other hand requires progression for longevity.  Progression does not necessarily need to be a gear chase, however progression by it's nature builds attachment to the character and encourages one to continue to play so they can continue to make progress.  When there is no more progress to be made and no character attachment, you can play just for fun but then again if you are just playing for fun you could play any other game as well.  Not saying it's a bad thing, just saying how it is. 

The game has progression. It's not gear progression. More like cosmetic progression. Consider the fact that similar to GW1, your character continues to level after reaching max level only instead of levels, your character gets skill points, which in turn can be converted in Bloodstone Shards which is one of the items required to purchase legendary weapons. There are also legendary armor sets from different dungeons.

Just like GW1, GW2 will have stuff to work towards but it's not necessarily going to be better gear.

Some people just dont grasp the concept. People who played GW1 can understand that it is fun to grind cosmetic gear/weapons/sets.

In GW1 you reached max level (20) really quick. And people kept playing for years and not only because its excellent pvp. There was so much stuff to do in PvE. One of those things was getting new gear combos to look badass.

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4766

8/01/12 4:48:20 PM#52
Originally posted by Juaks

Some people just dont grasp the concept. People who played GW1 can understand that it is fun to grind cosmetic gear/weapons/sets.

In GW1 you reached max level (20) really quick. And people kept playing for years and not only because its excellent pvp. There was so much stuff to do in PvE. One of those things was getting new gear combos to look badass.

This ^.

And it will absolutely be a completely foreign concept to people unfamiliar w/ the first game. It's not something you generally see in MMOs.

However, there is no good reason why it won't work. For example, compare Zelda with Final Fantasy. Both 2D RPGs. Both games guide you through the content, but in different ways. In Zelda you play to get more tools, to allow you to handle a wider variety of situations. In Final Fantasy, you are playing to gain more lvls to get more powerful. Both are viable methods of progression, and both are fun. Most MMOs go w/ the Final Fantasy type of verticle progression. GW prefers more of a Zelda approach.

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