My brother played a Mesmer to 35 this last bwe and was probably doing better than myself in pve (playing as a warrior), the only point I would agree on is #3 , the rest I never even saw them being an issue. His illusions tanked like a boss in DEs and the Catacombs and there always seemed to be 3+ of them at any given time.

Originally posted by UserNoName

My brother played a Mesmer to 35 this last bwe and was probably doing better than myself in pve (playing as a warrior), the only point I would agree on is #3 , the rest I never even saw them being an issue. His illusions tanked like a boss in DEs and the Catacombs and there always seemed to be 3+ of them at any given time.

Watching someone play a Mesmer and playing one yourselft is the key here.

OP hits the nail right on the head with some of the problems plauging the mesmer, especially in PvP.  My primary class throughout the beta's was the Mesmer.  I wanted to love it, but in the end the problems with the illusions and such pushed me away.  I really hope A-Net balances this class out a bit, really a unique class that needs some love.

Originally posted by UserNoName

My brother played a Mesmer to 35 this last bwe and was probably doing better than myself in pve (playing as a warrior), the only point I would agree on is #3 , the rest I never even saw them being an issue. His illusions tanked like a boss in DEs and the Catacombs and there always seemed to be 3+ of them at any given time.

Mesmers do better at 1vs1 combat , since BW3 where they made mob focus more on illusions. So generally in 1vs1 PVE , mesmer is rarelly attacked. (unlike warrior)

Problem is that in PVE you are mostly attacked by group of mob. Just when you set up your clones, the first mob goes down. Leaving you fodder for rest of mobs , because all your clone skills are on cooldowns.

This is especially annoying in events where mobs are falling like flies. And mesmer can only stand in frustration looking at his summons poping the moment they are created.

Belive me ... try to play mesmer and you will see.

my only real issue was i felt phantasms shouldn't shatter or share resources with clones.

phantasms are such a great source of damage, and then shattering them all away for less damage than they would do in one volley or a small effect.. felt like a bit of a broken system.

that plus the fact that they could be overwritten by clones made me not really want to use clones much..

this also made the scepter kind of worthless as a weapon as you couldn't use the weapon and rely on phantasms for their effects or damage, simply because the autoattack made clones which would evaporate your phantasms.

i get that maybe they wanted us to choose between shatter fodder or phantasms, but with shatter as the class mechanic and the way the talents were designed there wasn't much choice really.  phantasms were a better source of damage and survivability than shattering in most every way.

for point one, Illusions is the name both clones and phantasms. So Clones are illusions but phantasms are also.

For point two, I think clones should die in one hit. But not from AoE...

I think you should add that clones shouldn't owerwrite phantasms.

There are ways to improve the survivability of illusions, I believe there was a utility skill and you could boost the survivability with trait points.  Did anyone try this?

I did drop the Mesmer as a potential class in beta weekend 2 after enjoying it in beta weekend 1 so it might have been these changes that caused me not to like it.

Originally posted by beleren

for point one, Illusions is the name both clones and phantasms. So Clones are illusions but phantasms are also.

For point two, I think clones should die in one hit. But not from AoE...

I think you should add that clones shouldn't owerwrite phantasms.

This is bit unclear due to skill tooltips sometimes stating illusion , example : Summon an illusion that deals extra damage for each unique condition on the target foe.

But as I now hear , they will fix it for release (i hope)

So my first suggestion is taken care for ;)

Originally posted by Lobotomist

Originally posted by beleren

for point one, Illusions is the name both clones and phantasms. So Clones are illusions but phantasms are also.

For point two, I think clones should die in one hit. But not from AoE...

I think you should add that clones shouldn't owerwrite phantasms.

This is bit unclear due to skill tooltips sometimes stating illusion , example : Summon an illusion that deals extra damage for each unique condition on the target foe.

 

But as I now hear , they will fix it for release (i hope)

 

So my first suggestion is taken care for ;)

 

 

 

Yes, tooltips are very very insufficient. Most of them missing numbers and says like "increases your condition damage" things.

I would suggest that when Illusions die(no matter how they die) they shatter. But they would do less damage than if shattered with a Shatter spell.

Also, all Illusions should persist until death or until out of combat.

Hopefully, ArenaNet does something before launch, because BWE3 Mesmer was not a class.

Its pretty sad that Clones and Phantasms, which is the one of the 2 defining features of the Mesmer class pales in comparison to Spirit Weapons from Guardians.

Wo said the mesmer class was broken?

When i complained about it some ime ago, people said it was me and the class was quite allright.

Anyway, for my taste the Mesmer class has become to much of a one trick pony

Originally posted by Lobotomist

As old Mesmer player , and somebody that planned playing mesmer from day one GW2 announcement (although we only hoped they will bring back the mesmer) I am split between love and hate for the class.

Its completely different from GW1 mesmer (that was awesome) , but it also has some great ideas of its own.

In BW1 Mesmer was kicking ass, in BW2 it was seriously nerfed ... and now in BW3 we had a class that is not here not there ... Its least usefull for PVE , useless for group PVE/Events , bad for WvW and only excells at 1vs1 PVP.

Most of the problems come from semi broken class mechanic of clones and shatters.

Players seriously interested in mesmer know what i am talking about...

So here are few ideas I had to make Mesmer super cool again :)

 

EDITED because some suggestions will be implemented in release.

1.Clones dying in one hit, especially from AOE: Now here is a great change I would make. Cloness are just projections. They do no damage. And you can not kill a projection. AOE should not damage Clones at all. Direct damage should make Clone transparent (in other words, you now know its illusion) but only for short time. After which Clone starts working again. Naturally - number of clones should be capped.

I definitely think that illusions should be able to survive AoE much better.  As it stands now, many players just use AoE all the time, and wouldn't even realize an illusions was there because it insta-dies.  But I don't know about your transparent idea...I think it may be too extreme...it basically means that you get to shatter your clones no matter what.  Given the relative ease with which a mesmer can summon clones, I think this may be too much.

2.Shattering mechanic being broken due to slow moving clones,getting stuck on obstacles..etc:  Clones are projections. They do not walk :D. Clones should fly at straight line toward target and detonate.

100% agree.  This is the main problem wiht mesmers IMO.

3.Clones disappearing when enemy dies, making Mesmer useless in group fights/events (due to enemies dieing quickly) : Simply make cloness persist for said encounter. When end of encounter is reached (you know , same that makes your health regenerate ) clones fade.

 Once again, I see the problem here, but I think your solution may be too extreme.  Combat can sometimes last a very long time in GW2...especially in WvW or DEs.  I know in WvW, sometimes I'm in combat for like 30 minutes at a time.  I think it would be a little imba to have phantasmal mages and the pistol phantasm that just sit in the back for several minutes doing very, very heavy damage.  They would be like a much more effective version of the turret.

Instead, I would recommend just giving illusions a minimum duration.  Like have them always last 5 or 10 seconds regardless of if their target is killed.  This would allow phantasms to deliver their damage, and give you a chance to shatter clones, or have them protect you in DEs where monsters are dying like flies.

4. Phantasms ( that function as mesmer damage skills) shattering with decoy (non/low damage) clones & are being overwritten by clones. :  Simply phantasms should not participate in shatter mechanic , neither in clone cap mechanic. They should have they own cap pool. And be completely independant from clones pool. Simply separate two mechanics.

 I wouldn't mind an option to shatter only clones, but I don't think you need to give phantasms their own cap pool...I think that would be OP.  Even if you only give phantasms a cap of 2...that's 5 illusions you can have at once.

 

Overall decent suggestions, but I think that some of them go a bit too far.  Mesmer is not that UP in my experience.  I was really wrecking with one in WvW, and did fine in PvE as well.  

Originally posted by Lobotomist

As old Mesmer player , and somebody that planned playing mesmer from day one GW2 announcement (although we only hoped they will bring back the mesmer) I am split between love and hate for the class.

Its completely different from GW1 mesmer (that was awesome) , but it also has some great ideas of its own.

In BW1 Mesmer was kicking ass, in BW2 it was seriously nerfed ... and now in BW3 we had a class that is not here not there ... Its least usefull for PVE , useless for group PVE/Events , bad for WvW and only excells at 1vs1 PVP.

Most of the problems come from semi broken class mechanic of clones and shatters.

Players seriously interested in mesmer know what i am talking about...

So here are few ideas I had to make Mesmer super cool again :)

 

EDITED because some suggestions will be implemented in release.

1.Clones dying in one hit, especially from AOE: Now here is a great change I would make. Cloness are just projections. They do no damage. And you can not kill a projection. AOE should not damage Clones at all. Direct damage should make Clone transparent (in other words, you now know its illusion) but only for short time. After which Clone starts working again. Naturally - number of clones should be capped.

No idea where people are getting the idea that clones do no damage. They do, and it isnt insignificant either. Read what your clone actually does for your weapon type. Some help you stack conditions etc, some will actively do damage. Furthermore you can spec for them to do condition damage or strip buffs in the area if they die. Hardly useless even if they are squishy.

2.Shattering mechanic being broken due to slow moving clones,getting stuck on obstacles..etc:  Clones are projections. They do not walk :D. Clones should fly at straight line toward target and detonate.

I haven't had any issues whatsoever with shattering. The clones will even chase people around walls to finish them off. Its unlikely that you will have 3 more clones before your original ones have shattered.

3.Clones disappearing when enemy dies, making Mesmer useless in group fights/events (due to enemies dieing quickly) : Simply make cloness persist for said encounter. When end of encounter is reached (you know , same that makes your health regenerate ) clones fade.

I agree with this. It is annoying for short encounters. Clones / phantasms should swap targets with you once the primary target is dead.

4. Phantasms ( that function as mesmer damage skills) shattering with decoy (non/low damage) clones & are being overwritten by clones. :  Simply phantasms should not participate in shatter mechanic , neither in clone cap mechanic. They should have they own cap pool. And be completely independant from clones pool. Simply separate two mechanics.

I agree with this. It is quite annoying to lose a decent damage phantasm (like the gun phantasm) when you decide to shatter or when you create another clone. It is especially bad when you are using a weapon that creates a lot of clones like the scepter. Phantasms should have a seperate slot, with only 1 allowed to be up at a time.

 

Have commented in red.

If you think that Mesmer is bad in PvE and WvW you are sorely mistaken. The problem with the last beta weekend was that everyone was still trying to use the Greatsword, which had been significantly nerfed (definitely by too much, the damage was far too low for the primary damage build of the Mesmer).

Scepter, pistol and staff were all performing really well, and condition / buff stacking was performing better than ever. Shatter builds were working better than ever as well. It was just trying to use the Greatsword damage builds (which was the only useful build in previous weekends) that made the Mesmer seem weak.

Having played with Mesmers quite extensively through the BWEs and Stress Tests, I must say that in this last BWE the Mesmer felt very tight. The changes in aggro between the Mesmer and its clones made for some interesting strategies, the damage souns about right now, and I have very little complains about the class as a whole.

The only point I would concede, albeit reluctantly, is #4. Even then, knowing when to summon your Phantasm in relation to your Shatter cycles is key in playing well the Mesmer at higher levels.

Mesmer is fun to play as it is, and hardly broken.

Originally posted by Xiaoki

I would suggest that when Illusions die(no matter how they die) they shatter. But they would do less damage than if shattered with a Shatter spell.

You can already spec for this.

Originally posted by StrixMaxima

Having played with Mesmers quite extensively through the BWEs and Stress Tests, I must say that in this last BWE the Mesmer felt very tight. The changes in aggro between the Mesmer and its clones made for some interesting strategies, the damage souns about right now, and I have very little complains about the class as a whole.

The only point I would concede, albeit reluctantly, is #4. Even then, knowing when to summon your Phantasm in relation to your Shatter cycles is key in playing well the Mesmer at higher levels.

Mesmer is fun to play as it is, and hardly broken.

I think Number 4 is only really an issue if you are using a scepter, as you keep summoning clones very rapidly and you dont really get a choice of which ones to keep.

I guess that is just part of choosing that weapon though, as the scepter is primarily used for shatter builds. But it would be nice if you could keep your phantasm seperate from the clones you want to blow up.

Some good points, but I don't think mesmers are broken, or as imbalanced as some people seem to think.

Yes, the clone mechanic vs. mass mobs is kind of frustrating to deal with (and as such I often either ignore it, or focus it on the stronger mobs and let the AoE spill over onto the weaker ones).

Biggest problems I have with the mesmer are:

1) The shatter mechanic not being instant (I really think it should. And I don't think you should be able to LoS an illusion) Clones shouldn't run over to their target. They should either detonate where they stand (and still hit the target), or teleport to their target and detonate that way. Either way it should be instant, and aparent what's happening.

2) Marking a mesmer doesn't mark their clones. When you mark a mesmer (in PvP and PvE), the mark should get placed on all his clones as well. Furthermore, whenever he summons new ones they should spawn w/ a mark over their head. Clones are too easily avoided this way.

3) Phantasms getting treated as clones. I agree, they should be separate from the shatter mechanic.

Other than that I think the class is fine. Give them any more power and I think you'd quickly find that the class would be grossly overpowered.

First very few people agrees what it is esactly that is broken about the Mesmer.

The Mesmer is designed as a 1vs1 class, and nothing serius is wrong with it in such type of encounters.

But against groups of mobs aswell against tough bosses alot of the mesmers skills is really useless. That means that in DE's mesmer is just a weak class that really can't contribute well. And wasn't it for Portal, it would be shunned in WvW.

This comes down to that phantasms needs time to work, and the mesmer needs time to summon enough to shatter. No matter if the mesmer want's to shatter or not, he is really gimped when his illusions is wiped before he can utulise any benefit from them. And thats what happends againsta horde of mobs or players and against the Big AoE attacks from big bosses.

And if a big boss don't use a wipe attack, then the Mesmer is practical AFK as most of his skills is a no go, as it would wipe a damage dealing phantasm in the process (including dodging when traited to make clones). While the last case is not a probelm damagewise, it is borring gamedesign, that the mesmer is left with a skillbar where most of the skills is not going to be used.

In BWE3 ArenaNet improved the damage from shatters when shattering 1 or 2 illusions to make up for some of this. And at least it had make shatter a tool to use a little more often in hard situations.

But what they havent adressed is the fundemental flaw that mesmer have two mechanics that is harder for the mesmer than the opponent to deal with. And that is to balance shatters and phantasm. This is actual esactly the same as the warrior in the old form where andranaline improved damage passive, leading to NO warrior ever used the active effect. ArenaNet called it out as bad design that lead to borring choices, and changed it. Basicly phantasms does the same, they improve a passive damage , that you as a mesmer is not really going to want to change. And that makes shatter a bad mechanic in these situations.

In 1vs1 this is not a big problem because either the mesmer is able to kill the opponent efficently with one setup, or the opponent force him into a situation that makes shatter and clones an option (by killing phantasms).

There is several different ways to adress this

1) separate clones and phantasm when shattered (this is the most suggested solution, it unfortunatly  allows players to keep phantasm as more permanent pets, wich is loosing some of the idea with the class , and it dosn't solve the issue with illusion disappearing to fast, but it allows to keep shatter as a tool while having phantasm in play)

2) seperate targets, (meaning you have the option to only shatter the illusions that is active on your highlighted target) that also gives the mesmer the ability to keep shatter as tool, while actual have working illusion on other targets. This works on  a boss when adds show up. Or when fighting 2 or 3 opponents. This suggestion adds something to mesmer play as he has to put the right phantasms on the right targets while still having the option to shatter. 

3) time duration on phantasms. The real problem is that phantasm stays alive forever, creating an artifical situation where there is no idea in renewing them. Give them duration, and they have to be reneewed , and with that there will always be a reason to put in shatter aswell, and with shatter comes clones. That will work to improve the big boss situations.

4) others i have forgot right now

Personal i don't think that AreaNet needs to adress all the issues here to get a good working class, but most of them is really needed , at least to make me happy about the proffession.

Never played GW1 at all and only played a mesmer during the last BWE to lvl 8 but from what I did play the class might have felt a bit weak at times but certainly not broken, once I had that grasping roots it was almost overpowered. That's  just my opinion of course and LvL 8  is not much to judge by. I stil plan on rolling a mesmer as my main and a ranger as my secondary at release

I found the Starter weapons were what made it suck for me. After i got a staff and a different secondary my abilities were better and more powerful. At first i was like you though and thought wow this class sucks