Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I did not say that GW2 and WoW only used exact copies of features from other games. Both took many core features that existed in other games and adapted them in innovative ways.

what did WOW adapt in an innovative way?

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by korent1991

Being innovative this days doesn't require you to re-invent the wheel or penicilin... What it takes is to man up enough to combine all those features together even tho there wasn't any huge succes (aka. WoW formula) with it before, combine it so it works well with other things in games, make the best of it and hope for success :D

Not even that, it just needs to feel like a different game to play.

Rift kinda failed with that, anyone playing Wow, EQ 2 or LOTRO will feel right home in it and recognize almost everything.

TOR did succeed that way but the problem with it is that most of the content is singleplayer focused so most MMO players tired after a month or 2 (which indeed is as long as I play almost all singleplayer games) so it became very popular a short time only.

You can say a whole lot about GW2 but playing it feels rather different from anything I ever played and I played a lot.

I would like to ask a question related to this.

Do you guys think that it is possible in a longterm to keep using mechanisms that we have already seen and put them in such order that the game feels different? Or do you think that at some point, the developers will need to actually come up with new mechanisms, new elements in mmo gaming.

Which would you prefer? The way WoW and possibly GW does it, use the existing elements and put them in an enjoyable polished package or go in the other direction and try to invent.

Originally posted by Nadia

what did WOW adapt in an innovative way?

Well, they did make solid choices on some EQ-era design to discard.  I guess that counts as innovation, indirectly; at least they looked at the same problems and (sometimes) arrived at different answers.

Other companies could do the same--they just need to be willing to evaluate [what exists] for [what we could do better] instead of [copy the best seller, easy].

Then, of course, another company actually has to succeed in doing it better.  That's that scary rock in the road that everyone keeps tripping on.

Originally posted by coretex666

Do you guys think that it is possible in a longterm to keep using mechanisms that we have already seen and put them in such order that the game feels different? Or do you think that at some point, the developers will need to actually come up with new mechanisms, new elements in mmo gaming.

my opinon, draws upon the D&D publishing market from 1974 through 2012

it may be related to mmos, it may not  -- I think they share parallels tho

in the 80's, the most common game systems on the market were those that used Levels and Classes

there were many other RPGs that used other styles -- no levels, no classes, use points instead of diceroll for characters

but overall, the level and class system was the most common system being published by various independents

(and still remains that way, almost 40 years later)

i think mmo gaming will see new changes but at its heart:  themeparks, classes, factions are here to stay

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Nadia

what did WOW adapt in an innovative way?

Well, they did make solid choices on some EQ-era design to discard.  I guess that counts as innovation, indirectly; at least they looked at the same problems and (sometimes) arrived at different answers.

fair enough - i agree

You honestly expected anything diff in todays generation of mmorpg's? This is about all thats being made anymore are crappy wow-clones/themeparks. Only mmo I have seen with some actual uniqueness in the last 6 years has been gw2. Till these pointless themepark mmo's stop selling and getting so many subs thats all devs are going to puke out. Its just business, they go where the easy money is.

Originally posted by laokoko

So basically gw2 have a dump down UI and amount of skill and it suddenly become inovation and different?  so in gw2 you don't have to worry about threat and mob simply attack the closest target it become special?

You know what game have public quest?  warhammer online.  And people call it wow clone.  My game experience is completely different when I play warhammer.  I can level purely from scenario and rvr, which is all I do, which is nothing like wow and people call it a wow clone.

EQ have open world raids and people say wow clone eq.  Wow actually had open world raids, just people don't take it seriously because open world raids can range from 10-100 people which make it bad for balancing the game.  I dont' know if Wow have open world raid now because I havn't play after the first expension.

The buttom line is if the game is not sandbox we call it a wow clone on this site.  But GW2 are taking it easy because of all the B2P fans/defenders. 

 

Have you ever seen what the GW1 AI could do?

They would ignore the warrior in the front and run straight to the dudes healing. Unless of course someone else had a stack of death penalty, meaning the mobs would spike them instead.

Look at people complaining about mobs dodging, mobs running out of AoE in the GW2 forums.

A dumb down UI and skills? 

Really?

And CS is the same as Doom. So does EQ and WoW also have open world raids that scale to the number of people while having public quests?

Public quests by the way that chain, have different objectives and faillure states. Public quests that take in account the number of farmers that were kidnapped in the previous event at ask you to rescue that precise number of farmers.

So you needed 3 games.

Now I'll bring back WvW.

Bam, DAoC. 4 games.

Open world dungeons? Something else.

Open world war against mobs for control points in Orr at level? I'm sure something else.

Crafting that produces BiS weapons and armor?

No mob tagging, instanced resource nodes?

Open world underwater dungeons?

How many games will you need?

Originally posted by Nadia

there were many other RPGs that used other styles -- no levels, no classes, use points instead of diceroll for characters

Well, "many" is a bit of an overstatement maybe; there was GURPS..and..uh..Palladium I think?  Oh, yah, Hero games systems, weren't very successful for fantasy.

Originally posted by deamian

MMO's are considered clones of eachother because there is an insanely large number of over sensitive MMO developers who lack imagination or forward thinking of any kind.

Fixed that for yah :)

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Originally posted by deamian

MMO's are considered clones of eachother because there is an insanely large number of over sensitive MMO developers who lack imagination or forward thinking of any kind.

Fixed that for yah :)

Possibly incorrectly.  Blaming Producers would get more support than blaming Joe Dev for doing what he's assigned to do.

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

I did not say that GW2 and WoW only used exact copies of features from other games. Both took many core features that existed in other games and adapted them in innovative ways.

what did WOW adapt in an innovative way?

Marketing.

They brought a niche product that was mainly looked down upon (MMO Gaming) and made it easily available/attainable for every home.

Also, Mister T

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Nadia

what did WOW adapt in an innovative way?

Well, they did make solid choices on some EQ-era design to discard.  I guess that counts as innovation, indirectly; at least they looked at the same problems and (sometimes) arrived at different answers.

Other companies could do the same--they just need to be willing to evaluate [what exists] for [what we could do better] instead of [copy the best seller, easy].

Then, of course, another company actually has to succeed in doing it better.  That's that scary rock in the road that everyone keeps tripping on.

This is a great point.  WOW did a great job at "solving" some of the problems that previous MMORPG's had which was a great thing.

Trouble is, their model isn't perfect, it has some problems as well, and until recently (GW2) few MMO developers have bothered to take the time to address the problems the current theme park model has.

They keep making virtually the same game as WOW, with the same problems it introduced over 7 years ago.

Let's hope more titles in the future look at what isn't working so well now and try to improve on it, instead of just copying GW2 for the next 8 years.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Nadia

there were many other RPGs that used other styles -- no levels, no classes, use points instead of diceroll for characters

Well, "many" is a bit of an overstatement maybe; there was GURPS..and..uh..Palladium I think?  Oh, yah, Hero games systems, weren't very successful for fantasy.

im rusty on the all the games being produced in the 80s, there was pen&paper boom during the same period that black and white  indie comics saw a boom in the mid80s (with teenage mutant turtles) but otherwise I agree, "many" have been an overstatement

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Originally posted by deamian

MMO's are considered clones of eachother because there is an insanely large number of over sensitive MMO developers who lack imagination or forward thinking of any kind.

Fixed that for yah :)

Possibly incorrectly.  Blaming Producers would get more support than blaming Joe Dev for doing what he's assigned to do.

I agree, its an unfortunate state of affairs when marketing suits direct the industry as a whole.

Personally, I think we really need a Sundance-type festival for the gaming industry to showcase indy games/game companies/projects. At the absolute least it would give AAA devs fresh ideas to steal for their new projects

Originally posted by Kyleran

This is a great point.  WOW did a great job at "solving" some of the problems that previous MMORPG's had which was a great thing.

Trouble is, their model isn't perfect, it has some problems as well, and until recently (GW2) few MMO developers have bothered to take the time to address the problems the current theme park model has.

They keep making virtually the same game as WOW, with the same problems it introduced over 7 years ago.

Let's hope more titles in the future look at what isn't working so well now and try to improve on it, instead of just copying GW2 for the next 8 years.

 

I might be wrong, but I think Anet has a ton of room to improve in GW2.

It is annoying when one thinks that in 2006-7 Anet was alreadty tinkering with the idea of Dynamic events, but limitations in GW1 engine made them build another game instead.

That is one of the problems of the genre - it takes a considerable amount of time to put out a MMORPG, especially when in these days the player demands good graphics, good physics effects, detailed worlds and a ton of content.

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Personally, I think we really need a Sundance-type festival for the gaming industry to showcase indy games/game companies/projects. At the absolute least it would give AAA devs fresh ideas to steal for their new projects

isnt that what PAX is?

http://prime.paxsite.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_Expo

Originally posted by Mexorilla

gw2 fans learned early on that calling a new game a WoW clone was the quickest way to rid this forum of any discussion that is not about gw2.  most people will follow behind the loudest voice.  right now the loudest voice is gw2.

Actually you will find it is the sandbox crowd, not the GW2 fans that go around calling every single themepark game a WoW clone.

I know that posting things in The Pub gets them more attention, but we've been here before. Please create these threads in their appropriate forums. 

Moving thread.

Originally posted by Nadia

Originally posted by Grixxitt

Personally, I think we really need a Sundance-type festival for the gaming industry to showcase indy games/game companies/projects. At the absolute least it would give AAA devs fresh ideas to steal for their new projects

isnt that what PAX is?

http://prime.paxsite.com/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_Arcade_Expo

I'm not really familiar with PAX but it doesn't look like it

The Penny Arcade Expo (PAX) is a series of gaming festivals held in both Seattle and Boston. PAX was created by Jerry Holkins and Mike Krahulik, the authors of the Penny Arcade webcomic, because they wanted to attend a show that gave equal attention to console gamers, computer gamers, and tabletop gamers

Either way it sounds like a ton of fun though