Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by coretex666

Tell me which of these is a new element in MMO gaming. The game itself does not bring anything that would be completely new, in my opinion. Year 2012 will not become a milestone in MMO gaming like 2004.

Out of curiosity, what did WoW (in 2004) brought to the genre that was "new"? I mean truly new, as per your own definition. I'm holding my breath now... :)

I did some thinking and did not come up with a "new" game mechanism in WoW. There had to be something about that game that in that time was demanded which caused the population to skyrocket.

If it was just the combination of all elements in the game then it would mean that GW has the same chances despite the fact that it does not bring any "new" aspects. Maybe it does, I just do not see it coming. When I read through the forum everyday, I see people demanding change / revolution / next gen mmo. I cannot imagine that release of a themepark which uses mechanisms that players have already seen (no matter how polished) become a new milestone.

But yea, your point is correct. It does kind of put the premises to my conclusion in question. :)

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by OldManFunk

Originally posted by laokoko

I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone.  That's probably the biggest reason.

And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you. 

 

GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?

 

As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.

 

TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.

It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone. 

 

I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game. 

 

Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.

Warcraft was a RTS/RPG which was turned into an MMO. The community was much less reluctant to accept the change of game mechanisms. In fact, it was seen as a move forward which I also support.

In case of TESO, they are trying to transform an existing RPG into an MMO. I consider that much harder than turning RTS into MMO in terms of pleasing the community. Especially if you consider that ES is one of the most successful RPG series ever made. Furthermore, the game always top graphics and is known for its game mechanisms which do not change from one ES part to next one (or at least not much). Now they are trying to bring this amazing RPG series into a pretty traditional themeparky world which the community apparently does not appreciate.

In regards to the original question, some people claim that none of these is a WoW clone. I do not like the term "WoW clone" since it implies that the game is practically a copy paste of WoW which obviously it is not.

You asked why is TESO considered a WoW clone and not GW 2. My opinion is, that they are both very close to WoW. As I mentioned above, I would not go as far as saying they are clones since there is an attempt to distinguish themselves from WoW. However, I have not seen anything new so far in these games.

GW fans like to say how many "innovations" there are. There are truly none. The game is different from WoW in several areas. However, in these areas, GW simply uses mechanisms of other games.

E.g.

Dynamic events

3 Factions

WvWvW

No holy trinity

Easily attainable gear cap

B2P model

Dodge button

Tell me which of these is a new element in MMO gaming. The game itself does not bring anything that would be completely new, in my opinion. Year 2012 will not become a milestone in MMO gaming like 2004.

And I am saying this as a person that actually bought GW, so this is not a hater opinion. I am just a person that is neither a fan nor a hater. Trying to stay unbiased, but no matter how much you try to be objective, you always look at the world through your own eyes, so feel free to disagree :)

GW2 in 2012 is doing what WoW did in 2004, i.e. taking many good features from other games and combining them into ONE GAME. All the features on your list have been done before, but never in one polished and easily accessible package.

Originally posted by OldManFunk

Originally posted by laokoko

I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone.  That's probably the biggest reason.

And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you. 

GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?

As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.

TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.

Agreed. If ESO is a clone of something it is more a DaoC clone than a Wow clone, but the problem is really that they take a game serie with millions of fans and make the MMO for a totally different playerbase. That might be unwise but we will just have to wait and see.

But ESO have most of it´s features from DaoC and since DaoC is several years older than Wow calling ESO Wow clone is just silly.

I kind of suspect more than a few people here to be bots that just spawn Wow clones whenever someone makes a thread about a new game (even if some game designers indeed have pasted and copied a lot from Wow).

Originally posted by laokoko

You know what game have public quest?  warhammer online.

This said, anyone who has played both games knows that comparing the public quests of warhammer with the dynamic events of GW2 is like comparing a rusted Traban with a brand new Ferrari Enzo.

Originally posted by dariuszp

For me - TES is not WoW clone but also it's not TES. This game is nothing like TES except lore.

agree - if i was to call TESO anything,  it would be the spiritual successor to DAOC

Originally posted by laokoko

I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone.  That's probably the biggest reason.

And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you. 

what has this topic got to do with gw2?

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

GW2 in 2012 is doing what WoW did in 2004, i.e. taking many good features from other games and combining them into ONE GAME. All the features on your list have been done before, but never in one polished and easily accessible package.

That is not 100% true. Some features like B2P were pioneered by ANET themselves and GW2 is really the first full AAA MMO with it. Other features have been used before but not the same way, like DEs. DEs have existed before but not instead of questing.

Most of the features are indeed from others but have been polished up to fit the game. Some like exploration were common in older MMOs but have been gone for many years.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Don't care who/what gets called a WoW Clone or not.

Since just seeing the term being seriously used by any author results in an instant mental discount of estimated I.Q., go nuts and join the "I just post handy sound byte memes" crew. 

 

Oh wow!

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by laokoko

I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone.  That's probably the biggest reason.

And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you. 

what has this topic got to do with gw2?

Check the posts of the OP. In of them, he brings gw into discussion.

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by MMOExposed

Originally posted by MadnessRealm

Originally posted by OldManFunk

Originally posted by laokoko

I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone.  That's probably the biggest reason.

And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you. 

 

GW2 isn't a WoW clone because of it's skill system, combat system, zoned world, fair and balanced sPvP, WvW, crafting system, AH features, and focus on events over quest hubs just to name a few features. Now I have to ask, am I wrong?

 

As far as TESO being called a WoW clone, there are obviously some seriously pissed off Elder Scrolls fans who are upset that the game doesn't live up to their expectations and calling a game a WoW clone is one of the biggest insults you can use on this forum without getting moded.

 

TESO isn't a WoW clone and neither is GW2.

It could be argued that throwing out what makes a TES game what it is, and replacing it with the traditionnal stuff, is a form of "WoWification" which would in turn cause players to call it a WoW clone. 

 

I mean let's face is, besides the names, TESO is nothing like a TES game. 

 

Besides name, Guilld Wars 2 is nothing like GW1. WoW is nothing like Warcraft besides name. Not sure how TESO get bashed for not being TES.

Warcraft was a RTS/RPG which was turned into an MMO. The community was much less reluctant to accept the change of game mechanisms. In fact, it was seen as a move forward which I also support.

In case of TESO, they are trying to transform an existing RPG into an MMO. I consider that much harder than turning RTS into MMO in terms of pleasing the community. Especially if you consider that ES is one of the most successful RPG series ever made. Furthermore, the game always top graphics and is known for its game mechanisms which do not change from one ES part to next one (or at least not much). Now they are trying to bring this amazing RPG series into a pretty traditional themeparky world which the community apparently does not appreciate.

In regards to the original question, some people claim that none of these is a WoW clone. I do not like the term "WoW clone" since it implies that the game is practically a copy paste of WoW which obviously it is not.

You asked why is TESO considered a WoW clone and not GW 2. My opinion is, that they are both very close to WoW. As I mentioned above, I would not go as far as saying they are clones since there is an attempt to distinguish themselves from WoW. However, I have not seen anything new so far in these games.

GW fans like to say how many "innovations" there are. There are truly none. The game is different from WoW in several areas. However, in these areas, GW simply uses mechanisms of other games.

E.g.

Dynamic events

3 Factions

WvWvW

No holy trinity

Easily attainable gear cap

B2P model

Dodge button

Tell me which of these is a new element in MMO gaming. The game itself does not bring anything that would be completely new, in my opinion. Year 2012 will not become a milestone in MMO gaming like 2004.

And I am saying this as a person that actually bought GW, so this is not a hater opinion. I am just a person that is neither a fan nor a hater. Trying to stay unbiased, but no matter how much you try to be objective, you always look at the world through your own eyes, so feel free to disagree :)

Being innovative this days doesn't require you to re-invent the wheel or penicilin... What it takes is to man up enough to combine all those features together even tho there wasn't any huge succes (aka. WoW formula) with it before, combine it so it works well with other things in games, make the best of it and hope for success :D

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by coretex666
 

GW2 in 2012 is doing what WoW did in 2004, i.e. taking many good features from other games and combining them into ONE GAME. All the features on your list have been done before, but never in one polished and easily accessible package.

I sure would like to hear which game has used dynamic event -like feature in a chain or web-like manner with multiple end-states to completely replace questing.

This is, in effect, questing 2.0.

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Well looking over this forum's activity, it seem like the community here views TESO as a WoW clone. This come sup in just about every thread.

But what I want to know is how/why is TESO being considered a WoW clone?

How is TESO considered a WoW clone but GW2 isn't?

TESO seems to share many features with GW2, except it has three faction PvP in the world shared by PvE. You still have active dodge and block mechanics like GW2, and you have class system like GW2, and I heard it has events, but not sure to what extent. Also TESO is being backed by some DAoC developers for PvP.

Sounds closest to GW2 than WoW. So how is it a WoW clone but not GW2?

Honesty, where does the WoW come into this at all?

It is the go to response, kind of like Obama blaming Bush. Seems it is so ingrained into peoples psyche that it is the first thing to come out of their fingertips...

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by laokoko

I suppose GW2 being b2p made people not calling it a wow clone.  That's probably the biggest reason.

And if you want to say bad thing about GW2, you'll have a big b2p fan base behind your back waiting to stab you. 

what has this topic got to do with gw2?

The thread topic has NOTHING to do with GW2.

However, that doesn't stop it from being totally derailed into a GW2 discussion 

It's a common problem on these forums lately...

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by coretex666
 

GW2 in 2012 is doing what WoW did in 2004, i.e. taking many good features from other games and combining them into ONE GAME. All the features on your list have been done before, but never in one polished and easily accessible package.

I sure would like to hear which game has used dynamic event -like feature in a chain or web-like manner with multiple end-states to completely replace questing.

This is, in effect, questing 2.0.

I agree with you Quirhid, I'd like to hear that as well...

But, I do agree with Spotty as well, gw2 is just trying to kick out the "usual" concept of mmorpgs using some other games as an inspiration (and there's nothing wrong with that if the game does the job good and improves everything we've seen so far).

Originally posted by korent1991

Being innovative this days doesn't require you to re-invent the wheel or penicilin... What it takes is to man up enough to combine all those features together even tho there wasn't any huge succes (aka. WoW formula) with it before, combine it so it works well with other things in games, make the best of it and hope for success :D

Not even that, it just needs to feel like a different game to play.

Rift kinda failed with that, anyone playing Wow, EQ 2 or LOTRO will feel right home in it and recognize almost everything.

TOR did succeed that way but the problem with it is that most of the content is singleplayer focused so most MMO players tired after a month or 2 (which indeed is as long as I play almost all singleplayer games) so it became very popular a short time only.

You can say a whole lot about GW2 but playing it feels rather different from anything I ever played and I played a lot.

Originally posted by Loke666

Originally posted by korent1991

Being innovative this days doesn't require you to re-invent the wheel or penicilin... What it takes is to man up enough to combine all those features together even tho there wasn't any huge succes (aka. WoW formula) with it before, combine it so it works well with other things in games, make the best of it and hope for success :D

Not even that, it just needs to feel like a different game to play.

Rift kinda failed with that, anyone playing Wow, EQ 2 or LOTRO will feel right home in it and recognize almost everything.

TOR did succeed that way but the problem with it is that most of the content is singleplayer focused so most MMO players tired after a month or 2 (which indeed is as long as I play almost all singleplayer games) so it became very popular a short time only.

You can say a whole lot about GW2 but playing it feels rather different from anything I ever played and I played a lot.

I agree with you... I also loved my first month and felt immersed into the game, I was sucked right into it... But then as my 2nd month was slipping away I was feeling like I'm alone in this world xD Only place where I was running into more than 3 people was the fleet. :(

Originally posted by Nefera

Originally posted by DJJazzy

Originally posted by fivoroth

Who is actually developing this MMO? I hope it's not Bethesda as they should be working on the new TES game and their other franchises. I can't wait for Dishonoured to come out. That game looks badass.

The parent company of Bethesda, ZeniMax, is making the mmo.

Have these guys developed a MMO before? Or any game for that matter? Am I the only one that is concerned by this?

Zenimax is headed by Matt Firor, one of the founders of Mythic Entertainment    ie Dark Age of Camelot

2007 interview

http://www.shacknews.com/article/48493/interview-zenimax-onlines-matt-firor

Earlier this month, Mythic co-founder Matt Firor was named as the new leader of ZeniMax Online Studios. ZeniMax--the parent company of Elder Scrolls and Fallout 3 developer Bethesda--is charging Firor with putting together a team that can compete in the MMO market.

Originally posted by MMOExposed
Well looking over this forum's activity, it seem like the community here views TESO as a WoW clone. This come sup in just about every thread.

But what I want to know is how/why is TESO being considered a WoW clone?

How is TESO considered a WoW clone but GW2 isn't?

TESO seems to share many features with GW2, except it has three faction PvP in the world shared by PvE. You still have active dodge and block mechanics like GW2, and you have class system like GW2, and I heard it has events, but not sure to what extent. Also TESO is being backed by some DAoC developers for PvP.

Sounds closest to GW2 than WoW. So how is it a WoW clone but not GW2?

Honesty, where does the WoW come into this at all?

I could be wrong on this, but I believe it's related to TESO going to an archaic trinity system instead of a "no set roles" system like GW2. I think that's the main reason "WoW clone" was mentioned, justifiably or not.

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by coretex666
 

GW2 in 2012 is doing what WoW did in 2004, i.e. taking many good features from other games and combining them into ONE GAME. All the features on your list have been done before, but never in one polished and easily accessible package.

I sure would like to hear which game has used dynamic event -like feature in a chain or web-like manner with multiple end-states to completely replace questing.

This is, in effect, questing 2.0.

I agree with you Quirhid, I'd like to hear that as well...

But, I do agree with Spotty as well, gw2 is just trying to kick out the "usual" concept of mmorpgs using some other games as an inspiration (and there's nothing wrong with that if the game does the job good and improves everything we've seen so far).

I did not say that GW2 and WoW only used exact copies of features from other games. Both took many core features that existed in other games and adapted them in innovative ways. The resulting implementation was still recognizable, but it was not the same.

DE's existed before GW2, but the way the concept is used in GW2 is innovative, because it has not been used that way before. If you take something and improve it, that's good. If you simply copy something, that's bad.

Back on topic:

I've not seen anything in TESO that looks like an improvement on other MMO's. It looks like it will be a "generic MMO" set in the TES universe. So gameplay will not be the same as I'm used to in TES games. You cannot take a single-player game and simply make it an MMO, it will not play the same way.

TESO gameplay will be nothing like a TES single-player game. The experience will be totally different. So calling it TES Online is a joke. It will be a medieval fantasy MMO using races and place names from the TES universe. Even the world maps will be different.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by DJJazzy

As for the topic, it certainly isn't a wow clone. Despite what others in this thread are telling you.

It's like saying a Honda Civic is a Corvette clone because they are both cars.

That doesn't stop silly people from posting theyre clones just because they don't like 'em. Its just venting. You just have to wish they'd punch a wall instead.

Oooh, a fun analogy to play with.

Think of it this way.

I have a Honda Civic.  Nice car, decent features, gets me from point A to point B in the same amount of time as most any other car out there. (assuuming I follow the rules)

I ask you to build me a flying car.  Yep, I want it to take me from A to B in the air and at about 250 mph.  Also it needs to hover, include onboard radio communication to air traffic control and look good at the same time.  (should come with 50 caliber machine guns so I can PVP with anyone who pisses me off  too) 

And you give me a Corvette. 

Now while it is true, the Corvette is a pretty sweet ride, and certainly goes much faster than my Civic, doesn't change the fact that you failed to deliver me a flying car, and in fact gave me "a clone" of my Civic.

Now, of course there never has been a flying car, but in MMORPG space there are alternative game features that older games had (and were quite fun, you know, like housing, or no levels, or classes and the like) but for some reason MMORPG developers no longer provide them, they give us a remake of WOW (or standard theme park model if you like)

Now actually I don't know enough about TESO to call it a clone, but I see where the people who do so are coming from.  They had a chance to at least retain things from the single player game, like no classes and chose to instead follow the traditional model. 

Do that too often and you will end up with a clone.