Originally posted by Icewhite

How many times has WoW's ultimate demise been forecast (incorrectly) now?  Half a million threads?

We just got tired of that one and moved on to the industry as a whole.  Same quality of predictive powers though.

I don't think you're understanding the OP.  He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead.  Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now.  I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.

I bet if you told Brad McQuaid back in 1999 on what MMO's would REQUIRE in today's age he would go on an epic mission to destroy his creation (kind of like that black guy from Terminator 2).

*note I reference EQ1 over Ultima because we seem to be talking more about the origins of the theme park genre.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Tarka
I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades?  Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too?   If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names).   Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing?   Fishing?  I agree.  What else?  RP events?  I agree too.

 

Any other suggestions?

Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion :)

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I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression.

Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.

I understand, what do you have in mind?  Bearing in mind the context of the virtual world in question (e.g. take a fantasy world like GW2 or WoW), what forms would this virtual world content take?

For instance, when you talk about aquariums, I would think that you are referring to areas of beauty in a virtual world that really have no direct connection to a "Story" but nevertheless have been designed and exist in the virtual world to simply "be there and appreciated".   A sort of "Easter Egg" for players to find and enjoy.

Its sure as hell dead. And I agree with 

"100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized."

Hopefully something good will come out of this. My guess is no, there is cash to be made :) So I will play my solo games and now and then jump into a mmo just to see if there is something that can catch my attenion. And Im happy for you guys that dosent agree with the OP. 

Originally posted by agriffin85

I don't think you're understanding the OP.  He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead.  Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now.  I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.

Did you perchance notice the emotively loaded language used in your first paragraph?  Do you understand that you're toying with conceptuals, with value judgements, with wild guesses and exaggerations, typical forum hyperbole?  There isn't any data here, or in the OP's prediction.

Slippery slope.  Mmorpg.com provides daily courses in writing it.

"Gather round me, disaffected people, and shout 'Me Too'! when I cue you."  Demagoguery is a simple game.

Originally posted by Icewhite

Originally posted by agriffin85

I don't think you're understanding the OP.  He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead.  Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now.  I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.

Did you perchance notice the emotively loaded language used in your first paragraph?  Do you understand that you're toying with conceptuals, with value judgements, with wild guesses and exaggerations, typical forum hyperbole?  There isn't any data here, or in the OP's prediction.

Slippery slope.  Mmorpg.com provides daily courses in writing it.

I dont see what you are seeing. Could you please explain it a bit better maybe? 

Data is humbug just as predictions :) 

With a few exceptions, the virtual world style of MMO is dead.  Ironically, the persistent world is one of the main defining features of MMORPGs, yet its importance has been eroded by the continual introduction of systems that favor casual, solo gameplay.  Game developers want to maximize their playerbases, and in order to do that, they have to appeal to the masses, i.e. the casual player.

Unfortunately, that genie is out of the bottle, permanently.  There are a handful of games that continue to buck the trend, but so far the genre is dominated by such mass-market games.

Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

 You must know that forums of this site are full with enraged Guild Wars 2 fans. They won't like this op belive me, as GW2 is the game that trying to make a standard from those greedy "revolutionary" game mechanics. So this is directly  against them, so be careful, my first post was deleted from those forums cause i said all those stuff but directly in the case of guild wars.

Originally posted by agriffin85

Originally posted by Icewhite

How many times has WoW's ultimate demise been forecast (incorrectly) now?  Half a million threads?

We just got tired of that one and moved on to the industry as a whole.  Same quality of predictive powers though.

 

I don't think you're understanding the OP.  He didn't say WoW or MMO's were going to die, he said the GENRE is dead.  Meaning it's a souless husk of what it was intended to be, it's just a cashgrab now.  I'm not saying modern MMO's are terrible but I totally agree with the OP's insight on what the genre has turned into.

I bet if you told Brad McQuaid back in 1999 on what MMO's would REQUIRE in today's age he would go on an epic mission to destroy his creation (kind of like that black guy from Terminator 2).

 

*note I reference EQ1 over Ultima because we seem to be talking more about the origins of the theme park genre.

"souless husk"? No .. it is more fun now than before. The genre is tuning into lobby based co-op games which focus on fun, rather than useless sound good but boring virtual world mechanics like waiting.

If Brad knows what happened today, he will jump directly in front of the trend to make more money, and beat everyone to it. If not, some other will do it. There is always the innovative devs who sees what players want.

Originally posted by Rohn

With a few exceptions, the virtual world style of MMO is dead.  Ironically, the persistent world is one of the main defining features of MMORPGs, yet its importance has been eroded by the continual introduction of systems that favor casual, solo gameplay.  Game developers want to maximize their playerbases, and in order to do that, they have to appeal to the masses, i.e. the casual player.

Unfortunately, that genie is out of the bottle, permanently.  There are a handful of games that continue to buck the trend, but so far the genre is dominated by such mass-market games.

Which is great ... from my point of view. Sacrificing fun to focus on a virtual world is not consistent to the mission of games ... to entertain.

I am glad where the market is going.

Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

I wouldn't say it is dead. The genre is just evolving. Some like the changes and some do not. Cash shops are pretty much standard because devs can get more money this way than just a sub fee. This is just the way it is now we either have to embrace it for what it is or just turn our backs on it. This has become an industry standard now.

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Originally posted by Tarka

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Tarka I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades?  Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too?   If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names).   Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing?   Fishing?  I agree.  What else?  RP events?  I agree too.   Any other suggestions? Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion :)

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  I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression. Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.

---

I understand, what do you have in mind?  Bearing in mind the context of the virtual world in question (e.g. take a fantasy world like GW2 or WoW), what forms would this virtual world content take?

For instance, when you talk about aquariums, I would think that you are referring to areas of beauty in a virtual world that really have no direct connection to a "Story" but nevertheless have been designed and exist in the virtual world to simply "be there and appreciated".   A sort of "Easter Egg" for players to find and enjoy.

---

If I were dealing with GW2. First, Id get rid of cash shop items that supplemented crafting (the ones that change appearance, color, stats) and implement it into the actual crafting system.

Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.

With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.

After that, I would tackle social spaces. All chairs can be sat in, all walls leaned up against. I would have a separate UI when im not in combat that has hotkeys for various moods, emotes, and customized chat scripts.

Then I would get rid of node farming and incorporate crafting and gathering into the dynamic event system. Maybe a mining town is under attack. If it is saved, you have access to metals for a period of time. Or perhaps a farm is ransacked and you help the people till their land in return you are rewarded with fresh fruits and vegetables to cook with. Sheep farms for tailors or exotic wares from random merchants. A special loom or forge owned by a specific local of an obscure village. Only available when certain criteria are met and scattered across the world.

Then I would put in a race of some sort. Each city has a track that snakes through its streets and once a day or week, players can purchase either a mount or vehicle made by a crafter or breeder and enter the race. Leaderboards for each city are regularly updated and better crafted or bred mounts contribute to your performance ie top speeds, handling, etc.

I would allow pubs to have music and dance customized by the players. Being able to grab a partner and swing them around, or get up on stage and change the tune. Have the ability to control lighting and various effects as well. Create moods in a social space.

Id also have a team sport of some kind. Think Huttball. Butinstead of having all of your combat moves and killing the other players, you have a set of physical abilities like duck, speed bost, tackle, shoot, pass, formations, audibles, etc. Have arenas in each major city and tournaments spread out over several circuits.

Theres more, but this is all going to get shot down anyway heh.

Originally posted by Foomerang

Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.

With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.

LOl .. really? If i want to play SIMS .. i go play SIMS or second life. This is a waste of resources for a combat centric GAME.

Oh, i won't refuse to play a game with housing, but i just don't care and if the combat/progression is not done well, i am out of here.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Rohn

With a few exceptions, the virtual world style of MMO is dead.  Ironically, the persistent world is one of the main defining features of MMORPGs, yet its importance has been eroded by the continual introduction of systems that favor casual, solo gameplay.  Game developers want to maximize their playerbases, and in order to do that, they have to appeal to the masses, i.e. the casual player.

Unfortunately, that genie is out of the bottle, permanently.  There are a handful of games that continue to buck the trend, but so far the genre is dominated by such mass-market games.

Which is great ... from my point of view. Sacrificing fun to focus on a virtual world is not consistent to the mission of games ... to entertain.

I am glad where the market is going.

That's the point.  The one thing that really separates MMORPGs from other games, from other RPGs specifically, is the persistent world inhabited by a massive concurrent population of players.  The current trend is to eliminate the relevance of that persistent world, which makes little sense to me.

The concept of "fun" couldn't be any more subjective.  To me, the virtual world/society was the fun of an MMO.  Frankly, as far as fun is concerned, single-player and co-op games have superior game mechanics across the board when compared to MMOs, and are potentially a lot more "fun".  Unfortunately, most current MMOs have devolved into single-player lobby games, without the benefit of those better mechanics.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Foomerang

Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.

With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.

LOl .. really? If i want to play SIMS .. i go play SIMS or second life. This is a waste of resources for a combat centric GAME.

Oh, i won't refuse to play a game with housing, but i just don't care and if the combat/progression is not done well, i am out of here.

Thing is people who want features like Foomerang do not want mmorpg's as combat centric only  :)

Besides SIMS is also a game.

Another thing is that Sims does not offer combat and I get a feeling that Foomerang want BOTH combat and non-combat things. Plenty of both in one game.

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Originally posted by fenistil

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Originally posted by nariusseldon

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Originally posted by Foomerang Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee. With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.

---

LOl .. really? If i want to play SIMS .. i go play SIMS or second life. This is a waste of resources for a combat centric GAME. Oh, i won't refuse to play a game with housing, but i just don't care and if the combat/progression is not done well, i am out of here.

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Thing is people who want features like Foomerang do not want mmorpg's as combat centric only  :)

Besides SIMS is also a game.

Another thing is that Sims does not offer combat and I get a feeling that Foomerang want BOTH combat and non-combat things. Plenty of both in one game.

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Exactly. The more things you can do, the more types of people play. The more types of people play, the more diverse and interesting people you meet. The more diverse and interesting people you meet, the more rewarding a virtual world becomes. That is one huge plus to having a game with lots of valid playstyles.

Originally posted by Sovrath

Sorry Clerigo but he's right.

Let's take your examples, rift, swtor, etc.

More people play those games NOW after the initial excitement has worn off than any of the early games. didn't EQ have 200 or 250k? did ultima have more? How much? I can't imagine it was hundreds of thousands more. What you seem to be asserting is that the small group of people who started in the mmo genre were right and the many more who are now playing and enjoying these games are wrong.

Ok, EQ peaked at around 650k, UO was in the low 400's, same with AC.  Just for the sake of numbers.

Where i take beef with this post is you're making a HUGE mistake.  The mistake you're making is assuming that MMO genre today is the same as it was in the beginning.  What i mean by that is the MMO genre existed for about 4 years as a genre that catered to a specific niche type of gaming.  WOW came along and broadened the genre.  Let me use racing as an example:

When MMO's came out, it was for people who were really into "racing", these people had cars suited specifically for the task.  But because of that, these cars were loud, uncomfortable, hot, expensive, etc.  Now, imagine someone came along, saw this racing community and went, "hmm, i can really monetize that!".  So they come in, buy out the race tracks, release their own racing series, but they let everyone in.  You've got a 1987 Ford Fiesta?  Sure, why not.  A minivan?  sure ok, who cares. 

Well now, all those people in the racing specific cars are forced to try to race on a track with bunch of POS minivans and ford fiestas.

My point is that blizzard changed the genre and caused a snowball effect.   What was once something pure is now a big hodge podge of shit.

So, to answer your question, yes, the people who play "MMOs" now ARE wrong.  Because they aren't playing MMO's, what is out now is not an MMO, it bears little resemblance to what real MMO's were designed for. 

This is not to say that your opinion of today's games is "wrong" because you like what you like. But the mmo genre has grown and it seems that the majority of people playing are into today's games.

you might rebut with "they never stay in them for more than a few months if that". And I would say "that's because today's mmo gamers are probably not looking for anything with a greater commitment.

You can't take the template of the early adopters and apply that to everyone who has become a current mmo player.

Truth of the matter is that most of these games gather way more people at launch than they rightfully should have. Some of these people are looking for something different from WoW and then start crying because the games are not WoW; some of them are just looking for something to play for a small bit and then they can hop onto the next game that comes out.

When you cut away the players who really would never be interested in some of these games you do find that they still have players.

Rift has players. SWToR has players. AoC has players. Star Trek online has playres. And who do I listen to? The jaded and unhappy mmo gamres who decry the current set of games; where everything is shit, or the guy at work who isn't an mmo gamer but he tried Star Trek online and then says to me "I don't know why some people dont' like this game, it's really fun".

Do I listen to post after post of angry, angry forum goers or the father who plays SWToR with his daughter and I see them going on about how much they enjoy it and how much fun they are having?

Have you ever heard the expression "water finds its own level"? Many of these games had/have issues, true, but they still have an audience playing them. They still have fans.

Heck, I remember one woman at work who, to my surprise, was in a WoW raiding guild and she was applauding the changes that were being made to WoW because it meant that she would have more time to play. Essentially she liked the more casual aspect that was being added.

The mmo genre is growing and like any media, it has gathered greater fans but fans who are not as hardcore or who do not have the desire to play games that are "virtual worlds". Heck, even another guy at work, who I would say is a "gamer" told me last month that he preferred his games to be more like games and less like "worlds".

And the current mmos' are just up his alley.

So from a business standpoint, i totally agree and understand what you're saying.  The problem is that gaming/games is a form of entertainment which is a form of art.  At some point you have to draw a line between what you're willing to do as a producer of art/entertainment to increase sales vs maintain your ethical integrity.

Our concern as "jaded/embittered" gamers is that something which we loved has been twisted and pissed on and turned into something it never was.  Calling today's MMORPG's "MMORPG's" is literally a joke.  They bear little resemblance to what an MMO was.

Its kind of like saying that a minivan is like a ferrari because they're both cars.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by Tarka

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Originally posted by Foomerang  

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Originally posted by Tarka I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades?  Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too?   If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names).   Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing?   Fishing?  I agree.  What else?  RP events?  I agree too.   Any other suggestions? Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion :)

---

  I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression. Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.

---

I understand, what do you have in mind?  Bearing in mind the context of the virtual world in question (e.g. take a fantasy world like GW2 or WoW), what forms would this virtual world content take?

 

For instance, when you talk about aquariums, I would think that you are referring to areas of beauty in a virtual world that really have no direct connection to a "Story" but nevertheless have been designed and exist in the virtual world to simply "be there and appreciated".   A sort of "Easter Egg" for players to find and enjoy.

 

---

 

If I were dealing with GW2. First, Id get rid of cash shop items that supplemented crafting (the ones that change appearance, color, stats) and implement it into the actual crafting system.

Then I would decide on the amount of players I could hold per server and make permanent, not instanced housing in each major city. For example, if there are 4 major cities and 6000 players capped per server, I would construct a non instanced district in each city that had four to five large buildings which would total 1500 units for rent. Players could trade room and location and grab vacancies based on a recurring rental fee.

With housing comes furniture, art, music libraries, pets, cooking and plants. I would have crafting classes that accomidate all of those. From running a nursery to a pet breeder and all the stuff in between. Clothing would also be in that category and I would have a crafting class that specializes in creating aesthetic attire.

After that, I would tackle social spaces. All chairs can be sat in, all walls leaned up against. I would have a separate UI when im not in combat that has hotkeys for various moods, emotes, and customized chat scripts.

Then I would get rid of node farming and incorporate crafting and gathering into the dynamic event system. Maybe a mining town is under attack. If it is saved, you have access to metals for a period of time. Or perhaps a farm is ransacked and you help the people till their land in return you are rewarded with fresh fruits and vegetables to cook with. Sheep farms for tailors or exotic wares from random merchants. A special loom or forge owned by a specific local of an obscure village. Only available when certain criteria are met and scattered across the world.

Then I would put in a race of some sort. Each city has a track that snakes through its streets and once a day or week, players can purchase either a mount or vehicle made by a crafter or breeder and enter the race. Leaderboards for each city are regularly updated and better crafted or bred mounts contribute to your performance ie top speeds, handling, etc.

I would allow pubs to have music and dance customized by the players. Being able to grab a partner and swing them around, or get up on stage and change the tune. Have the ability to control lighting and various effects as well. Create moods in a social space.

Id also have a team sport of some kind. Think Huttball. Butinstead of having all of your combat moves and killing the other players, you have a set of physical abilities like duck, speed bost, tackle, shoot, pass, formations, audibles, etc. Have arenas in each major city and tournaments spread out over several circuits.

Theres more, but this is all going to get shot down anyway heh.

Im not gona shot down your idea, like everything on paper it sounds great.

But i really gota ask you, and im sorry that this may sound rude but do you go out a lot?

All the things you are mentioning happen in real life and there are people doing it everyday. And you know what? it takes A LOT OF TIME.

The reality is people no longer want to invest all their time or even a substantial ammount of it on games.

People have jobs, families, college, etc. The community that once played MMOs in the beggining nowdays is too busy in real life to be part of a virtual world.

The features you mention all sound great but who is gona have the time to do them?

Im not saying people wouldnt want a virtual world, its just people are too busy to take care of it.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.

As the OP said the genre is dead , well nearly.......

All the old problems are gameplay elements that do not require content creation , sanitiesd dumbed down insta everything yes the genre is dead except for maybe one .....

But games do exist that provide something of what we used to get sadly they are text based and have tight communities and require patience , effort and an ability to think. Sadly 99.99% of gameplayers to day are not capable of this and it was a pre-requisite of the genre as was...

Originally posted by Hrimnir

Ok, EQ peaked at around 650k, UO was in the low 400's, same with AC.  Just for the sake of numbers.

Where i take beef with this post is you're making a HUGE mistake.  The mistake you're making is assuming that MMO genre today is the same as it was in the beginning.  What i mean by that is the MMO genre existed for about 4 years as a genre that catered to a specific niche type of gaming.  WOW came along and broadened the genre.  Let me use racing as an example:

When MMO's came out, it was for people who were really into "racing", these people had cars suited specifically for the task.  But because of that, these cars were loud, uncomfortable, hot, expensive, etc.  Now, imagine someone came along, saw this racing community and went, "hmm, i can really monetize that!".  So they come in, buy out the race tracks, release their own racing series, but they let everyone in.  You've got a 1987 Ford Fiesta?  Sure, why not.  A minivan?  sure ok, who cares. 

Well now, all those people in the racing specific cars are forced to try to race on a track with bunch of POS minivans and ford fiestas.

My point is that blizzard changed the genre and caused a snowball effect.   What was once something pure is now a big hodge podge of shit.

So, to answer your question, yes, the people who play "MMOs" now ARE wrong.  Because they aren't playing MMO's, what is out now is not an MMO, it bears little resemblance to what real MMO's were designed for. 

So from a business standpoint, i totally agree and understand what you're saying.  The problem is that gaming/games is a form of entertainment which is a form of art.  At some point you have to draw a line between what you're willing to do as a producer of art/entertainment to increase sales vs maintain your ethical integrity.

Our concern as "jaded/embittered" gamers is that something which we loved has been twisted and pissed on and turned into something it never was.  Calling today's MMORPG's "MMORPG's" is literally a joke.  They bear little resemblance to what an MMO was.

Its kind of like saying that a minivan is like a ferrari because they're both cars.

So well put I just want to cry .....

Back to Pen Paper and MUDs , no need to flog a dead horse ; I think someone will deliver a blast from the past lets just hope....

I know one game in development which will buck the trend and deliver something incredible...... but not something i'd discuss any further on this site

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Originally posted by austriacus
Im not gona shot down your idea, like everything on paper it sounds great.

But i really gota ask you, and im sorry that this may sound rude but do you go out a lot?

All the things you are mentioning happen in real life and there are people doing it everyday. And you know what? it takes A LOT OF TIME.

The reality is people no longer want to invest all their time or even a substantial ammount of it on games.

People have jobs, families, college, etc. The community that once played MMOs in the beggining nowdays is too busy in real life to be part of a virtual world.

The features you mention all sound great but who is gona have the time to do them?

Im not saying people wouldnt want a virtual world, its just people are too busy to take care of it.

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I remember playing SWG for about 6 months and was talking to this guy one night in a cantina. He had been places and done things that I didnt know existed yet and vice versa. It was an eye opening experience that two people could cross paths in the same game and have completely different experiences. And I'm not talking about "oh you killed that boar with a fireball? I used a sword." or "you killed centaurs at the farm? I helped put out fires when I was there." Im talking about "I spend my time mixing songs for stage performances, he owns a restaurant on the other side of the world, she owns a mining operation, and yes, he goes out and kills centuars"