Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

Yeh .. i agree with you. In fact, this is a direction I LIKE. More lobby co-op dungeon runs. Just say "no" to boring time sink, and walking-around "non-game".

Originally posted by Zorgo

I have a slightly different way of saying it. It isn't to me that the genre is dead, it is that the genre I was introduced to, is not what we original players or what I believe the original developers ever expected  the genre to evolve into.

Well, you can't fight progress. I was there when MMO starts (even before UO .. played a pre-cursor called Kingdom of Drakkar). So what if it changes. FPS is not the same as DOOM. RTS is not the same as the old turn base war games.

To me, MMOs evolve into better games. That is progress.

The philosophy back then was that as the genre developed, the worlds would become more open, more in depth, more complex. We envisioned EQ without zone lines and more emersive graphics, more ways to draw you into the world, more ways to differentiate your character, more reasons to play at max lvl. More ways to be unique. Many ways to meet challenges - specifically, I don't any of us expected routine rotations or button mashing.

That philosophy obviously has flaws. The biggest flaw is to put in too many non-fun elements, in the name of virtual worlds. Today's philosophy is better .. make it a fun game first, everything else second.

Today's combat mechanics is 100x more interesting than EQ ... i played a wiz then .. there is no proc, no CDs, no intersting skills. You just spam your main nuke. A rotation is 10x more interesting .. at least you are doing something different. And we haven't even getting into mana management, DPS burst on demand, and how those interact with boss mechanics.

I'm not necessarily even saying more sandboxy - but I think it is pretty obvious that most of the original crowd thought that would be the direction - but instead, more that the current games feel so completely different than the original games. We thought the worlds we would have would be immersive for years, not months.

They are obviously wrong. And very few game can be fun for years. Months is already an achievement. This notion of playing just ONE game for years is arcane and out of time. There is no reason not to play more games .. have more different gaming experiences.

I would much prefer a very fun 1 week, than a mediocre repetitive 2 years.

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by QuicklyScott

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.

Oh, what terrible problems, those really are crippling modern MMOs.........

Crippling? You call features that players want "crippling"? LOL.

In fact, if it is not for LFR, i won't even come back to WOW. Those are must-have features now.

Absolutely pathetic how you cannot recognise the sarcasm in my post.  Wow.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Quirhid

This is why we need a sticky thread from this topic so we don't need to see new threads pop up.

Because you are unable to control yourself from looking at them?

Sticky threads are the worst idea this forum has, totally kills discussion of topics that people like myself wish to discuss.

If you don't like them, don't read and respond to them. 

This genre has drastically changed from what it was previously, no denying that regardless how you slice it.

Whether that is a good or bad thing is of course entirely based on your personal preferences, and from a developer perspective I guess they're happy and making enough money to keep churning the titles out.

We'll not see a return to the days of yore, the masses invaded the space that transformed MMO's from a hobbyist pursuit to a mass market juggernaut.

For better or worse.

Does anything good come from these threads? Frustrated posters come to vent and bash the current breed of games and gamers. There's a reason why you don't "open up" (or complain) in the army: it brings down morale and nobody really gives a fuck what your problem is.

It would be fine if they'd start a thread just now and again (like "come back to Vanguard" or "If you're a guy playing a girl, you're a homo" -threads), but how it is brought up almost everyday, and if not in a new thread then they turn to it in other threads. They have nothing to say they just want wallow in their misery. Same posters over and over - It is really depressing even if I do not agree with them.

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Vesavius

Originally posted by Quirhid

Does anything good come from these threads? Frustrated posters come to vent and bash the current breed of games and gamers.

 

Well, I actually posted a postive reply in the thread about the direction of the genre and how it's ok for me.

But you choose to not encourage a positive discussion and ignored that and instead chose to post your witty 'doom and gloom' pic to bait the moaners.

I guess some folks like to complain about games, and others like to complain about other posters.

 

If you want a better forum start responding to the type of posts you want to see more of is my advice. If you just give attention to the negatives you are really no better then they.

Hell, I've tried. It doesn't work. And like I've already said it is not contained within these threads. Mods should lock these threads like they do with themepark vs. sandbox threads and refer to one sticky thread where people can vent as much as they want.

This bashing (the games, the players) seems to be partly mod approved because it continues on from thread to thread. Since you enjoy the, in their mind, "failed MMOs" you must be dim-witted or othewise ignorant. The posters regularly do not offer any more explanation. It is ridiculous. Terms like "instant gratification-crowd" and such are similar to stereotypes like "women can't drive", "blondes are stupid", "catholic priests are pedophiles", "americans are fat" etc. and use of such stereotypes should be discouraged.

I demand a comment from the admins. Not too long ago they locked my thread, without comment, in which I included a poll if a dedicated sticky thread for all this venting should be created.

Originally posted by QuicklyScott

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by QuicklyScott

Originally posted by nariusseldon

Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.

Oh, what terrible problems, those really are crippling modern MMOs.........

Crippling? You call features that players want "crippling"? LOL.

In fact, if it is not for LFR, i won't even come back to WOW. Those are must-have features now.

Absolutely pathetic how you cannot recognise the sarcasm in my post.  Wow.

Wow, you are just all wound up here today.  Look, please stop trying to censor us. 

We like bashing people's games, their playing habits, their stereotypes even, as long as we don't make it personal, it's all within the rules.

It's all part of forum PVP and its entirely voluntary, up to you whether you join in fray or not.

Nothing worse than this sites sticky threads, only serves to completely stifle discussion on a particular topic, great example, grouping vs soloing.  I want to discuss that topic ad naseum if I like, in a dozen,or a half a hundred threads. 

I've been reading and posting on these forums for over 6 years and 15K posts, and I don't find them repetitious or annoying, I like it here and the changes you propose will diminish my entertainment.

We all pay the same fee to be here.....wait, we pay nothing, so I guess we're all pretty equal in that regard.

Again, if the train wreck annoys you so much, please stop staring at it, plenty of other threads, articles and what not to read here.

Nuts now I'm way off topic, but lets face it, you can't argue that the genre's changed signficantly, and we who are not happy with this are never going to go away. (well, I guess we'll die off eventually)

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Originally posted by Alot
I do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?

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This isnt about sandbox, its about bringing more options to an mmo thus making more like a virtual world. I know its easy to say "you want to do more than just kill stuff? you must be a sandbox fanboy lol" But take a look at what you're actually doing in these new AAA mmos. You're literally just doing combat. The options for not doing combat are laughable. Some guy mentioned jumping puzzles in GW2 lol are you serious? And whats the reward for these mini games... stat bonuses for what? combat. Combat is the ultimate means to the ultimate end in all these mmos. I kill stuff so I can kill stuff better. I jump on these platforms to reach an item that helps me kill stuff better. I make food to help me kill stuff better. Keg brawl. Yeah lets take a break from combat and beat each other up. And so many people are eating this up like its the evolution of the genre. It feels like im in the twilight zone sometimes lol. Cant you guys see how pathetic this genre is now?

the good thing about death is that there is always a rebirth.

Originally posted by toddze

To the OP I agree with you, but there is one glimmer of hope. Archeage may deliver on a true MMO of old feel.

Posts like these have been repeated over and over for many years now. I wouldn't put any hopes into any game. Keep an eye on it sure, but trust me, it will most likely let you down lol. We've heard it for sooooooooooooo many games now. I am enjoying TSW right now. People said the same thing about it, but its really just kind of a cool game that will grow old due to exceptionally lame PvP, and the fact they want you to repeat content over and over for end game. 

I see GW2 as the high water mark for this trend. It is the apex of refined mmo combat. Maybe after its been out for a while, people will start to want more from their virtual worlds. Well made combat is a good thing in an mmo. Unfortunately, these days its the only thing. Hopefully that will change soon,.

        I understand what the OP is trying to say, but its like saying "music sucks today" or "movies suck today" yet both are still making more money than ever........

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Originally posted by Theocritus
        I understand what the OP is trying to say, but its like saying "music sucks today" or "movies suck today" yet both are still making more money than ever........

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Alot
I do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?

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This isnt about sandbox, its about bringing more options to an mmo thus making more like a virtual world. I know its easy to say "you want to do more than just kill stuff? you must be a sandbox fanboy lol" But take a look at what you're actually doing in these new AAA mmos. You're literally just doing combat. The options for not doing combat are laughable. Some guy mentioned jumping puzzles in GW2 lol are you serious? And whats the reward for these mini games... stat bonuses for what? combat. Combat is the ultimate means to the ultimate end in all these mmos. I kill stuff so I can kill stuff better. I jump on these platforms to reach an item that helps me kill stuff better. I make food to help me kill stuff better. Keg brawl. Yeah lets take a break from combat and beat each other up. And so many people are eating this up like its the evolution of the genre. It feels like im in the twilight zone sometimes lol. Cant you guys see how pathetic this genre is now?

Uh huh. Sure it is.

The 'popular games don't have my dreamlist of features, implemented exactly the way I want them; so therefor the genre is garbage' aregument is nothing short of ridiculous.

I also don't see why you are so fixated on GW2. We get it, you hate what it stands for, some other bs like that. What does that have to do w/ the genre as whole, lol.

If you want a virtual world, and are honestly sick of combat, then go play second life. Or go play eve, or wait for Repopulation, or play A Tale in the Desert. If you want a multiplayer sim, go play minecraft FFS.

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Originally posted by aesperus

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Alot I do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?

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This isnt about sandbox, its about bringing more options to an mmo thus making more like a virtual world. I know its easy to say "you want to do more than just kill stuff? you must be a sandbox fanboy lol" But take a look at what you're actually doing in these new AAA mmos. You're literally just doing combat. The options for not doing combat are laughable. Some guy mentioned jumping puzzles in GW2 lol are you serious? And whats the reward for these mini games... stat bonuses for what? combat. Combat is the ultimate means to the ultimate end in all these mmos. I kill stuff so I can kill stuff better. I jump on these platforms to reach an item that helps me kill stuff better. I make food to help me kill stuff better. Keg brawl. Yeah lets take a break from combat and beat each other up. And so many people are eating this up like its the evolution of the genre. It feels like im in the twilight zone sometimes lol. Cant you guys see how pathetic this genre is now?

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Uh huh. Sure it is.

The 'popular games don't have my dreamlist of features, implemented exactly the way I want them; so therefor the genre is garbage' aregument is nothing short of ridiculous.

I also don't see why you are so fixated on GW2. We get it, you hate what it stands for, some other bs like that. What does that have to do w/ the genre as whole, lol.

If you want a virtual world, and are honestly sick of combat, then go play second life. Or go play eve, or wait for Repopulation, or play A Tale in the Desert. If you want a multiplayer sim, go play minecraft FFS.

 

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What options are you talking about? The option to kill stuff 100 different ways in 1000 different games? I liked the older options better. Yeah there were less actual games to choose from, but at least each of those games had dozens of different ways to play. MMOs today have 2 maybe 3 ways to play, tops. And no, killing something with a fireball instead of a crossbow is not variety.

So you want the play of old games. Then go play them, they're all still around. Enjoy the 1999 play of Asheron's Call, it's still here. Or go for Meridian 59. Check back in to UO. Or Everquest. Have fun.

Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

I blame Planes of Power for unleashing this madness upon us, but ultimately it's the fault of the consumer.  

Everquest was such an incredible experience of exploration and fun.  PoP came out and everyone was like.... WOOAOHH we don't have to run for 2 hours to get where we want to go (having adventures and fun all along the way).... 2 weeks later:  90% of the population is sitting in the Plane of Kowledge saying "LFG xxxxx" then clicking a stone to get there instantly.  It was a massive hit but at some point MMO gamers decided that they wanted the game's to be all about the destination and not the journey.

We dug our own grave, PoP just gave us the shovel.

If I want to explore and enjoy the RPG elements of a gaming world, I will play a single player game, because MMO's will never be able to offer that again and make money.

In some respects I understand what people are saying......they are wanting gameworlds to feel like WORLDS, not just shallow areas with all the depth of a teaspoon.  Gameworlds which have a certain degree of dependance on what the players are actually doing.  Gameworlds that change in accordance with what players are doing.  Gameworlds which the player can somewhat mould and create their own adventures rather than just following a linear set of quests.

I can certainly appreciate that.

For me, GW2 seems to tick a lot of those boxes, but it is falling down on a couple of points which could make it even better.  Some that spring to mind are the lack of housing, lack of mounts, and more reason to do things other than the dev driven content (fishing, RP events, etc, etc). 

I'm hoping that Anet actually implement the above sometime.

Side note:  I hope they put Jute plants and skinning in the game too.

Originally posted by Foomerang

 

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Originally posted by aesperus

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Originally posted by Foomerang

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Originally posted by Alot I do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?

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This isnt about sandbox, its about bringing more options to an mmo thus making more like a virtual world. I know its easy to say "you want to do more than just kill stuff? you must be a sandbox fanboy lol" But take a look at what you're actually doing in these new AAA mmos. You're literally just doing combat. The options for not doing combat are laughable. Some guy mentioned jumping puzzles in GW2 lol are you serious? And whats the reward for these mini games... stat bonuses for what? combat. Combat is the ultimate means to the ultimate end in all these mmos. I kill stuff so I can kill stuff better. I jump on these platforms to reach an item that helps me kill stuff better. I make food to help me kill stuff better. Keg brawl. Yeah lets take a break from combat and beat each other up. And so many people are eating this up like its the evolution of the genre. It feels like im in the twilight zone sometimes lol. Cant you guys see how pathetic this genre is now?

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Uh huh. Sure it is.

 

The 'popular games don't have my dreamlist of features, implemented exactly the way I want them; so therefor the genre is garbage' aregument is nothing short of ridiculous.

I also don't see why you are so fixated on GW2. We get it, you hate what it stands for, some other bs like that. What does that have to do w/ the genre as whole, lol.

If you want a virtual world, and are honestly sick of combat, then go play second life. Or go play eve, or wait for Repopulation, or play A Tale in the Desert. If you want a multiplayer sim, go play minecraft FFS.

 

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I dont hate gw2. and this isnt about what i personally want out of a specific game. its about what the genre was becoming before it became obsessed with perfecting only combat and instant gratification. with cash shops and esport in tow. im sorry you take it personally when I talk about a genre. its not a bash on your likes. i think the combat and quest presentation in gw2 is great. not sure why you feel so threatened by this thread.

 

I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades?  Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too?   If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names).   Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing?   Fishing?  I agree.  What else?  RP events?  I agree too.

Any other suggestions?

Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion :)

How many times has WoW's ultimate demise been forecast (incorrectly) now?  Half a million threads?

We just got tired of that one and moved on to the industry as a whole.  Same quality of predictive powers though.

End-of-the-World preachers and profiteers.  Some day, one of them will be right!

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Originally posted by Tarka
I understand what you're saying but, what would YOU like to see in these games besides combat upgrades?  Are you talking about being able to get cosmetic non-combat upgrades too?   If so, certain MMO's do have those (I won't name names).   Also, what non-combat activities do you think are missing?   Fishing?  I agree.  What else?  RP events?  I agree too.

Any other suggestions?

Incidentally, I'm asking simply because I'm curious as to what you have in mind, I'm not meaning to attack your opinion :)

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I think about what we as human beings enjoy in real life that takes us out of our normal day to day. The things that we like to watch on tv or listen to or attend in person. Then I would have those translated into games in a virtual world. Games that include competition, cooperation, and individual expression.

Team sports, concerts, plays, races, individual sports, extreme sports, hobby culture like models, horticulture, terrariums, aquariums. Things that allow us to interact with the world around us. Change its initial intent. Urban art, street skating, parkour. Friendly competitions like expos dedicated to home furnishings both indoor and outdoor, fashion shows, laptop battles in a club, dj battles, dance crews. All of this allows for collaboration, competition, and individual expression. The list is practically endless when you stop thinking of mmorpgs as combat and start thinking of a virtual world.

Originally posted by JuJutsu

What options are you talking about? The option to kill stuff 100 different ways in 1000 different games? I liked the older options better. Yeah there were less actual games to choose from, but at least each of those games had dozens of different ways to play. MMOs today have 2 maybe 3 ways to play, tops. And no, killing something with a fireball instead of a crossbow is not variety.

So you want the play of old games. Then go play them, they're all still around. Enjoy the 1999 play of Asheron's Call, it's still here. Or go for Meridian 59. Check back in to UO. Or Everquest. Have fun.

I find it dishearting that people are taking this personal or brushing off the OPs comments as wanting a sandbox or "old" game. That's not what he's asking for.

I'm pretty sure, at this point, it would become pretty obvious that all he was saying was elements of what made these games great and imerssive are what he feels are missing from modern mmos. For him, the devs have created instant "highs" and gratification and so everything feels as if it's fleeting. For a virtual world to feel alive (again to him) there needs to be more than just run, hack,slash, sell, rinse, repeat.

And he's not the only one who feels that way.

Maybe I'm naive. Maybe it is too much to ask for aspects of these games along with updated graphics, and influx of new players along with some of the good progess mmos have gone through.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Nuts now I'm way off topic, but lets face it, you can't argue that the genre's changed signficantly, and we who are not happy with this are never going to go away. (well, I guess we'll die off eventually)

Worry not, there is continous stream of new players that are not satisfied.  Some of them will be for diffrent reasons than we'are but there will be even some that are dissatisfied for same reasons as we're. Some because they want more freedom and 'virtual world' even if they haven't played game like that, but they have enough imagination to see that it could be possible.

Some because there still is sizeable audience in EVE Online, that might get bored of it or might prefer sandbox feeling like it but in 'flesh and bones' character enviroment and not spaceship one + there is small playerbase playing very old titles or low production qualiity ones. 

+ there is sizeable audience playing games like Skyrim, DayZ and few other 'less linear - more (even if  fictional like in Skyrim) sandboxy titles that might want to get that feeling in mmorpg.

So worry not. I read mmorpg forums for a long time and actually this sentiment is growing as time pass not decreasing which should theretically happen heh.   (obviously there is less virtual world fans than themepark or lobby fans don't get me wrong)

For those that don't like but cannot stop reading and responding to it, might want to get some calm pills, some popcorn and get ready for next 10 years for same 'wars' that are today - judging from genre direction :)