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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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  thekid1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/05
Posts: 772

7/26/12 4:02:54 AM#121
Originally posted by Rekindle

op is right but there are 10:1 newbs who prefer the new games over the old ones.  Obviously.  MMO developers are not failing at their goal which is to make money.  Do you think any of them give a rat's ass about imersion or true sandbox?

 

They are looking for the ape that will click on the button in the item shop everything else is just sheep's clothing.  The original game makers had profit in mind but they hadn't refined it to a science.

 

All the modern games have MASS APPEAL which means for every 1 of us old timers who know what we're talking about from the old days there are 10 newbs who simply LOVE the way things are unfolding.

 

The problem is not with the games I'm afraid.  1 you got too old, 2 society frankly, is too stupid on the whole.

But if this is true then why do all (western)  AAA games released lately fail?

WAR, Conan, SWTOR, etc. Besides Vanguard there hasn't been an AAA sandbox mmorpg in years.

And looking at the succes of Minecrat and Dayz, people like and want a game where the players can create the content themselves.

  ArChWind

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/19/11
Posts: 490

7/26/12 4:12:23 AM#122
Originally posted by darker70
Originally posted by QuicklyScott

It would be great if someone came out with a cheap engine that is easy to manipulate so indie developers can really flourish.  MMOs just take to much damn money to make for anyone with some testicular fortitude to really try to innovate.  In the past year some of the best games I've played have been indie developed.  Minecraft would be an example.  Just look at what people have done with that game.  A successful indie game could really change the genre.

I suggest you check out the Hero website and forget all that crap about the Bioware raped version with which they caused there own downfall,also many people fail to realise Hero gives the whole package from support from Idea Fabrik to server side  management and it is also always updateing and adjusting to new technologies.

In a way you are miss leading the poster here because you don’t understand that the engine will deliver exactly what TOR delivered and to top it off even if they have everything and I mean everything handed to them except the game they will still fail because it either takes lots of money or lots and lots of time.
 
Getting people to be motivated to work on a virtual world simulation or MMO is like pulling hens teeth because it requires that nasty four letter word call ‘work’. It is not as fun as a game one can make where they can place a couple mobs and press play button although many relesased indie MMOs are just that. MMO and VR require a lot of planning and design time, a great number of artists, writers, engineers and the list goes on and on here.
 
Teams fall apart fast if there is any problems unless you PAY everyone to like and work on it and the core team will suffer loss of personal time to the nth degree which makes passion for developing commercial released content less appealing. It is one of the reasons that MANY a team over the last decade, including open source, has moved on to the fast turn around developing of ‘small’ Facebook games and or IPhone games.
 
Again if a MMO is so easy to make and cheap, why is repop asking for donations with kickstarter? Is it not because they don’t have the time to build the content and people are not working on it for free? (see above) Why not point the real answers to the poster. Great for them that they got kickstarted but even with $1,000,000 of additional content most will burn it in a matter of days and be bored to death because there will be nothing to do unless the team has put in extreme time sinks to deter the ending. I do wish them well and hope they can do better than DF or MO.
 
Another thing is that Hero Engine can NOT build virtual worlds with six degrees of freedom unless they are packed into very small simulation areas. These areas need to be extremely small because as you enter them the simulations have to load as well as the objects. If the areas are larger than a half kilometer squared there will be enormous lagg while the player crosses the world area.
 
This means that having areas large and spread out is not possible because you have no room to put the FOV greater than, at most 500 meters. The engine is not capable of building gridded worlds unless these worlds are VERY small because they will require again the 500 meters of simulation per area and you have to hand connect them together which takes enormous amounts of time. They can’t be entirely free of seams so there is holes in the terrain in places. Even repop developers suggested that I build my world with cannons and impassable barriers so that the player would not be able to notice it. This is NOT a true simulated world!
 
Sorry, but this engine will never produce a real virtual world unless it has millions of dollars of development support for the team using it and further more the release will end up being another ‘running the gauntlet’ type game and not a simulation because that is what sells.
  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3545

7/26/12 4:48:41 AM#123
Originally posted by Foomerang

 

I want it to continue in the direction it was heading 9 years ago. This isnt some unimaginable dream. It was taking shape in mmos like FFXI, SWG and AC and it has all but vanished. MMOrpgs are barely a shadow of what they once were. We have refined multiplayer action games. That is the definition of an mmorpg these days. Its so bad that people cant even grasp the concept of doing something else in an mmo anymore besides bashing stuff with a sword.

The 3 gameas you just listed, how commercially successful are they compared to other games?

I don't see much music in the top10 sales chart that I like, that doesn't mean the music industry is dead.

This genre might be dead to you but for me, it is more exciting than ever before. :)

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  rissies

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 162

7/26/12 5:00:02 AM#124

Sounds more like it's dead...

 

...in your heart.

  MumboJumbo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3141

Veni, Vidi, Converti

7/26/12 5:22:45 AM#125

Perhaps this thread is better entitled, This genre is "UNdead"? 

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

7/26/12 5:33:07 AM#126

Nowadays mmo's and mmorpg's aside from few very niche and poor production quality or few incredibly specific titles are closer to lobby co-op games and console games than to what mmorpg's originally were.

 

So lobby co-op multiplayer online games with few basic technical mmo features are alive.

 

Virtual worlds - what orginally was mmorpg's differentiation and unique feature, also embraced to some degree by early themeparks are atm dead.

 

Sorry state of affairs.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

7/26/12 5:33:08 AM#127
Originally posted by MumboJumbo

Perhaps this thread is better entitled, This genre is "UNdead"? 

Naw, that's the complaining.  It rises from the grave and shuffles about mindlessly, moaning.

Always makes for a popular topic, anyway.

*ahem* "Dooooooommm--and brains."

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Alot

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/11
Posts: 1984

Minister of Propaganda for GW2 Fascist-Capitalist Party

7/26/12 5:40:38 AM#128

I do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7147

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/26/12 5:51:07 AM#129

The genre is going just fine.

We have FFA open world games sitting alongside well built themeparks. We have hybrids that embrace both. The future looks equally bright with games like TES, B&S, Pathfinder, and AA offering yet more choice to the mix.

This lack of diversification is really a myth. It's just lazy fashionable thinking.

 

I agree with the point about cash shops though... they are not good for the 'game' part of the hobby at all. If anything has the ability to kill the genre in the long term it is this cynical carpet bagging of the hobby in the name of pure greed.

They are really the only issue I have with the direction of the genre as a whole though, aside from an over reliance on PvP as cheap filler content, but then I enjoy both sandbox and themepark play as long as they are done well.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18996

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

7/26/12 5:52:14 AM#130
Originally posted by Quirhid

This is why we need a sticky thread from this topic so we don't need to see new threads pop up.

Because you are unable to control yourself from looking at them?

Sticky threads are the worst idea this forum has, totally kills discussion of topics that people like myself wish to discuss.

If you don't like them, don't read and respond to them. 

This genre has drastically changed from what it was previously, no denying that regardless how you slice it.

Whether that is a good or bad thing is of course entirely based on your personal preferences, and from a developer perspective I guess they're happy and making enough money to keep churning the titles out.

We'll not see a return to the days of yore, the masses invaded the space that transformed MMO's from a hobbyist pursuit to a mass market juggernaut.

For better or worse.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  fenistil

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 3016

7/26/12 5:57:47 AM#131
Originally posted by Alot

I do hope that I'm not the only person amused by the lamenting of Sandbox fanboys?

Stash some popcorn then because I see in my crysal ball that those threads will keep pooping for years and years. Additionally actually seeing genre changing even more agressively towards lobby, railed gameplay and no virtual world mmorpg's with decent production quality getting released - lamenting and qq'ing will propably increase rather than decerease.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/26/12 6:38:27 AM#132
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Quirhid

This is why we need a sticky thread from this topic so we don't need to see new threads pop up.

Because you are unable to control yourself from looking at them?

Sticky threads are the worst idea this forum has, totally kills discussion of topics that people like myself wish to discuss.

If you don't like them, don't read and respond to them. 

This genre has drastically changed from what it was previously, no denying that regardless how you slice it.

Whether that is a good or bad thing is of course entirely based on your personal preferences, and from a developer perspective I guess they're happy and making enough money to keep churning the titles out.

We'll not see a return to the days of yore, the masses invaded the space that transformed MMO's from a hobbyist pursuit to a mass market juggernaut.

For better or worse.

Does anything good come from these threads? Frustrated posters come to vent and bash the current breed of games and gamers. There's a reason why you don't "open up" (or complain) in the army: it brings down morale and nobody really gives a fuck what your problem is.

It would be fine if they'd start a thread just now and again (like "come back to Vanguard" or "If you're a guy playing a girl, you're a homo" -threads), but how it is brought up almost everyday, and if not in a new thread then they turn to it in other threads. They have nothing to say they just want wallow in their misery. Same posters over and over - It is really depressing even if I do not agree with them.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Roenick

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 14

7/26/12 8:43:35 AM#133

I suppose people start these threads for two reasons: 1) Reaffirmation that there is still a decent size chuck of the community that does not like/believe in the direction the genre is going  2)  Hope that a deveoper hears their voices and realize that there is still a market for the type of game (that some) people are hoping for.

I'm pretty sure you can chose to ignore these threads even if they do pop everyday by not clicking them, but for the rest of us we take (small) comfort in knowing we are not alone.

 

 

  Warmaker

Novice Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 2233

7/26/12 9:07:28 AM#134

Theres more people playing MMORPGs and money being made in this genre than what was imagined when UO and EQ came out.

That said, despite all this, the heart of MMORPGs, their options in how to play, their gameplay, is rotten to the core.

I find it hilariuos also to hear people comlain about the grind of old school MMORPGs but are fine with doing new "endgame" content that makes you repeat the same activity over, and over, and over, and over again to garner points to unlock something.

"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)

  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

7/26/12 9:24:06 AM#135

If you want something done right the Developer and the publisher need to push the game like TSW was. just by spending an hour playing TSW you will realize they designed that game for a specific crowd. TSW will never have WoW numbers, but they will have a dedicated community which will keep the game afloat.

 

This needs to be done Sandbox games, if not they wont succeed. Face of Mankind had Penelties for killing someone at random. they had User Player police that could arrest you and place you in prison for a time reletive to the amount of laws you broke. this is a great system. Sadly enough the people who ran the politics generally gave up because people wanted war. i ran a Department of Foriegn Relations, and for the first 4 months of running it, it went well i stopped multiple wars. but when everyday your either being attacked for no reason or your team mates decide to run into a strip mall shooting everything that moves, you lose the ability to keep things under wraps.

 

as cheesy as it sounds, i would rather people take a test to be able to play the game. Give a person an AK they want to run around shooting it. you tell them not to shoot it unless they have to, they will follow your orders until your out of sight. its just how it is. Eve is lucky enough that people get bored before hitting the actual Sandbox area so most of the casual gamers leave.

 

actually that may be the solution. PvE areas and Sandbox areas. Have it be a requirement to go though the PvE area to get to the sandbox unless you know what your doing. Because as it stands, in a pure Sandbox world all we get is Unreal Tournament.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Vesavius

Old School

Joined: 3/08/04
Posts: 7147

Players come for the game, but they stay for the people- Most Devs have forgotten this.

7/26/12 9:42:40 AM#136
Originally posted by Quirhid

Does anything good come from these threads? Frustrated posters come to vent and bash the current breed of games and gamers.

 

Well, I actually posted a postive reply in the thread about the direction of the genre and how it's ok for me.

But you choose to not encourage a positive discussion and ignored that and instead chose to post your witty 'doom and gloom' pic to bait the moaners.

I guess some folks like to complain about games, and others like to complain about other posters.

 

If you want a better forum start responding to the type of posts you want to see more of is my advice. If you just give attention to the negatives you are really no better then they.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

7/26/12 12:47:20 PM#137
Originally posted by Vesavius
Originally posted by Quirhid

Does anything good come from these threads? Frustrated posters come to vent and bash the current breed of games and gamers.

 

Well, I actually posted a postive reply in the thread about the direction of the genre and how it's ok for me.

But you choose to not encourage a positive discussion and ignored that and instead chose to post your witty 'doom and gloom' pic to bait the moaners.

I guess some folks like to complain about games, and others like to complain about other posters.

 

If you want a better forum start responding to the type of posts you want to see more of is my advice. If you just give attention to the negatives you are really no better then they.

Hell, I've tried. It doesn't work. And like I've already said it is not contained within these threads. Mods should lock these threads like they do with themepark vs. sandbox threads and refer to one sticky thread where people can vent as much as they want.

This bashing (the games, the players) seems to be partly mod approved because it continues on from thread to thread. Since you enjoy the, in their mind, "failed MMOs" you must be dim-witted or othewise ignorant. The posters regularly do not offer any more explanation. It is ridiculous. Terms like "instant gratification-crowd" and such are similar to stereotypes like "women can't drive", "blondes are stupid", "catholic priests are pedophiles", "americans are fat" etc. and use of such stereotypes should be discouraged.

I demand a comment from the admins. Not too long ago they locked my thread, without comment, in which I included a poll if a dedicated sticky thread for all this venting should be created.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/26/12 12:57:36 PM#138
Originally posted by Roenick

 

As a friend said to me today. "Everything has turned into run here, kill big groups of mobs (what happened to single pulls?), run there, kill some more big groups of mobs, run somewhere else, etc. with a bunch of strangers the game finds for you to play with...  I miss spending hours in groups with people you know..."

He has no friends? Play with some RL friends.

Plus, play once with a stranger, the second time is someone you know.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/26/12 12:59:10 PM#139
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Does anything good come from these threads? Frustrated posters come to vent and bash the current breed of games and gamers. There's a reason why you don't "open up" (or complain) in the army: it brings down morale and nobody really gives a fuck what your problem is.

Yes, they are entertaining.

It is not like a thread will change the industry.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/26/12 1:00:28 PM#140
Originally posted by QuicklyScott
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.

Oh, what terrible problems, those really are crippling modern MMOs.........

Crippling? You call features that players want "crippling"? LOL.

In fact, if it is not for LFR, i won't even come back to WOW. Those are must-have features now.

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