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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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  Jjix

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 128

8/17/12 8:43:06 AM#821
Originally posted by Foomerang

Part of me thinks the virtual world game design was too far ahead of its time. Sort of like back in the day when hobbyists would mix and match circuit boards to make digital music. It was absolutely brilliant, but it took decades for it to catch on in the mainstream.

It will come back. I don't think the golden age of mmorpgs has happened yet. I think we got a taste of what it could be. And now we wait for capitalism and mass marketing to exhaust all of its options. Eventually, it will come back around. All it takes is that one game to come along and change the genre.

 

EXACTLY!!!

It isn't that I want to go back to those old games, it is that there was something about that period that felt MORE modern than the current one, but that "something" wasn't ever fully actualized, it was more like the kernel of truth about this genre that we expected would only become "more and more" with each new game. Instead, the truth seems to have been buried away, hidden like a dark secret no one wants to admit was ever there. The graphics have gotten better, the action has improved with each new game, the externals have all continued to evolve . . . but the soul is missing. (And just the fact that champions of the current model here on this forum are simultaneously advocating it and yawning about it, indifferent to whether the genre even survives, is proof enough that the current model lacks soul. I completely agree with them! If we are talking about the current age of MMOs, I too think they are boring enough that their demise won't be unwelcomed. But I don't think anyone who tasted that kernel of truth of the old age would ever feel such indifference.)

 

Virtual realities aren't here yet, not the kind like in the Matrix or Total Recall. Yet -- barring nuclear disaster or an astroid -- it seems inevitable that they will become reality one day. MMOs were, I think, the first very earliest model of this future phenomena, like the telegraph was an early model of the internet. At the time of the early MMOs many movies were being made about the idea of virtual realities, it was in the consciousness of my generation and this was expressed in our approach to gaming. But the mainstream movies that are successful today seem all nostalgic, they are all copies of something from the past (mostly rehashed superheroes). In the so-called "old days" we dreamed about the future, the world seemed bright and full of possibilities. Gaming, for us, was the future. Today, though some of us are still dreaming, the majority seemed fixated on how miserable everything is, how the future is nothing but apocalypse, and how the past was better. Today, gaming is no longer a bright circle of possibility, it is a symbol of everything that is wrong with humanity. In some ways by talking about the past as being better in MMO gaming we sound like we are participating in this same consciousness, but in fact it is just the opposite, we are lamenting what this pessimistic consciousness has done to gaming.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/17/12 11:50:28 AM#822
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Foomerang 1. What may be considered "fun" for you could sometimes be considered breaking the roc here so we should all be mindful. Point taken. But this is an internet forum, and unless i am using abusive language, i am entitled to raise whatever point i wish to riase. 2. If you want to discuss the importance of existing features in mmos, this is probably the wrong thread to do so. Id suggest making your own. This thread is about including virtual world features into the mix, not to get rid of the current style. That has been my point since the beginning. There have been some good discussions here regarding how to make older game mechanics more interesting or how to bring back forgotten aspects of this genre. Coming in here and constantly saying "I dont like that, I like the way it is now" is really kind of missing the point of the discussion and again, comes close to breaking the roc concerning this thread. It is not like i do not give reasons of why i do not like some of the old mechanics. (The famous example is, of course, that i think traveling between point A to B, for multiple times, becomes bornig.) There *is* discussion about how to mitigate that. In fact, while antagonistic, the discussion did bring out arguments of why some of the mechanics can become interesting (at least to some). While it is often common to assume the other guy "did not get the point", you are missing the point (pun intended) that he is probably try to raise a different point. And i think you are mistaken that this thread is about improvement VW. This thread is about proclaiming and ranting on "the genre is dead" and why some of you hate modern MMOs. It is only fair game that the opposite opinion is aired. If you made a thread in order to discuss how LFG could be made better, I wouldn't come in and say "I don't like LFG" over and over. I wouldn't start arguments with other posters because its "fun". Especially if it derailed the point of the thread. hahahah .. really? My take is that many will come in a thread like that (may be not you) and say "LFD is the downfall of MMO" or "LFD games is not true MMO". Just asking for you consideration on that here. Thank you :) You are civil, and i appreciate that, which is more than how many behave here. The only reciprocity i can offer, however, is to remain civil (language-wise). Thank you :)
 

Fair enough. Thank you :)

 

I like people that have opposite views but are civil. Just an off topic question .. is there something wrong with your browser? Your quote of my post became a wall of text with no formatting. You may want to check into that.

 

  User Deleted
8/17/12 11:56:22 AM#823
Originally posted by Jjix
Originally posted by Foomerang

Part of me thinks the virtual world game design was too far ahead of its time. Sort of like back in the day when hobbyists would mix and match circuit boards to make digital music. It was absolutely brilliant, but it took decades for it to catch on in the mainstream.

It will come back. I don't think the golden age of mmorpgs has happened yet. I think we got a taste of what it could be. And now we wait for capitalism and mass marketing to exhaust all of its options. Eventually, it will come back around. All it takes is that one game to come along and change the genre.

 

EXACTLY!!!

It isn't that I want to go back to those old games, it is that there was something about that period that felt MORE modern than the current one, but that "something" wasn't ever fully actualized, it was more like the kernel of truth about this genre that we expected would only become "more and more" with each new game. Instead, the truth seems to have been buried away, hidden like a dark secret no one wants to admit was ever there. The graphics have gotten better, the action has improved with each new game, the externals have all continued to evolve . . . but the soul is missing. (And just the fact that champions of the current model here on this forum are simultaneously advocating it and yawning about it, indifferent to whether the genre even survives, is proof enough that the current model lacks soul. I completely agree with them! If we are talking about the current age of MMOs, I too think they are boring enough that their demise won't be unwelcomed. But I don't think anyone who tasted that kernel of truth of the old age would ever feel such indifference.)

 

Virtual realities aren't here yet, not the kind like in the Matrix or Total Recall. Yet -- barring nuclear disaster or an astroid -- it seems inevitable that they will become reality one day. MMOs were, I think, the first very earliest model of this future phenomena, like the telegraph was an early model of the internet. At the time of the early MMOs many movies were being made about the idea of virtual realities, it was in the consciousness of my generation and this was expressed in our approach to gaming. But the mainstream movies that are successful today seem all nostalgic, they are all copies of something from the past (mostly rehashed superheroes). In the so-called "old days" we dreamed about the future, the world seemed bright and full of possibilities. Gaming, for us, was the future. Today, though some of us are still dreaming, the majority seemed fixated on how miserable everything is, how the future is nothing but apocalypse, and how the past was better. Today, gaming is no longer a bright circle of possibility, it is a symbol of everything that is wrong with humanity. In some ways by talking about the past as being better in MMO gaming we sound like we are participating in this same consciousness, but in fact it is just the opposite, we are lamenting what this pessimistic consciousness has done to gaming.

 

While I agree with the overall sentiment of your post, Virtual Reality != Virtual World.  We've had Virtual Worlds before.  They were before everything was sharded, instanced, and phased.  I like shiny graphics too, but not when they come at the expense of performance and make all the sharding, instancing, and phasing required to be playable.  A few companies are trying to bring back the one big seemless world idea and I applaud that.

As to Virtual Reality, I liken that to 3D technology.  As nice as it will eventually be, we aren't close to those technologies yet.  That won't stop some marketing team from saying they accomplished it and trying to sell it.  We need a technology jump or two to reach those truly.  I want the real deal, not a supposed illusion of it that is basically oversold in it's greatness when it should be sold as a new technology to compliment what they had.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/17/12 11:57:17 AM#824
Originally posted by Jjix

So, here is some advice -- embrace change or get left behind with a bad case of 'old people's disease' that leaves you bitter and angry.   In balance, all of computer gaming is better than it was in the 'old days.'   Unless, of course, you really do think monochrome ASCII graphics and text adventures were 'the thing.'

 

From my point of view, people like yourself championing the current model are the one's stuck in the "good old days" because you are resistent to change. That is why you don't want to hear any suggestions over how games could be better.

But change is coming. The WoW generation ended with the death of SWTOR, this is a time for change, and during such times it is of vital importance that players participate in this evolution through conversation. Whining about people who feel the WoW generation of games let us down is missing the point that it is precisely this WoW fatigue that is going to continue to propel the modernization of gaming. Players who are happy with themepark design are going to become old farts very soon.

Well, all industries are always changing. The cliche "the only constant is change" is a cliche for a reason.

However, i doubt the direction of change is pointing at where you will like. Sure TOR is not a big success, but it still sold north of 2M copies. That, i am sure, did not go unnotice by devs.

Secondly, i would argue that the failure of TOR is because it is TOO virtual world like. If it cut out its virtual world, make it a co-op ARPG, it will be a lot more successful. In other words, a KOTOR 3, with multiplayer (and possibly trading) will be better than a TOR MMO.

I do not think the trend of MMOs becoming more like co-op action RPG will change. There is obviously a huge market of this type of games. D3, even with all its problems, and less longevity compared to D2, sold a whopping 10M copies (8.8 if you discount annual pass players). After GW2, one of the next big AAA MMO, Marvel Heroes (with a BIG licence no less) is going this direction. Now i am not discounting features and ideas like public quests, or auto-grouping idea in GW2. But the point is ... getting into co-op group combat fast without hassle of lfg is clearly a direction to go.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/17/12 12:06:45 PM#825
Originally posted by Foomerang

Part of me thinks the virtual world game design was too far ahead of its time. Sort of like back in the day when hobbyists would mix and match circuit boards to make digital music. It was absolutely brilliant, but it took decades for it to catch on in the mainstream.

It will come back. I don't think the golden age of mmorpgs has happened yet. I think we got a taste of what it could be. And now we wait for capitalism and mass marketing to exhaust all of its options. Eventually, it will come back around. All it takes is that one game to come along and change the genre.

I have a feeling when that game finally comes, it wont have levels or quests or gear with stats. It wont have players killing each other and stealing loot. It wont have raids or ladder systems or cash shops. It will be something that gives a new perspective on virtual worlds and mmorpgs.

I totally disagree. The virtual world concept is as old as Ultima itself. At that time of U4, Origin's tagline is "We Build Worlds" .. abate only SP worlds.

While it sounds good, i highly doubt having full VW featuers is that entertaining. Surely having some of it does not hurt, but i do not think VW features is the reason why games are entertaining. Diablo 1 is the best example. It strips out everything else and focus on 2 and only 2 things: combat & progression. (Yeah it has a thin story to add atmosphere, but no one really notices or care about it very much). I think VW is the same ... add atmosphere, but is not a show-stopper for most.

I have no doubt there is a small minority of players who would like to live a second life. But how many players do you think really want to have meetings about guilds, or whatever political organization in the game, AFTER their day job? Instead of jumping in, kill some mobs in interesting ways, and get a good shiny reward with cool animation?

 

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4639

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  8/17/12 7:50:41 PM#826


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Foomerang Part of me thinks the virtual world game design was too far ahead of its time. Sort of like back in the day when hobbyists would mix and match circuit boards to make digital music. It was absolutely brilliant, but it took decades for it to catch on in the mainstream. It will come back. I don't think the golden age of mmorpgs has happened yet. I think we got a taste of what it could be. And now we wait for capitalism and mass marketing to exhaust all of its options. Eventually, it will come back around. All it takes is that one game to come along and change the genre. I have a feeling when that game finally comes, it wont have levels or quests or gear with stats. It wont have players killing each other and stealing loot. It wont have raids or ladder systems or cash shops. It will be something that gives a new perspective on virtual worlds and mmorpgs.
I totally disagree. The virtual world concept is as old as Ultima itself. At that time of U4, Origin's tagline is "We Build Worlds" .. abate only SP worlds.

While it sounds good, i highly doubt having full VW featuers is that entertaining. Surely having some of it does not hurt, but i do not think VW features is the reason why games are entertaining. Diablo 1 is the best example. It strips out everything else and focus on 2 and only 2 things: combat & progression. (Yeah it has a thin story to add atmosphere, but no one really notices or care about it very much). I think VW is the same ... add atmosphere, but is not a show-stopper for most.

I have no doubt there is a small minority of players who would like to live a second life. But how many players do you think really want to have meetings about guilds, or whatever political organization in the game, AFTER their day job? Instead of jumping in, kill some mobs in interesting ways, and get a good shiny reward with cool animation?

 


I have an idea for a virtual world mmorpg. Maybe I'll put it in a blog someday. And it doesn't have any of that boring stuff you're talking about hehe.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  User Deleted
8/17/12 10:26:15 PM#827
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Jjix

So, here is some advice -- embrace change or get left behind with a bad case of 'old people's disease' that leaves you bitter and angry.   In balance, all of computer gaming is better than it was in the 'old days.'   Unless, of course, you really do think monochrome ASCII graphics and text adventures were 'the thing.'

 

From my point of view, people like yourself championing the current model are the one's stuck in the "good old days" because you are resistent to change. That is why you don't want to hear any suggestions over how games could be better.

But change is coming. The WoW generation ended with the death of SWTOR, this is a time for change, and during such times it is of vital importance that players participate in this evolution through conversation. Whining about people who feel the WoW generation of games let us down is missing the point that it is precisely this WoW fatigue that is going to continue to propel the modernization of gaming. Players who are happy with themepark design are going to become old farts very soon.

Well, all industries are always changing. The cliche "the only constant is change" is a cliche for a reason.

However, i doubt the direction of change is pointing at where you will like. Sure TOR is not a big success, but it still sold north of 2M copies. That, i am sure, did not go unnotice by devs.

Secondly, i would argue that the failure of TOR is because it is TOO virtual world like. If it cut out its virtual world, make it a co-op ARPG, it will be a lot more successful. In other words, a KOTOR 3, with multiplayer (and possibly trading) will be better than a TOR MMO.

I do not think the trend of MMOs becoming more like co-op action RPG will change. There is obviously a huge market of this type of games. D3, even with all its problems, and less longevity compared to D2, sold a whopping 10M copies (8.8 if you discount annual pass players). After GW2, one of the next big AAA MMO, Marvel Heroes (with a BIG licence no less) is going this direction. Now i am not discounting features and ideas like public quests, or auto-grouping idea in GW2. But the point is ... getting into co-op group combat fast without hassle of lfg is clearly a direction to go.

 

The short life span and fleeing subs says that it is not a success.  It hasn't made what they spent on it.

SWTOR is already a co-op lobby game.  That's all there is for end game.  And the leveling experience is a story on rails game that is mostly single player.  You get companions to fill the gaps in your character's role.  You can solo a lot of group missions.   Everything is so separate and load screen loaded.  Even the very build of fleet seemed like it was built to avoid people loitering except the bar in the middle.  Which no one used.  Fleet was also population instanced to keep the number of people in an area down.  SWTOR is definitely not a virtual world.

  Jjix

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 128

8/18/12 7:37:09 AM#828
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Foomerang

Part of me thinks the virtual world game design was too far ahead of its time. Sort of like back in the day when hobbyists would mix and match circuit boards to make digital music. It was absolutely brilliant, but it took decades for it to catch on in the mainstream.

It will come back. I don't think the golden age of mmorpgs has happened yet. I think we got a taste of what it could be. And now we wait for capitalism and mass marketing to exhaust all of its options. Eventually, it will come back around. All it takes is that one game to come along and change the genre.

I have a feeling when that game finally comes, it wont have levels or quests or gear with stats. It wont have players killing each other and stealing loot. It wont have raids or ladder systems or cash shops. It will be something that gives a new perspective on virtual worlds and mmorpgs.

I totally disagree. The virtual world concept is as old as Ultima itself. At that time of U4, Origin's tagline is "We Build Worlds" .. abate only SP worlds.

While it sounds good, i highly doubt having full VW featuers is that entertaining. Surely having some of it does not hurt, but i do not think VW features is the reason why games are entertaining. Diablo 1 is the best example. It strips out everything else and focus on 2 and only 2 things: combat & progression. (Yeah it has a thin story to add atmosphere, but no one really notices or care about it very much). I think VW is the same ... add atmosphere, but is not a show-stopper for most.

I have no doubt there is a small minority of players who would like to live a second life. But how many players do you think really want to have meetings about guilds, or whatever political organization in the game, AFTER their day job? Instead of jumping in, kill some mobs in interesting ways, and get a good shiny reward with cool animation?

 

You are essentially arguing that classical music shouldn't exist because most people prefer rock . . . and that the classical music that does exist should be made to sound more like rock.

 

The world doesn't have to be ubiquitous and everything the same, there can be variety and genres. That is why those of us that love this genre -- that aren't interested in seeing it simply disappear or morph into something that its not -- want to discuss how best approach to making great MMOs for MMO lovers, not for the masses. Pop music is for the masses, we aren't talking about Pop music, we are talking about classical music.

 

In many ways the primary characteristic of the last decade was this standard "how can we make one game that will appeal to everyone" . . . one game to rule them all, a MMO that will appeal to the masses. And you are right, if you want a MMO to appeal to the lowest common denominator it needs to be dumbed down. But what seems to be happening now days is that there are so many games they can't even give them away for free, players just don't have time to play all of the choices out there. Which means, I think, that increasingly this idea of one game to appeal to everyone is giving way to more niche games.

 

Once you get into niche, then the focus over how to make a good game leans away from this "universal standard" of what the masses want, toward a standard that focuses on what players of a certain demographic want. What classical music lovers want is not to listen to stuff that sounds like rock.

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/18/12 11:45:56 AM#829
Originally posted by paroxysm

 

The short life span and fleeing subs says that it is not a success.  It hasn't made what they spent on it.

SWTOR is already a co-op lobby game.  That's all there is for end game.  And the leveling experience is a story on rails game that is mostly single player.  You get companions to fill the gaps in your character's role.  You can solo a lot of group missions.   Everything is so separate and load screen loaded.  Even the very build of fleet seemed like it was built to avoid people loitering except the bar in the middle.  Which no one used.  Fleet was also population instanced to keep the number of people in an area down.  SWTOR is definitely not a virtual world.

No, TOR is not a success ... but it is certainly NOT a co-op lobby game. For example, when it was released, it does NOT even had a LFG function, which many asked for. Secondly, it does not change the "world" when one progresses in quests, like in D3.

It will  be a much better game, and a success if they do a proper ARPG instead. Why? a) they won't be wasting a ton of work making the world, and b) It would be a better gaming experience. These "story only" instances is jarring. There are too much backtracking. A proper SP RPG (i.e. you can port the person into a next chapter starting point without running back & forth, and you can change his "personal" world around) with multiplayer support (like D3, inviting others into your game) will be better.

Lastly, it sold 2M boxes in the first month. The only reason it is not a financial success is because of the huge investment to make it a MMO. If they do a proper RPG with a smaller scale, they would be a big success.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/18/12 11:54:09 AM#830
Originally posted by Jjix
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Foomerang

Part of me thinks the virtual world game design was too far ahead of its time. Sort of like back in the day when hobbyists would mix and match circuit boards to make digital music. It was absolutely brilliant, but it took decades for it to catch on in the mainstream.

It will come back. I don't think the golden age of mmorpgs has happened yet. I think we got a taste of what it could be. And now we wait for capitalism and mass marketing to exhaust all of its options. Eventually, it will come back around. All it takes is that one game to come along and change the genre.

I have a feeling when that game finally comes, it wont have levels or quests or gear with stats. It wont have players killing each other and stealing loot. It wont have raids or ladder systems or cash shops. It will be something that gives a new perspective on virtual worlds and mmorpgs.

I totally disagree. The virtual world concept is as old as Ultima itself. At that time of U4, Origin's tagline is "We Build Worlds" .. abate only SP worlds.

While it sounds good, i highly doubt having full VW featuers is that entertaining. Surely having some of it does not hurt, but i do not think VW features is the reason why games are entertaining. Diablo 1 is the best example. It strips out everything else and focus on 2 and only 2 things: combat & progression. (Yeah it has a thin story to add atmosphere, but no one really notices or care about it very much). I think VW is the same ... add atmosphere, but is not a show-stopper for most.

I have no doubt there is a small minority of players who would like to live a second life. But how many players do you think really want to have meetings about guilds, or whatever political organization in the game, AFTER their day job? Instead of jumping in, kill some mobs in interesting ways, and get a good shiny reward with cool animation?

 

You are essentially arguing that classical music shouldn't exist because most people prefer rock . . . and that the classical music that does exist should be made to sound more like rock.

No. I am arguing the industry should invest LESS on classical music than rock, which is exactly what happened today.  I never said virtual world game should disappear. In fact, didn't i say "there is a small minority of players who would like to live a second life"?

The world doesn't have to be ubiquitous and everything the same, there can be variety and genres. That is why those of us that love this genre -- that aren't interested in seeing it simply disappear or morph into something that its not -- want to discuss how best approach to making great MMOs for MMO lovers, not for the masses. Pop music is for the masses, we aren't talking about Pop music, we are talking about classical music.

No. It does not have to be .. and it is not. But at the same time, expected AAA dev for a very minority customer segment is wishful thinking. In fact, graphical adventure is making a comeback in indie games. However, you wouldn't not expected graphical point & click adventure to be AAA again like back in the King Quest days, do you?

In many ways the primary characteristic of the last decade was this standard "how can we make one game that will appeal to everyone" . . . one game to rule them all, a MMO that will appeal to the masses. And you are right, if you want a MMO to appeal to the lowest common denominator it needs to be dumbed down. But what seems to be happening now days is that there are so many games they can't even give them away for free, players just don't have time to play all of the choices out there. Which means, I think, that increasingly this idea of one game to appeal to everyone is giving way to more niche games.

"dumb down" how elitist? Don't think making a map on a graphical paper is a big deal. I did that back in the might & magic days just because the technology was not there. It is a trivial and boring exercise. Long travel and boat rides are not more "intelligence". People here confuse assessible with dumbing down.

 

Once you get into niche, then the focus over how to make a good game leans away from this "universal standard" of what the masses want, toward a standard that focuses on what players of a certain demographic want. What classical music lovers want is not to listen to stuff that sounds like rock.

 Well the kind of investment you can make depends on how big the niche is, right? What is a realistic investment for your niche? Is it enough to make a virtual world? Being indie & niche is not the solution for everything. Music is dirt cheap to produce. That is why you have so many variations. Anyone with a band and a garage can produce for his/her niche.

Can you do it for MMO games when you need programmers, art, music, servers and so on ...

I am not arguing that there should be none, i am just laying out reality.

 

 

  User Deleted
8/18/12 1:00:39 PM#831
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by paroxysm

 

The short life span and fleeing subs says that it is not a success.  It hasn't made what they spent on it.

SWTOR is already a co-op lobby game.  That's all there is for end game.  And the leveling experience is a story on rails game that is mostly single player.  You get companions to fill the gaps in your character's role.  You can solo a lot of group missions.   Everything is so separate and load screen loaded.  Even the very build of fleet seemed like it was built to avoid people loitering except the bar in the middle.  Which no one used.  Fleet was also population instanced to keep the number of people in an area down.  SWTOR is definitely not a virtual world.

No, TOR is not a success ... but it is certainly NOT a co-op lobby game. For example, when it was released, it does NOT even had a LFG function, which many asked for. Secondly, it does not change the "world" when one progresses in quests, like in D3.

It will  be a much better game, and a success if they do a proper ARPG instead. Why? a) they won't be wasting a ton of work making the world, and b) It would be a better gaming experience. These "story only" instances is jarring. There are too much backtracking. A proper SP RPG (i.e. you can port the person into a next chapter starting point without running back & forth, and you can change his "personal" world around) with multiplayer support (like D3, inviting others into your game) will be better.

Lastly, it sold 2M boxes in the first month. The only reason it is not a financial success is because of the huge investment to make it a MMO. If they do a proper RPG with a smaller scale, they would be a big success.

Even without LFG, it's still a co-op lobby game to me in that people at end game sit around to get in groups to do raids/dungeons/whatever or sit in a queue to play in instanced pvp battlegrounds.  Not much else to do really.  Dailies, but those get old real quick.  And, they don't even have the draw of dailies that some other games have.  As little as that is and as much of a grind as it usually is.

I would agree the style of game they built would have been better sold as an ARPG instead of an MMO.  It would have made a better single player game than an MMO.  But, they wanted and tried to make an MMO.  They sold it as an MMO.  It's a sad excuse for an MMO.  You see SWTOR as a trend of the way things are going.  I say it's a good example of what happens when you sell something as something that it is not.  SWTOR is in the news a lot.  The current financial condition is being watched by a lot of people.  People that are asking "what went wrong".  So, do you think it reinforces the direction or throws up a red flag?.  Depends on who you ask.  Some still say the whole thing was just a subscription problem. 

There was and still is a lot wrong with SWTOR.   I just hope when the dust finally settles some good lessons are learned and not just blamed on something superficial.

  User Deleted
8/18/12 1:39:10 PM#832
OP is right to the fullest.
  Jjix

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 128

8/19/12 10:07:33 AM#833

You are essentially arguing that classical music shouldn't exist because most people prefer rock . . . and that the classical music that does exist should be made to sound more like rock.

No. I am arguing the industry should invest LESS on classical music than rock, which is exactly what happened today.  I never said virtual world game should disappear. In fact, didn't i say "there is a small minority of players who would like to live a second life"?

The world doesn't have to be ubiquitous and everything the same, there can be variety and genres. That is why those of us that love this genre -- that aren't interested in seeing it simply disappear or morph into something that its not -- want to discuss how best approach to making great MMOs for MMO lovers, not for the masses. Pop music is for the masses, we aren't talking about Pop music, we are talking about classical music.

No. It does not have to be .. and it is not. But at the same time, expected AAA dev for a very minority customer segment is wishful thinking. In fact, graphical adventure is making a comeback in indie games. However, you wouldn't not expected graphical point & click adventure to be AAA again like back in the King Quest days, do you?

In many ways the primary characteristic of the last decade was this standard "how can we make one game that will appeal to everyone" . . . one game to rule them all, a MMO that will appeal to the masses. And you are right, if you want a MMO to appeal to the lowest common denominator it needs to be dumbed down. But what seems to be happening now days is that there are so many games they can't even give them away for free, players just don't have time to play all of the choices out there. Which means, I think, that increasingly this idea of one game to appeal to everyone is giving way to more niche games.

"dumb down" how elitist? Don't think making a map on a graphical paper is a big deal. I did that back in the might & magic days just because the technology was not there. It is a trivial and boring exercise. Long travel and boat rides are not more "intelligence". People here confuse assessible with dumbing down.

 

Once you get into niche, then the focus over how to make a good game leans away from this "universal standard" of what the masses want, toward a standard that focuses on what players of a certain demographic want. What classical music lovers want is not to listen to stuff that sounds like rock.

 Well the kind of investment you can make depends on how big the niche is, right? What is a realistic investment for your niche? Is it enough to make a virtual world? Being indie & niche is not the solution for everything. Music is dirt cheap to produce. That is why you have so many variations. Anyone with a band and a garage can produce for his/her niche.

Can you do it for MMO games when you need programmers, art, music, servers and so on ...

I am not arguing that there should be none, i am just laying out reality.

 

 

 In other words, you are saying there really isn't a mass market for MMOs and that AAA devs should focus their efforts elsewhere. But doesn't that put us in essential agreement? The period we are nostalgic about was before MMOs were trying to be mass marketed, many have argued that the decline was a result of mass marketing efforts. So how is it bad for MMOs if these massive companies move their efforts back to what they do best and leave MMOs to be MMOs.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/19/12 11:33:39 AM#834
Originally posted by paroxysm
 

Even without LFG, it's still a co-op lobby game to me in that people at end game sit around to get in groups to do raids/dungeons/whatever or sit in a queue to play in instanced pvp battlegrounds.  Not much else to do really.  Dailies, but those get old real quick.  And, they don't even have the draw of dailies that some other games have.  As little as that is and as much of a grind as it usually is.

In that case, not a very good one. How can a co-op lobby game without LFG tool? It will grind to a halt.

I would agree the style of game they built would have been better sold as an ARPG instead of an MMO.  It would have made a better single player game than an MMO.  But, they wanted and tried to make an MMO.  They sold it as an MMO.  It's a sad excuse for an MMO.  You see SWTOR as a trend of the way things are going.  I say it's a good example of what happens when you sell something as something that it is not.  SWTOR is in the news a lot.  The current financial condition is being watched by a lot of people.  People that are asking "what went wrong".  So, do you think it reinforces the direction or throws up a red flag?.  Depends on who you ask.  Some still say the whole thing was just a subscription problem. 

It *is* a sub problem. The only reason why they try for a MMO is because of the sub. If the world is F2P, they probably will just make it into a ARPG. The F2P trend is only going to help in this direction. I am hoping TL is stopping to become a MMO, and just focus on TL2 and TL3. Now there are *some* MMO features that will be good for ARPG, like a AH, or some crafting, but there is no reason for a full MMO is the core gameplay is co-op small group.

There was and still is a lot wrong with SWTOR.   I just hope when the dust finally settles some good lessons are learned and not just blamed on something superficial.

From what i saw, the worse is the combat, it is just not heroic and fun enough. They rely too much on the existing MMO combat. If i am a Jedi, i want to fight 10 or 20 enemies, not 3 .. and not taking them out one by one slowly. They should take a page from D3 combat .. yes there are "bosses" (champ pack & elite) that you will have to fight slowly, but you can mow through normal mobs. And even in the champ pack/elite fights, there are a lot of "minions" that you can mow through.

They also need a little more actiony combat. I am not saying go all the way to stringing combos, but at least action abilities with synergies.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/19/12 11:37:25 AM#835
Originally posted by Jjix

 

 In other words, you are saying there really isn't a mass market for MMOs and that AAA devs should focus their efforts elsewhere. But doesn't that put us in essential agreement? The period we are nostalgic about was before MMOs were trying to be mass marketed, many have argued that the decline was a result of mass marketing efforts. So how is it bad for MMOs if these massive companies move their efforts back to what they do best and leave MMOs to be MMOs.

Because there are the audience of the modern MMOs (pretty much online APRGs) would be left hanging?

Secondly, MMOs are expensive to make. So if massive companies left it alone, you will only have un-polished indie effort left.

Lastly, my post is not talking as much about good or bad, but the state of the world. AAA devs are going to focus their effort on assessible, co-op small group F2P MMOs. It is a prediction, not a call to action.

  Jjix

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 128

8/19/12 11:53:02 AM#836
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Jjix

 

 In other words, you are saying there really isn't a mass market for MMOs and that AAA devs should focus their efforts elsewhere. But doesn't that put us in essential agreement? The period we are nostalgic about was before MMOs were trying to be mass marketed, many have argued that the decline was a result of mass marketing efforts. So how is it bad for MMOs if these massive companies move their efforts back to what they do best and leave MMOs to be MMOs.

Because there are the audience of the modern MMOs (pretty much online APRGs) would be left hanging?

 

An ARPG isn't a MMO . . . so if these AAA companies are not making, or going to make, MMOs anyway . . . how is this bad for MMOs again? And if companies stop calling their ARPGs "MMOs", that is just a change in labels, so ARPGs aren't going to disappear and therefore I doubt that particular audience would be left hanging. Most true ARPGs do just fine without calling themselves MMOs.

  User Deleted
8/19/12 3:16:03 PM#837
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by paroxysm
 

Even without LFG, it's still a co-op lobby game to me in that people at end game sit around to get in groups to do raids/dungeons/whatever or sit in a queue to play in instanced pvp battlegrounds.  Not much else to do really.  Dailies, but those get old real quick.  And, they don't even have the draw of dailies that some other games have.  As little as that is and as much of a grind as it usually is.

In that case, not a very good one. How can a co-op lobby game without LFG tool? It will grind to a halt.

I would agree the style of game they built would have been better sold as an ARPG instead of an MMO.  It would have made a better single player game than an MMO.  But, they wanted and tried to make an MMO.  They sold it as an MMO.  It's a sad excuse for an MMO.  You see SWTOR as a trend of the way things are going.  I say it's a good example of what happens when you sell something as something that it is not.  SWTOR is in the news a lot.  The current financial condition is being watched by a lot of people.  People that are asking "what went wrong".  So, do you think it reinforces the direction or throws up a red flag?.  Depends on who you ask.  Some still say the whole thing was just a subscription problem. 

It *is* a sub problem. The only reason why they try for a MMO is because of the sub. If the world is F2P, they probably will just make it into a ARPG. The F2P trend is only going to help in this direction. I am hoping TL is stopping to become a MMO, and just focus on TL2 and TL3. Now there are *some* MMO features that will be good for ARPG, like a AH, or some crafting, but there is no reason for a full MMO is the core gameplay is co-op small group.

There was and still is a lot wrong with SWTOR.   I just hope when the dust finally settles some good lessons are learned and not just blamed on something superficial.

From what i saw, the worse is the combat, it is just not heroic and fun enough. They rely too much on the existing MMO combat. If i am a Jedi, i want to fight 10 or 20 enemies, not 3 .. and not taking them out one by one slowly. They should take a page from D3 combat .. yes there are "bosses" (champ pack & elite) that you will have to fight slowly, but you can mow through normal mobs. And even in the champ pack/elite fights, there are a lot of "minions" that you can mow through.

They also need a little more actiony combat. I am not saying go all the way to stringing combos, but at least action abilities with synergies.

 

Because LFG doesn't make it a co-op lobby by itself?  Sitting in a chat channel or using LFG, it's still the same.  LFG is a tool of convenience.  It just automates the making of teams/groups/raids.  Co-op lobby game says more about the amount of things to do in the game.  It did grind to a halt, but not solely because of the lack of an automated LFG.

If you really think the sub cost was what drove people away, I question if you played the game.  There is a difference in having a sub and justifying the cost of the sub.  It's not that the sub was out of line in cost either.  It's that what they provided was not enough to justify paying a sub.  Big difference.

Again, games like Torchlight and D3 are not MMORPGs.  You keep comparing MMORPGs to them. 

As for the last part, I don't think it's MMORPGs that you are interested in at all.  And no, ARPGs and Co-op lobby games dressed up as MMORPGs are not MMORPGs. 

I will, however, give you the synergy part.  There was not a lot of synergy in how the skills/attacks you had interacted with each other. 

I think it's time to just let our discussion end.  It's going no where again.  Nothing but circles, randomness, and repetition.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19117

8/20/12 12:28:32 AM#838
Originally posted by paroxysm
 

Because LFG doesn't make it a co-op lobby by itself?  Sitting in a chat channel or using LFG, it's still the same.  LFG is a tool of convenience.  It just automates the making of teams/groups/raids.  Co-op lobby game says more about the amount of things to do in the game.  It did grind to a halt, but not solely because of the lack of an automated LFG.

Well, there are standard features. It is like saying having a FPS without the ability to look up and down. I guess technically you can call it a FPS, but it will be very much gimped.

If you really think the sub cost was what drove people away, I question if you played the game.  There is a difference in having a sub and justifying the cost of the sub.  It's not that the sub was out of line in cost either.  It's that what they provided was not enough to justify paying a sub.  Big difference.

Yeah i bought the game and played less than a month. It certainly does NOT warrant a sub from me. However, i will play a bit when it goes F2P. So yeah, in my case, the game is not fun enough for a sub .. but fun enough for a few hours of F2P play.

Again, games like Torchlight and D3 are not MMORPGs.  You keep comparing MMORPGs to them. 

Because a) D3 has its own board on this MMORPG site, so i figure it is fair game, and b) the play style is close enough to MANY games listed as MMOs. There is VERY little difference between the playstyle when i play WOW, DCUO, and D3.

As for the last part, I don't think it's MMORPGs that you are interested in at all.  And no, ARPGs and Co-op lobby games dressed up as MMORPGs are not MMORPGs. 

Not the virtual world MMO. I am pretty clear on that. However, games such as Marvel Heroes, WOW, DCUO, DDO .. which are listed as MMO here and everywhere else, interests me. I also call them MMOs, just like everyone else

I think it's time to just let our discussion end.  It's going no where again.  Nothing but circles, randomness, and repetition.

Feel free :)

 

  tixylix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 1099

8/20/12 3:55:21 AM#839
Originally posted by paroxysm
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by paroxysm

 

The short life span and fleeing subs says that it is not a success.  It hasn't made what they spent on it.

SWTOR is already a co-op lobby game.  That's all there is for end game.  And the leveling experience is a story on rails game that is mostly single player.  You get companions to fill the gaps in your character's role.  You can solo a lot of group missions.   Everything is so separate and load screen loaded.  Even the very build of fleet seemed like it was built to avoid people loitering except the bar in the middle.  Which no one used.  Fleet was also population instanced to keep the number of people in an area down.  SWTOR is definitely not a virtual world.

No, TOR is not a success ... but it is certainly NOT a co-op lobby game. For example, when it was released, it does NOT even had a LFG function, which many asked for. Secondly, it does not change the "world" when one progresses in quests, like in D3.

It will  be a much better game, and a success if they do a proper ARPG instead. Why? a) they won't be wasting a ton of work making the world, and b) It would be a better gaming experience. These "story only" instances is jarring. There are too much backtracking. A proper SP RPG (i.e. you can port the person into a next chapter starting point without running back & forth, and you can change his "personal" world around) with multiplayer support (like D3, inviting others into your game) will be better.

Lastly, it sold 2M boxes in the first month. The only reason it is not a financial success is because of the huge investment to make it a MMO. If they do a proper RPG with a smaller scale, they would be a big success.

Even without LFG, it's still a co-op lobby game to me in that people at end game sit around to get in groups to do raids/dungeons/whatever or sit in a queue to play in instanced pvp battlegrounds.  Not much else to do really.  Dailies, but those get old real quick.  And, they don't even have the draw of dailies that some other games have.  As little as that is and as much of a grind as it usually is.

I would agree the style of game they built would have been better sold as an ARPG instead of an MMO.  It would have made a better single player game than an MMO.  But, they wanted and tried to make an MMO.  They sold it as an MMO.  It's a sad excuse for an MMO.  You see SWTOR as a trend of the way things are going.  I say it's a good example of what happens when you sell something as something that it is not.  SWTOR is in the news a lot.  The current financial condition is being watched by a lot of people.  People that are asking "what went wrong".  So, do you think it reinforces the direction or throws up a red flag?.  Depends on who you ask.  Some still say the whole thing was just a subscription problem. 

There was and still is a lot wrong with SWTOR.   I just hope when the dust finally settles some good lessons are learned and not just blamed on something superficial.

 

I agree SWTOR doesn't feel like an MMO and to be it doesn't even feel like it has a world. It's so split up between loading screens and instances that to me it feels more like PSO or something lol. People don't bother leaving the Fleet Station, just sit in there and grind instances and battlegrounds and you can purely make money in the game so easily from the AH. As you can send your companions out to do everything all you have to do is send them out and sell mats for a high price which some one always buys. 

 

I don't get why fleets are in there, to me we have these massive cities which some of them are amazing to look at and yet they sit empty.... why were fleets there when we could be in them?

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