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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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  darker70

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/21/08
Posts: 816

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Groucho Marx

7/25/12 7:24:08 PM#61
Originally posted by QuicklyScott

It would be great if someone came out with a cheap engine that is easy to manipulate so indie developers can really flourish.  MMOs just take to much damn money to make for anyone with some testicular fortitude to really try to innovate.  In the past year some of the best games I've played have been indie developed.  Minecraft would be an example.  Just look at what people have done with that game.  A successful indie game could really change the genre.

I suggest you check out the Hero website and forget all that crap about the Bioware raped version with which they caused there own downfall,also many people fail to realise Hero gives the whole package from support from Idea Fabrik to server side  management and it is also always updateing and adjusting to new technologies.

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

7/25/12 7:30:13 PM#62

Real MMORPG:s are dead and its sad.  Im not wasting time or money on quest hubs on rails games with a lobby.  I dont know why games are that bad and boring these days. Even if you enjoy the quests most players quit after the first 1-3 months. Because after that there is no content. And the games are no virtual worlds that can feel like a virtual home. Its just linear content that you will finish and quit...

I guess real MMORPG-fans are a small nishe. And linear lobby games are more profitable even if replayability and long term fun is terrible... Because there are millions of potential buyers that like console and action games. People that would hate a real MMORPG.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

7/25/12 7:32:51 PM#63

Was the MMORPG sandbox genre ever more than a niche?

Actually, before WoW was the full MMORPG market more than a niche?

What are people thinking?

That all those players will get tired of grinding raids in WoW and will suddenly join some sandbox game that will force them all the stuff sandboxers describe, like forced social interaction, player driven content, harsh death penalties, extensive time commitement?

WoW became popular exactly because it took those things away!

WoW at release was considered the least grindy MMORPG.

The socialization required for raiding is considered grindy and only a small fraction of the WoW population engaged in raiding until LFR.

Now that people are getting fed up with it since it is becoming a gear treadmill grind they will move to games that will be even less grindy not to more grindy games.

The MMORPG genre will grow by reaching into the video game community, and they want gaming worlds, not virtual social worlds.

Someone can create a MMO sandbox that is the wet dream of sandboxers (although that won't be easy since there are opinions that are the opposite of each other) it will still be a small game - might gather all the sandboxers in the same place, but it won't pick anyone else.

So no point hating on themeparks (specially the good ones) - they aren't stealing your players, since they were never your players in the first place.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/25/12 7:40:36 PM#64


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Was the MMORPG sandbox genre ever more than a niche?

Actually, before WoW was the full MMORPG market more than a niche?

What are people thinking?

That all those players will get tired of grinding raids in WoW and will suddenly join some sandbox game that will force them all the stuff sandboxers describe, like forced social interaction, player driven content, hardh death penalties, extensive time commitement?

WoW became popular exactly because it those things away!

WoW at release was considered the least grindy MMORPG.

Now that people are getting fed up with it since it is becoming a gear treadmill grind they will move to games that will be even less grindy not to more grindy games.

The MMORPG genre will grow by reaching into the video game community, and they want gaming worlds, not virtual social worlds.


The flaw in your statement is that you assume virtual worlds means forced grouping, harsh death penalty, brutal time sinks etc. What I mean by a virtual world is simply that: a virtual world. Developers used to offer gamers permanence in their creation. They allowed us to claim a stake. Something that was there after we logged off. Tangible objects on display as proof of existence. Not only that, but a virtual world allows players to do other things than kill or craft. Think about all the fun games out there that are not about crafting or killing. Yes, those types of things can be put into an mmorpg and it suddenly adds layers of depth to an otherwise whack-a-mole mmo. What if you had team sports, or plays, or races, skate parks, comedy clubs the list goes on. Just imagine if those things were implemented into an mmorpg with fully developed tools that allow players to create, collaborate, and compete on whole new levels. Not just being stuck with roleplaying an event and pretending to be able to race around a made up track or stand around an empty rooom pretending its your house and pretending you could sit in that chair. Or the sad reality that you have to /everything in order to feel like you're interacting with the world.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Mithios

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/07
Posts: 278

All that it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing..."Edmund Burke"

7/25/12 7:41:51 PM#65

Just because someone is too lazy or impatient to have to actually invest effort and time into activities such as camping, looking for camps, looking for a group, auction items manually (Such as had to be done in EC tunnel in EQ1) doesn't mean those are activities that need to be scrapped. These are the very activities that are the social basis for MMOs. The best times I've had and friends I have made in MMOs were always those times of struggle, so to speak. I made more friends running around looking for camps and asking players if I could share or by leading people through dangerous zones, or by asking a druid if I could gather some materials for them in trade for a teleport, etc (No instaporting)than any other time. Everyone wants immersion but don't actually want immersion. And "RPG" is exactly that. You play a role, not just run around pushing buttons for every possable action.. That's not a game, that's you being trained. No need to think or afford effort. Push a button, teleport there. Push a button, items go up for sale. Push a button, automatically joined into a group. No need for socialization. No need to be human. Pathetic and lazy.

A tiny mind is a tidy mind...

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16614

7/25/12 7:43:10 PM#66
Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.

Did you really put some time into that response or you did it by heart in the heat of the hour?

I honestly cant say i agree 100% with the OP, but i sure can say you are 100% wrong. How can the last years of mmorpg life make it better in any model or conception? Do you really believe in what you are saying?

If i close my eyes to GW2, a tittle that many gamers are following and expecting to bring some freash air to a genre in a decline path, what other new mmorpg launches you can name that actually brought some solid concept? rift? swtor? what...2..3..4 names? Name them plz...after you name them, open the mmorpg list in this site....start counting them, start reading community feedback....and ask yourself....

"what the heck am i talking about??"

Sorry Clerigo but he's right.

Let's take your examples, rift, swtor, etc.

More people play those games NOW after the initial excitement has worn off than any of the early games. didn't EQ have 200 or 250k? did ultima have more? How much? I can't imagine it was hundreds of thousands more. What you seem to be asserting is that the small group of people who started in the mmo genre were right and the many more who are now playing and enjoying these games are wrong.

This is not to say that your opinion of today's games is "wrong" because you like what you like. But the mmo genre has grown and it seems that the majority of people playing are into today's games.

you might rebut with "they never stay in them for more than a few months if that". And I would say "that's because today's mmo gamers are probably not looking for anything with a greater commitment.

You can't take the template of the early adopters and apply that to everyone who has become a current mmo player.

Truth of the matter is that most of these games gather way more people at launch than they rightfully should have. Some of these people are looking for something different from WoW and then start crying because the games are not WoW; some of them are just looking for something to play for a small bit and then they can hop onto the next game that comes out.

When you cut away the players who really would never be interested in some of these games you do find that they still have players.

Rift has players. SWToR has players. AoC has players. Star Trek online has playres. And who do I listen to? The jaded and unhappy mmo gamres who decry the current set of games; where everything is shit, or the guy at work who isn't an mmo gamer but he tried Star Trek online and then says to me "I don't know why some people dont' like this game, it's really fun".

Do I listen to post after post of angry, angry forum goers or the father who plays SWToR with his daughter and I see them going on about how much they enjoy it and how much fun they are having?

Have you ever heard the expression "water finds its own level"? Many of these games had/have issues, true, but they still have an audience playing them. They still have fans.

Heck, I remember one woman at work who, to my surprise, was in a WoW raiding guild and she was applauding the changes that were being made to WoW because it meant that she would have more time to play. Essentially she liked the more casual aspect that was being added.

The mmo genre is growing and like any media, it has gathered greater fans but fans who are not as hardcore or who do not have the desire to play games that are "virtual worlds". Heck, even another guy at work, who I would say is a "gamer" told me last month that he preferred his games to be more like games and less like "worlds".

And the current mmos' are just up his alley.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

7/25/12 7:53:45 PM#67
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Was the MMORPG sandbox genre ever more than a niche?

 

Actually, before WoW was the full MMORPG market more than a niche?

What are people thinking?

That all those players will get tired of grinding raids in WoW and will suddenly join some sandbox game that will force them all the stuff sandboxers describe, like forced social interaction, player driven content, hardh death penalties, extensive time commitement?

WoW became popular exactly because it those things away!

WoW at release was considered the least grindy MMORPG.

Now that people are getting fed up with it since it is becoming a gear treadmill grind they will move to games that will be even less grindy not to more grindy games.

The MMORPG genre will grow by reaching into the video game community, and they want gaming worlds, not virtual social worlds.


 

The flaw in your statement is that you assume virtual worlds means forced grouping, harsh death penalty, brutal time sinks etc. What I mean by a virtual world is simply that: a virtual world. Developers used to offer gamers permanence in their creation. They allowed us to claim a stake. Something that was there after we logged off. Tangible objects on display as proof of existence. Not only that, but a virtual world allows players to do other things than kill or craft. Think about all the fun games out there that are crafting or killing. Yes, those types of things can be put into an mmorpg and it suddenly adds layers of depth to an otherwise whack-a-mole mmo. What if you had team sports, or plays, or races, skate parks, comedy clubs the list goes on. Just imagine if those things were implemented into an mmorpg with fully developed tools that allow players to create, collaborate, and compete on whole new levels. Not just being stuck with roleplaying an event and pretending to be able to race around a made up track or stand around an empty rooom pretending its your house and pretending you could sit in that chair. Or the sad reality that you have to /everything in order to feel like you're interacting with the world.

Instead of imagining that you have to imagine a game that does that.

What games offered all that, aside from housing?

But if a game introduce those mini-games (mini since they are inside the bigger game) you complain because it is created by the game developers and not players...

And do I need to fish some posts from every thread where sandboxers long for open world pvp with corpse looting, harsh death penalty, where you without other people can't do shit?

The fact is no MMORPG let you build stuff that isn't coded - one game might give you a boat and another might let you grind a boat, one game might give you an armor and another might let you grind for the materials to make an armor, but those activities have no connection to the reality of building a boat or craft an armor.

You can go all poetic imagining that game, but the fact is that game never existed in 3D (or 2D).

Those activities made in real time in game will appear when the technology actually exists.

 

I don't even need to go fish, just here in this thread an example:

Originally posted by Mithios

Just because someone is too lazy or impatient to have to actually invest effort and time into activities such as camping, looking for camps, looking for a group, auction items manually (Such as had to be done in EC tunnel in EQ1) doesn't mean those are activities that need to be scrapped. These are the very activities that are the social basis for MMOs. The best times I've had and friends I have made in MMOs were always those times of struggle, so to speak. I made more friends running around looking for camps and asking players if I could share or by leading people through dangerous zones, or by asking a druid if I could gather some materials for them in trade for a teleport, etc (No instaporting)than any other time. Everyone wants immersion but don't actually want immersion. And "RPG" is exactly that. You play a role, not just run around pushing buttons for every possable action.. That's not a game, that's you being trained. No need to think or afford effort. Push a button, teleport there. Push a button, items go up for sale. Push a button, automatically joined into a group. No need for socialization. No need to be human. Pathetic and lazy.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  3-4thElf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 412

7/25/12 7:54:04 PM#68
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Clerigo
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.

Did you really put some time into that response or you did it by heart in the heat of the hour?

I honestly cant say i agree 100% with the OP, but i sure can say you are 100% wrong. How can the last years of mmorpg life make it better in any model or conception? Do you really believe in what you are saying?

If i close my eyes to GW2, a tittle that many gamers are following and expecting to bring some freash air to a genre in a decline path, what other new mmorpg launches you can name that actually brought some solid concept? rift? swtor? what...2..3..4 names? Name them plz...after you name them, open the mmorpg list in this site....start counting them, start reading community feedback....and ask yourself....

"what the heck am i talking about??"

Sorry Clerigo but he's right.

Let's take your examples, rift, swtor, etc.

More people play those games NOW after the initial excitement has worn off than any of the early games. didn't EQ have 200 or 250k? did ultima have more? How much? I can't imagine it was hundreds of thousands more. What you seem to be asserting is that the small group of people who started in the mmo genre were right and the many more who are now playing and enjoying these games are wrong.

This is not to say that your opinion of today's games is "wrong" because you like what you like. But the mmo genre has grown and it seems that the majority of people playing are into today's games.

you might rebut with "they never stay in them for more than a few months if that". And I would say "that's because today's mmo gamers are probably not looking for anything with a greater commitment.

You can't take the template of the early adopters and apply that to everyone who has become a current mmo player.

Truth of the matter is that most of these games gather way more people at launch than they rightfully should have. Some of these people are looking for something different from WoW and then start crying because the games are not WoW; some of them are just looking for something to play for a small bit and then they can hop onto the next game that comes out.

When you cut away the players who really would never be interested in some of these games you do find that they still have players.

Rift has players. SWToR has players. AoC has players. Star Trek online has playres. And who do I listen to? The jaded and unhappy mmo gamres who decry the current set of games; where everything is shit, or the guy at work who isn't an mmo gamer but he tried Star Trek online and then says to me "I don't know why some people dont' like this game, it's really fun".

Do I listen to post after post of angry, angry forum goers or the father who plays SWToR with his daughter and I see them going on about how much they enjoy it and how much fun they are having?

Have you ever heard the expression "water finds its own level"? Many of these games had/have issues, true, but they still have an audience playing them. They still have fans.

Heck, I remember one woman at work who, to my surprise, was in a WoW raiding guild and she was applauding the changes that were being made to WoW because it meant that she would have more time to play. Essentially she liked the more casual aspect that was being added.

The mmo genre is growing and like any media, it has gathered greater fans but fans who are not as hardcore or who do not have the desire to play games that are "virtual worlds". Heck, even another guy at work, who I would say is a "gamer" told me last month that he preferred his games to be more like games and less like "worlds".

And the current mmos' are just up his alley.

The only growth the MMORPG market has seen is in Asia.

Compare new growth in the MMORPG market vs new growth in other gaming markets like mobile and console gaming I'd safely bet it's been dismal in comparison.

I mean 10-12 million users of something isn't a number to sneeze at, but that's the MMORPG market. You draw from there.

There's been nothing worthwhile (game world or virtual world) to come along in 8 years to really expand on that idea. I mean 2006-2008 sure it was an exciting time to talk about growth.

If anything I think since 2010 the market has fallen. 

With multiplayer games mostly being led by games like League of Legends or Call of Duty online titles.

MMOs are on their way to something, probably not death, but looking at the genre and what it has to offer it's on a short bus.

a yo ho ho

  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/25/12 7:54:47 PM#69

@Sovrath

The problem I have is that this genre "grows" (if thats what you want to call it), it loses what made it a genre in the first place. MMOs are just glomming onto other genres now its pathetic. We have an mmo version of every other genre now. Action adventure, horror, fps, rts, platformer, tcg, you name it. But the virtual world is gone. And thats what truly made an MMORPG what it is.

What defines an mmorpg. Is it literally the meaning of each letter? I think a lot of people say yes to that. They have a checklist: is it online with a lot of people and has character progression? Boom! MMORPG. This forum is an mmorpg by that definition. It has lots of people, is online, and i get little gold stars when I play nice.

No. An mmorpg is a virtual world. Lazy developers. Greedy developers from other genres saw an opportunity to cash in and missed the entire point of the genre by a mile. But who cares, right? They are making high quality online versions of other genres... its bs. Its not a virtual world. And when you ask them to make one, they go as far as to say "its too hard".

Thats why this genre is dead.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Jockan

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/03/08
Posts: 3992

7/25/12 7:58:29 PM#70

All of these games that you people think failed are still here and people play them. I do agree that the genre is more alive today but the problem is that its a themepark genre today and the old school mmo players are more of the sandbox type. What we need are real sandbox games being made by AAA companys.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

7/25/12 8:00:27 PM#71
Originally posted by Foomerang

@Sovrath

The problem I have is that this genre "grows" (if thats what you want to call it), it loses what made it a genre in the first place. MMOs are just glomming onto other genres now its pathetic. We have an mmo version of every other genre now. Action adventure, horror, fps, rts, platformer, tcg, you name it. But the virtual world is gone. And thats what truly made an MMORPG what it is.

What defines an mmorpg. Is it literally the meaning of each letter? I think a lot of people say yes to that. They have a checklist: is it online with a lot of people and has character progression? Boom! MMORPG. This forum is an mmorpg by that definition. It has lots of people, is online, and i get little gold stars when I play nice.

No. An mmorpg is a virtual world. Lazy developers. Greedy developers from other genres saw an opportunity to cash in and missed the entire point of the genre by a mile. But who cares, right? They are making high quality online versions of other genres... its bs. Its not a virtual world. And when you ask them to make one, they go as far as to say "its too hard".

Thats why this genre is dead.

And where did the virtual worlds took the genre to in the first place?

Nowhere, it was an obscure genre and that genre still exists with more or less the same number fo games.

Additonally I see G for game, and I don't see and VW for Virtual World.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

7/25/12 8:02:16 PM#72
Originally posted by Foomerang

The problem I have is that this genre "grows" (if thats what you want to call it), it loses what made it a genre in the first place.

Our only authority to dictate the one true path comes from rolling up our sleeves and writing games ourselves.    Everything else is simply choosing between the options on the table.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16614

7/25/12 8:03:59 PM#73
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
 

I mean 10-12 million users of something isn't a number to sneeze at, but that's the MMORPG market. You draw from there.

I would actually posit that 10-12 million users are not the western mmo market.

I realize that since WoW has roughtly that amount people like to point out that those players are just ripe for the picking for other mmo games.

Except from what I have seen from WoW players who fall in different circles than I inhabit, they aren't mmo gamres. They are acuallly WoW players.

So, the woman I worked with who was in a WoW raidign guild knew nothing about any other mmo. Nothing. Another woman I worked with at a different job who was sort of high up in the marketing department and played WoW also didnt' know much about mmos' when I got on the subject with her.

Of my few friends who play video games only 2 play an mmo. guess which one? WoW. And honestly they know nothing about any other mmo's. I met another woman at a dinner party who was an avid wow player and she knew of LOTRO. She also heard of Everquest.

This is not to say that of that 10-12 million players that none of them ever want to leave wow. But I have seen the WoW players go to other games and complain that they weren't WoW. SWToR and Aion being the two in question. And actually throw lotro into that pile.

My guess is that the western mmo market is a lot smaller than 10-12 million. And actually, of those 10-12 million, are all those western wow players or "all wow players". Because I thought the western number was something like 3 to 5 million?

 

  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/25/12 8:06:55 PM#74


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Foomerang @Sovrath The problem I have is that this genre "grows" (if thats what you want to call it), it loses what made it a genre in the first place. MMOs are just glomming onto other genres now its pathetic. We have an mmo version of every other genre now. Action adventure, horror, fps, rts, platformer, tcg, you name it. But the virtual world is gone. And thats what truly made an MMORPG what it is. What defines an mmorpg. Is it literally the meaning of each letter? I think a lot of people say yes to that. They have a checklist: is it online with a lot of people and has character progression? Boom! MMORPG. This forum is an mmorpg by that definition. It has lots of people, is online, and i get little gold stars when I play nice. No. An mmorpg is a virtual world. Lazy developers. Greedy developers from other genres saw an opportunity to cash in and missed the entire point of the genre by a mile. But who cares, right? They are making high quality online versions of other genres... its bs. Its not a virtual world. And when you ask them to make one, they go as far as to say "its too hard". Thats why this genre is dead.
And where did the virtual worlds took the genre to in the first place?

Nowhere, it was an obscure genre and that genre still exists with more or less the same number fo games.

Additonally I see G for game, and I don't see and VW for Virtual World.


Ironically, single player console games are picking up the torch and making more and more virtual worlds. Its only a matter of time before they takes these concepts into the mmo space as well. Meanwhile, we get mmo versions of tried and true genres and call it progress. The writing is on the wall. This fad of taking old concepts and making it fresh by putting it online is coming to an end. Single player console games had to adapt or die when internet gaming took off. And they have. Now its internet gaming that is stagnating and they will once again have to take a cue from what the consoles are doing.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16614

7/25/12 8:11:44 PM#75
Originally posted by Foomerang

@Sovrath

The problem I have is that this genre "grows" (if thats what you want to call it), it loses what made it a genre in the first place. MMOs are just glomming onto other genres now its pathetic. We have an mmo version of every other genre now. Action adventure, horror, fps, rts, platformer, tcg, you name it. But the virtual world is gone. And thats what truly made an MMORPG what it is.

What defines an mmorpg. Is it literally the meaning of each letter? I think a lot of people say yes to that. They have a checklist: is it online with a lot of people and has character progression? Boom! MMORPG. This forum is an mmorpg by that definition. It has lots of people, is online, and i get little gold stars when I play nice.

No. An mmorpg is a virtual world. Lazy developers. Greedy developers from other genres saw an opportunity to cash in and missed the entire point of the genre by a mile. But who cares, right? They are making high quality online versions of other genres... its bs. Its not a virtual world. And when you ask them to make one, they go as far as to say "its too hard".

Thats why this genre is dead.

I would say (and keep in mind that my mmo proclivities are far more hardcore and old school in preference) that developers looked at the mmo worlds, saw what players were complaining about and then streamlined that stuff or removed it. I mean, isn't taht what early WoW did? And then "Blammo" more subs.

So they realized that there was a larger market out there for online entertainment, marketed the whole thing up and drew even more people in. They then made the games more casual, more "fun and quirky" which seemed to work and took the stigma out of it a bit. Essentially made it more mainstream. And then more people.

When WoW launched, what was the big western mmo at the time? My answer would be Everquest. Not my first mmo as mine was Lineage 2 but I dont' think ultima or shadowbane were really contenders there. Ryzom? didn't do it.

Everquest didnt' keep growing along with WoW. And all those Everquest 2 peeps either went back to everquest or went to WoW.

It was WoW that grew and then grew more when they started hacking the world bits off and making things more strealined.

I would say the genre has evolved in a way that the early adopters probably dont' like but that made these games far more palatable to players who would never be interested in a virtual world. That's not about lazy develpers. That's about developers adopting whatever the current market trend was/is.

 

  Whyhate

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/12
Posts: 43

7/25/12 8:12:56 PM#76
Originally posted by austriacus

While they have been some failures the vast majority of themeparks are bringing loads of money to developers, even the worst ones. And have big populations.

You are the only one living on a bubble.

Most themeparks end up being F2P because not even a monkey can play one for more than a couple of months without getting bored.

 

Care to show some links where it says that FTP games generate more revenue than EvE?

 

Really, show me one.

 

The fact still remains, EvE has more subs than pretty much every themepark MMO except WOW.

 

And we are talking about a FFA PVP with full loot niche game where you are a ship, not a character.

 

Oh and nobody cares about F2P games, they are all shit anyway,

 

It's just funny when people say that the market for sandbox games is small when EvE, a sandbox MMO, has more subs than almost every half assed wow clone in the market.

 

  silvermember

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 489

7/25/12 8:13:07 PM#77
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
 

I mean 10-12 million users of something isn't a number to sneeze at, but that's the MMORPG market. You draw from there.

 

My guess is that the western mmo market is a lot smaller than 10-12 million. And actually, of those 10-12 million, are all those western wow players or "all wow players". Because I thought the western number was something like 3 to 5 million?

 

You are right the number of western gamers that play WoW is only at 5-6 million. Most of them are in china, i believe.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2446

7/25/12 8:14:26 PM#78
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Foomerang @Sovrath The problem I have is that this genre "grows" (if thats what you want to call it), it loses what made it a genre in the first place. MMOs are just glomming onto other genres now its pathetic. We have an mmo version of every other genre now. Action adventure, horror, fps, rts, platformer, tcg, you name it. But the virtual world is gone. And thats what truly made an MMORPG what it is. What defines an mmorpg. Is it literally the meaning of each letter? I think a lot of people say yes to that. They have a checklist: is it online with a lot of people and has character progression? Boom! MMORPG. This forum is an mmorpg by that definition. It has lots of people, is online, and i get little gold stars when I play nice. No. An mmorpg is a virtual world. Lazy developers. Greedy developers from other genres saw an opportunity to cash in and missed the entire point of the genre by a mile. But who cares, right? They are making high quality online versions of other genres... its bs. Its not a virtual world. And when you ask them to make one, they go as far as to say "its too hard". Thats why this genre is dead.
And where did the virtual worlds took the genre to in the first place?

 

Nowhere, it was an obscure genre and that genre still exists with more or less the same number fo games.

Additonally I see G for game, and I don't see and VW for Virtual World.


 

Ironically, single player console games are picking up the torch and making more and more virtual worlds. Its only a matter of time before they takes these concepts into the mmo space as well. Meanwhile, we get mmo versions of tried and true genres and call it progress. The writing is on the wall. This fad of taking old concepts and making it fresh by putting it online is coming to an end. Single player console games had to adapt or die when internet gaming took off. And they have. Now its internet gaming that is stagnating and they will once again have to take a cue from what the consoles are doing.

The irony is on your side though - GW2 is one of the best virtual worlds, but it is a gaming virtual world created by the developers and so doesn't fit your notion of virtual world.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Whyhate

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/12
Posts: 43

7/25/12 8:17:08 PM#79
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Originally posted by Foomerang @Sovrath The problem I have is that this genre "grows" (if thats what you want to call it), it loses what made it a genre in the first place. MMOs are just glomming onto other genres now its pathetic. We have an mmo version of every other genre now. Action adventure, horror, fps, rts, platformer, tcg, you name it. But the virtual world is gone. And thats what truly made an MMORPG what it is. What defines an mmorpg. Is it literally the meaning of each letter? I think a lot of people say yes to that. They have a checklist: is it online with a lot of people and has character progression? Boom! MMORPG. This forum is an mmorpg by that definition. It has lots of people, is online, and i get little gold stars when I play nice. No. An mmorpg is a virtual world. Lazy developers. Greedy developers from other genres saw an opportunity to cash in and missed the entire point of the genre by a mile. But who cares, right? They are making high quality online versions of other genres... its bs. Its not a virtual world. And when you ask them to make one, they go as far as to say "its too hard". Thats why this genre is dead.
And where did the virtual worlds took the genre to in the first place?

 

Nowhere, it was an obscure genre and that genre still exists with more or less the same number fo games.

Additonally I see G for game, and I don't see and VW for Virtual World.


 

Ironically, single player console games are picking up the torch and making more and more virtual worlds. Its only a matter of time before they takes these concepts into the mmo space as well. Meanwhile, we get mmo versions of tried and true genres and call it progress. The writing is on the wall. This fad of taking old concepts and making it fresh by putting it online is coming to an end. Single player console games had to adapt or die when internet gaming took off. And they have. Now its internet gaming that is stagnating and they will once again have to take a cue from what the consoles are doing.

The irony is on your side though - GW2 is one of the best virtual worlds, but it is a gaming virtual world created by the developers and so doesn't fit your notion of virtual world.

GW2 is not a virtual world.

It's a quest grinder with a new way to grind quests ( dynamic events)

 

UO is a virtual world, EvE is a virtual world, you know... games where you can do more than just kill things.

  silvermember

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 489

7/25/12 8:17:26 PM#80
Originally posted by Whyhate
Originally posted by austriacus

While they have been some failures the vast majority of themeparks are bringing loads of money to developers, even the worst ones. And have big populations.

You are the only one living on a bubble.

Most themeparks end up being F2P because not even a monkey can play one for more than a couple of months without getting bored.

 

Care to show some links where it says that FTP games generate more revenue than EvE?

 

Really, show me one.

 

The fact still remains, EvE has more subs than pretty much every themepark MMO except WOW.

 

And we are talking about a FFA PVP with full loot niche game where you are a ship, not a character.

 

Oh and nobody cares about F2P games, they are all shit anyway,

 

It's just funny when people say that the market for sandbox games is small when EvE, a sandbox MMO, has more subs than almost every half assed wow clone in the market.

 

Most MMORPG end up as f2p because they are so many MMORPG that are not worth paying for. A bad game is still just a bad game, it doesn't matter whether its a themepark or sandbox.

Also a lot of the sandbox games made after EvE have failed, so your whole point is not really make sense.  then again, it does make sense if you know that a lot of people on this site like to conveniently forget about all current sandbox games and like to make up abitrary reasons why all the current sandbox games don't fit their abitrary definition of a sandbox game.

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