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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4581

7/25/12 6:38:11 PM#41
Originally posted by Rayshe
Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

sorry i have to disagree with you aswell. there is a very large sandbox following its just that our games get ruined by people who with dont understand them or simply dont care

A few 100 thousand is not a large following in a genre of 10s of millions.

This is not to say that there aren't some great sandbox games, but when it comes to MMOs, most gamers these days are too old to invest the amount of time required from the types of sandbox games you people seem to want. They just aren't very practical.

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

7/25/12 6:39:46 PM#42
Originally posted by Rayshe
Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

sorry i have to disagree with you aswell. there is a very large sandbox following its just that our games get ruined by people who with dont understand them or simply dont care

What is large? 500k?, 1m?, 2m?. Im sorry but wherever this big sandbox follow is its hiding pretty well. And even if there is a large number of them, compared to themepark players they are very little. And thats why all your sandbox games get ruined by other players as you say.

Games are a bussines thats the reality and making this magical sandbox that you people ask for costs a lot of money. Money that developers arent gona see a return of in a while if they release them now.

  User Deleted
7/25/12 6:43:42 PM#43
Originally posted by Rayshe
Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

sorry i have to disagree with you aswell. there is a very large sandbox following its just that our games get ruined by people who with dont understand them or simply dont care

I think that is the real problem. The old saying "That is why we can't have nice things" applies here. If someone made a nice sandbox with terraforming, I can see some asshats building an impassable moat around the town so nobody could get in or out.

 

Some would say "well that what player content is!!" Which is true. But the result is it just pisses everyone who wants to get in or out of the town off and they eventually quit instead of dealing with the asshats and griefers.

  Rattus

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/03/04
Posts: 28

7/25/12 6:43:45 PM#44
Originally posted by Alders
Originally posted by Roenick

The real issue is they are taking the MMO out of MMORPG games. No one talks to each other outside of a few instances or if you're lucky enough to be a in a tight knit guild in a game that still has guilds.

 

Talking to someone else on your computer used to be new and exciting.  It no longer is.  People went out of their way and out of their comfort zone to converse because it was required to accomplish anything.  MMO'ers have always been antisocial, we just couldn't get away with it 10 years ago.

You bring up a good point Alders. The whole idea of playing in a persistent world was fresh and exciting. There was no facebook, no smart phones(heck i didn't even have a cell phone then) and not everyone and there dog had an internet connection.

I remember telling some co-workers about UO and they just couldn't grasp the idea that the game world continued to exist when I wasn't playing. It intrigued them but they never considered it something they would ever do. That and talking to strangers on the internet sounded "risky".  :)

Today you are hard pressed to find a game that doesn't have some form of online function and the market is full of players from all walks of life, not just us old geeks. Heck, my 70 year old mother plays multiplayer scrabble on her iPad.

To the OP. I don't think the genre is dead at all. Like others have mentioned, it has changed with it's player base. It may not have changed for the good in some cases but it has come along way from The Realm or M59 days and I guess we either stick it out, go back to the old games or give up on MMOs all together. I'm gonna stick it out and have fun. :)

  silvermember

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/02/12
Posts: 498

7/25/12 6:46:28 PM#45

So this topic is pretty much another sandbox topic masquerading as a "genre is dead" speech? Anyways, the topic should be changed to This genre is dead...TO ME and my other 10 MMORPG.com online friends.

Just because you don't like the direction the genre is heading to does not equal to dead. I might hate the state of television but it is not dead to a lot more people, hence the reason why the genre is still the way it is.

  Whyhate

Novice Member

Joined: 7/19/12
Posts: 43

7/25/12 6:46:35 PM#46
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Rayshe
Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

sorry i have to disagree with you aswell. there is a very large sandbox following its just that our games get ruined by people who with dont understand them or simply dont care

A few 100 thousand is not a large following in a genre of 10s of millions.

This is not to say that there aren't some great sandbox games, but when it comes to MMOs, most gamers these days are too old to invest the amount of time required from the types of sandbox games you people seem to want. They just aren't very practical.

Yet every themepark game released in the last 8 years ended up being F2P or dead with 2 servers.

It's probably why GW2 doesn't have a sub, why bother with it, games this days are lucky to retain 20% of it's playerbase 6 months after launch.

Maybe im wrong, but EvE has more subs than pretty much every themepark MMO except WOW.

Im sure it will have more players than GW2 in 1 year.

  QuicklyScott

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/12
Posts: 448

The opinion of a penguin.

7/25/12 6:46:37 PM#47
Originally posted by austriacus
Originally posted by Rayshe
Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

sorry i have to disagree with you aswell. there is a very large sandbox following its just that our games get ruined by people who with dont understand them or simply dont care

What is large? 500k?, 1m?, 2m?. Im sorry but wherever this big sandbox follow is its hiding pretty well. And even if there is a large number of them, compared to themepark players they are very little. And thats why all your sandbox games get ruined by other players as you say.

Games are a bussines thats the reality and making this magical sandbox that you people ask for costs a lot of money. Money that developers arent gona see a return of in a while if they release them now.

The average MMO player doesn't know what a sandbox is.  Most people only know WoW, if WoW was a sandbox, sandbox would be the most popular MMO type.  WoW defined the genre.  

WoW ruined any hope for a decent in-depth MMO.  Look at the outrage surrounding SWG.

  Badaboom

Elite Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 2366

7/25/12 6:46:49 PM#48
I, and many other players like me are part of the problem. You see, once upon a time I used to be able to sit in front of a computer for countless hours at a time. Wife and kids later, I just don't have the time anymore. Thing is, neither do a lot of the other gamers that are about my age (38 today). So my time being a more precious commodity than my money in terms of gaming you probably can see where I'm running with this. I don't have time to look for a group. I do not time to camp a 24 hour spawn. I do not have time to even raid. I need to be able to pick up and go at a moments notice. Game companies are trying to cater to me because I have the money to spend. Now I'm not saying that there shouldn't be virtual words because I know that there is a market out there, just that it is a smaller market, thus a tougher sell to the suits. In closing I will simply say that you can vote with your wallet.
  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2188

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

7/25/12 6:47:58 PM#49
Originally posted by Foomerang

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
Dead?

 

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.


 

the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.

I think this is the distinction here a lot of people are missing. It isn't that the mmorpg market is failing, it is expanding and attracting and making record profit, and the OP is not discounting it.

I have a slightly different way of saying it. It isn't to me that the genre is dead, it is that the genre I was introduced to, is not what we original players or what I believe the original developers ever expected  the genre to evolve into.

The philosophy back then was that as the genre developed, the worlds would become more open, more in depth, more complex. We envisioned EQ without zone lines and more emersive graphics, more ways to draw you into the world, more ways to differentiate your character, more reasons to play at max lvl. More ways to be unique. Many ways to meet challenges - specifically, I don't any of us expected routine rotations or button mashing.

I'm not necessarily even saying more sandboxy - but I think it is pretty obvious that most of the original crowd thought that would be the direction - but instead, more that the current games feel so completely different than the original games. We thought the worlds we would have would be immersive for years, not months.

But what do we have? Well, to me it is more like fast food. Quick, convenient entertainment in small increments. It is a totally different feel than what we originally defined 'mmorpg' to mean.

And don't take that wrong, quick convenient entertainment is still entertaining. But it is the difference between the fun of, let's say a vacation around the world  and a roller coaster. They both can be entertaining, but in totally different ways.

The genre did not evolve as we expected.

One last analogy. If someone had shown me in 1999 the game SW:TOR - I cannot lie, I would have been blown away. I would have been blown away by how far the graphics/tech had come. I'd be blown away at some of the time sinks that went away. I'd have been blown away by how different quest lines had become.

But I don't think if someone asked me in 1999 to describe what TOR was, I wouldn't have said, 'mmorpg'. I would have said it had elements of it. I would have been excited about seeing games like that in the future, but I would have naturally assumed they'd have their own classification like 'online rpg (orpg)' or 'mog (multiplayer online game)'. Because TOR simply doesn't contain the core of how I defined an 'mmorpg' in 1999.

I'm not giving up. I think everyone is recognizing the market is oversturated and running the same formula over and over with a different skin - and continually simplifying these games beyone what we imagined. TOR's maps are the exact opposite of how I believed future mmo landscapes to look. Invisible walls were a necessity pre-1999 - post 1999 we all thought that boat would have sailed.

I still firmly believe that the next, "WoW" is going to be absolutely nothing like the mass of mmorpgs we have today. Maybe it will be like we original players envisioned, I hope so. But maybe it will be something so out of left field, no one saw it coming. But that's the next big hit - I'd put money on it. But you couldn't get me to put money on when it will be released. It could be next year, it could be 10 years from now, but it won't be like what we have now.

So, for me, consider this:

MMORPG's is like one of my long time friends. We grew up together. But now that mmo's have reached puberty, their personality is starting to change. It isn't the friend I had fun with for so many years. Sure we have some laughs now and then. But sometimes, I just want to look my friend squarely in the eye and say,

"Man - you've changed. You are not the mmorpg I used to know. You still have some growing up to do."

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 985

7/25/12 6:50:15 PM#50
Originally posted by Reskaillev

Another one of these threads?

 

The genre ain't dead -_- it's only changing towards a more rpg-esque nature. If I want to play "community" I'll stick with RL, thank you very much. If on the other hand I want to play a game with a community residing in it, I'll be glad to take an mmorpg.

 

 

Oh man, we totally need a Community MMO. 8-bit and all.

  User Deleted
7/25/12 6:51:51 PM#51

I do not think this genre is dead or even on it's death bed. We are just in the bad situation of too much competition, too few technological developments as far as internet and MMO worlds are concerned and the growing community of really picky hard to please consumers.

Change will happen. How long it takes is another matter altogether.

  SuprGamerX

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 538

7/25/12 6:51:55 PM#52

 Heh , the OP is right with "The genre is dead".  Pretty much everyone who waitted for SWTOR were playing another MMO , jumped to TOR once released , sucked , moved onto the next "big thing" (which won't be GW2 btw, but you see where i'm heading with this)    The MMO genre isn't really getting any fresh blood , and if it does get fresh blood they are mainly heading into simple games such as Maple Story and other type of MMO's.   

 To put it in other words , the day we truly get a Fantasy type MMO worth paying and playing for months with no end , trust me WoW will die , because let's face it , WoW players are the rulers , if they decide for example GW2 is the next big thing , then I hope the servers are ready for a few million players to jump in within the 1st week.

 Again it goes to fortify my point for the past couple of years , take any MMO GW2 , Archeage , etc , put them side by side with WoW , (now except for graphics because if graphics were so important WoW would of been dead years ago , so no graphics bull please) ,  explain to me why players from WoW should leave their accomplishments to play a game like TOR / GW2 or any other upcoming releases that looks alot alike when it comes to gameplay and such?   Why leave my years of accomplishments in a fantasy type MMO to play another that doesn't have a whole bunch new to offer me?  

 RTS is the secret , hell , in other genre then bloody fantasy is the cure , I know ALOT of real life WoW players that will keep paying for WoW but will join EoN and got a few to actually play with in closed beta this past week end.  

 Planetside 2 is another great option , I've enjoyed PS1 and PS2 just looks sick.  Planetside 2 devs are in a hell of a position to grab a crap load of players , especially with CoD / MoH being so darn popular and played by millions every day , if PS2 can deliver then it will most likely be on top of the world along with WoW.  

 So to conclude , WoW will remain the king of Fantasy genre MMOs for a few years still , of course you'll have Torchlight 2 and Grimdawn that aren't really in the same category but will yank away some WoW players , ArcheAge looks promising but let's just hope the devs don't fall in the players urge to have the game delivered ASAP , they need to take the time to create a full featured MMO with tons of content available on day 1 to have a major launch success , otherwise if they rush through it and release a half finished MMO to the market , it'll be forgotten within the year of release.

  So my MMO watchlist from most eager to least eager : EoN , PS2 , ArcheAge , WoD (World of Darkness) , the rest , meh.

  azmundai

Novice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1422

7/25/12 6:52:33 PM#53


Originally posted by Foomerang

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Dead?

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.


the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.


the killer for me is that indie games are more often than not sci fi or survival .. while I love star wars, I generally prefer to play fantasy / magic based games. repop does look awesome tho .. I really hope it does well. I just wish it had wizards and clerics and such :)

overall though you do a good job of summing up how I feel. AAA virtual worlds is a dead concept.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  OldManFunk

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 900

7/25/12 6:54:18 PM#54

MMOs aren't dead. Gamers have grown up. There's only so long you can spend in your parent's basement living in an online fantasy world. Old MMOs simply take too much time and commitment for old gamers to enjoy. I've got a job, I dont need my MMO to feel like work. I've got a family, I don't need my MMO Guild to be a second family with expectations of me. I just want to play a fun game when I've got time and I like the way MMOs are evolving.

  darker70

Novice Member

Joined: 10/21/08
Posts: 819

A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five.
Groucho Marx

7/25/12 6:59:07 PM#55
Originally posted by azmundai

 


Originally posted by Foomerang

Originally posted by nariusseldon
Dead?

 

The market is huge and may still be expanding. Going into a direction you do not like != dead.

In fact, i think it is becoming MORE ALIVE, solving all the old problems (like camping & finding groups with instances & LFD/LFR), while giving a large part of the games to the players for FREE.

It is getting BETTER.


 

the genre is dead. not the market. the business of taking old console game concepts into the mmo space is huge. the genre that attempted to make virtual worlds is dead.


 

the killer for me is that indie games are more often than not sci fi or survival .. while I love star wars, I generally prefer to play fantasy / magic based games. repop does look awesome tho .. I really hope it does well. I just wish it had wizards and clerics and such :)

overall though you do a good job of summing up how I feel. AAA virtual worlds is a dead concept.

Regarding  Repop this game really will light those older gamers sandbox fires and it does not need wizards and clerics I have GW2  for that gubbins  

  QuicklyScott

Novice Member

Joined: 4/27/12
Posts: 448

The opinion of a penguin.

7/25/12 7:09:08 PM#56

It would be great if someone came out with a cheap engine that is easy to manipulate so indie developers can really flourish.  MMOs just take to much damn money to make for anyone with some testicular fortitude to really try to innovate.  In the past year some of the best games I've played have been indie developed.  Minecraft would be an example.  Just look at what people have done with that game.  A successful indie game could really change the genre.

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4670

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/25/12 7:09:19 PM#57


Originally posted by Reskaillev
100% combat oriented gameplay? Oh please have a word with GW2's crafting system, economy and minigames. Sure you can't be a musician in that game, but I ain't intrested in those things.

Crafting in GW2 is the same as every other themepark. Farm nodes, drag n drop, poof item is done. Maybe they added a twist with the whole "discovery" system where you can feel like you're creating something new. Doesnt change the fact that you make generic crap that only becomes interesting when you go to their cash shop to buy items that change stats around and model skins. That is straight up ass backwards for a good crafting system in a mmorpg. And mini games? Are you serious? The fact that they are referred to as MINI-games, should clue you in on the utter insignificance of these activities. They are a fun little distraction to the main bulk of the game. That is not the same as a fully fleshed out questing and combat system, which GW2 is mainly focused on. I wont say 100% but I'll be generous and say 95%. Which is still a far cry from the virtual world Jon Peters claims it to be.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

7/25/12 7:11:23 PM#58
Originally posted by Whyhate
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Rayshe
Originally posted by austriacus

Why cant you people accept reality already? The majoritry doesnt want a fricking simulation game and yes thats EXACTLY what you people are asking for.

Genres evolve through time, deal with it. What was a mmorpg 12 years ago is different to what it is now.

What mmorpg means now is exactly the same as the word.

They are massive

They are multiplayer

They are online

and they are role playing games.

If you people want second life set on the medieval times go make your own game.

As far as im concerned mmorpgs nowdays are great and millions agree with me.

sorry i have to disagree with you aswell. there is a very large sandbox following its just that our games get ruined by people who with dont understand them or simply dont care

A few 100 thousand is not a large following in a genre of 10s of millions.

This is not to say that there aren't some great sandbox games, but when it comes to MMOs, most gamers these days are too old to invest the amount of time required from the types of sandbox games you people seem to want. They just aren't very practical.

Yet every themepark game released in the last 8 years ended up being F2P or dead with 2 servers.

It's probably why GW2 doesn't have a sub, why bother with it, games this days are lucky to retain 20% of it's playerbase 6 months after launch.

Maybe im wrong, but EvE has more subs than pretty much every themepark MMO except WOW.

Im sure it will have more players than GW2 in 1 year.

Yes you are wrong. Eve is a great game for what it is and it has been the only mmo appart from wow to grow over time but you are dead wrong on the numbers.

The majority of ftp games have more population and genrate more money than eve. As it sits now eve has more or less 350k subs.

This is the kind of mentality that really shows that you are in your little bubble.

While they have been some failures the vast majority of themeparks are bringing loads of money to developers, even the worst ones. And have big populations.

  3-4thElf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 451

7/25/12 7:13:10 PM#59
Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

Agreed.

I mean I expect GW2 to be a good game, and I can say a few MMOs released are good for what they are. 

They aren't innovative, worth the cost the developers seem to brag paying, or really have added anything significant to gaming.

Mutliplayer Online games are more fun in RDR, COD, SFIV, and such just cuz the "MASSIVE" in MMO just stands for the amounts of cash they hope to make rather than the amount of content / people sticking around playing.

WOW dominates the genre because all thinking that involves MMORPGs are stuck in 2004.

a yo ho ho

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4670

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/25/12 7:15:31 PM#60


Originally posted by QuicklyScott
It would be great if someone came out with a cheap engine that is easy to manipulate so indie developers can really flourish.  MMOs just take to much damn money to make for anyone with some testicular fortitude to really try to innovate.  In the past year some of the best games I've played have been indie developed.  Minecraft would be an example.  Just look at what people have done with that game.  A successful indie game could really change the genre.

I agree. To see what Above and Beyond Technologies has done with the Hero Engine puts Bioware to shame. These types of tools becoming more affordable is about the only silver lining to the dismal state of this genre.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

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