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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/05/12 12:18:35 AM#521
Originally posted by kartool
Originally posted by kantseeme
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by kantseeme
Originally posted by Vyeth

Hip hop is dead.. Classic action movies are dead.. Sidescrolling beat em ups are dead.. Michael Jackson, the king of pop, is dead.. 

MMORPG's, however, are not dead.. They have simply evolved.. Just like everything else in life that follows evolution cycles, you either adapt or perish..


What you consider MMOs by todays standerds arent really MMOs at all. Dont take my word for it. look it up. Theres no evolving goin on here. Its a MUTATION.

That is just semantics. Whatever you call them .. are better (for me) games than the old MMOs.

If Gamestop and all the game reviewers are calling WOW a MMO, are calling TSW a MMO, are calling GW2 a MMO, that is the label i will use.

 

SEMANTICS

 

 

You can keep talking all you want. Not making youeself look very good at all. No real MMOer today considers these POSs true MMOs. Think what ever you like but in the end you know it to be true. You yourself said what these mmos of today have be come, and its not what makes up a real mmo.

 

Waitng on ban from someone reporting me. Seems to be the thing to do these days when someone doesent agree with someone else.

Oh please great and mighty dude on an internet forum. Please tell all of us what a real MMOer is, and what a true MMO is. Please.

Do i need to tell you? Its been documented a thousand times. You know and i know what they are. Dont be a fool.

Get over yourself dude. You want a certain type of MMO, other people want other types. You like certain game mechanics, dislike others and other people don't necessarily like what you like. In the end, it's up to the devs to make the games they want to make. You'll either play them because you like them or you won't. That's all there is to it. You can spout all you want on a message board about what a true MMOer is and a true MMO is but in the end it's your opinion that is all. You really come across as a jackass by the way. No offence, but I thought you'd might like to know one dude on an internet forum to another.

What you fail to understand is that the crap being made today ARENT MMOs. Ask those that love these types and they will tell you. There lobby based co-ops and nothing more. There are no more MMOs. Get over yourself and stop drinking the coolaid.

 


 

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/05/12 12:24:06 AM#522
Originally posted by Psychow

For some reason I want to watch The Princess Bride now...

 

Inigo Montoya: Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
[Inigo advances on Rugen, but stumbles into the table with sudden pain. Rugen attacks, but Inigo parries and rises to his feet again]
Inigo Montoya: Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die.
[Rugen attacks again, Inigo parries more fiercely, gaining strength]
Inigo Montoya: Hello! My name is Inigo Montoya! You killed my father! Prepare to die!
Count Rugen: Stop saying that!
[Rugen attacks, twice. Inigo avoids and wounds Rugen in both shoulders, the same spots where he wounded Inigo. Inigo attacks, bellowing:]
Inigo Montoya: HELLO! MY NAME IS INIGO MONTOYA! YOU KILLED MY FATHER! PREPARE TO DIE!
[Inigo corners Count Rugen, knocks his sword aside, and slashes his cheek, giving him a scar just like Inigo's]
Inigo Montoya: Offer me money.
Count Rugen: Yes!
Inigo Montoya: Power, too, promise me that.
[He slashes his other cheek]
Count Rugen: All that I have and more. Please...
Inigo Montoya: Offer me anything I ask for.
Count Rugen: Anything you want...
[Rugen knocks Inigo's sword aside and lunges. But Inigo traps his arm and aims his sword at Rugen's stomach]
Inigo Montoya: I want my father back, you son of a bitch!
[He runs Count Rugen through and shoves him back against the table. Rugen falls to the floor, dead]

 

/cheer!!!


LOL this all day. Very good sir. Believe it or not but The Princess Bride is one HUGE reason im with my wife of 16 years.

 

Got a call to come over to this girls house that wanted to hook up with one of my boys and djr told me her cuz was there and wanted to meet someone. So i show up and lay on the charm. At some point during the night someone said "STOP IT NOW I MEAN IT" and i said "ANYONE WANT A PEANUT?" She fell in love wtih me right then and there =)

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

8/05/12 12:56:41 AM#523
Originally posted by kantseeme
 

What you fail to understand is that the crap being made today ARENT MMOs. Ask those that love these types and they will tell you. There lobby based co-ops and nothing more. There are no more MMOs. Get over yourself and stop drinking the coolaid.

 


 

I love modern mmos (WoW, RIFT, SWTOR etc) and I will tell you 'yes they are MMOs.'

You don't think so?

That's fine but you shouting 'This is what an MMO IS!' is pointless.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3088

I am more than some of my parts

8/05/12 1:02:22 AM#524
Well I wouldn't say that it's dead, but the Sandbox genre is definately not healthy.  Maybe some of the new sandboxes will breathe some life back into the whole sandbox genre.  

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

8/05/12 1:05:43 AM#525
Originally posted by eyelolled
Well I wouldn't say that it's dead, but the Sandbox genre is definately not healthy.  Maybe some of the new sandboxes will breathe some life back into the whole sandbox genre.  

I disagree.

Sandbox (with EVE Online leading the charge with 400k) are doing better than ever.

Are they on par (in terms of $$$ / sub number) with 'themeparks'?

No they are not, but there are more subs in sandbox mmos than ever before.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  eyelolled

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/13/10
Posts: 3088

I am more than some of my parts

8/05/12 1:10:22 AM#526
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by eyelolled
Well I wouldn't say that it's dead, but the Sandbox genre is definately not healthy.  Maybe some of the new sandboxes will breathe some life back into the whole sandbox genre.  

I disagree.

Sandbox (with EVE Online leading the charge with 400k) are doing better than ever.

Are they on par (in terms of $$$ / sub number) with 'themeparks'?

No they are not, but there are more subs in sandbox mmos than ever before.

Sure Eve is doing reasonably well, but you can't deny that there is a definate cry for more quality sandboxes.

All of my posts are either intelligent, thought provoking, funny, satirical, sarcastic or intentionally disrespectful. Take your pick.

  travamars

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/10
Posts: 452

8/05/12 1:24:21 AM#527
Originally posted by chilipin
This has turned into a FLAME thread, to much hate!

Yeah but they wont lock it because there are'nt too many sales invloved for them to do anytrhing. The'll bann you for a popular game.

Or ignore you for a semi-popular game. Its all about profits here.

 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3563

8/05/12 1:25:53 AM#528
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by eyelolled
Well I wouldn't say that it's dead, but the Sandbox genre is definately not healthy.  Maybe some of the new sandboxes will breathe some life back into the whole sandbox genre.  

I disagree.

Sandbox (with EVE Online leading the charge with 400k) are doing better than ever.

Are they on par (in terms of $$$ / sub number) with 'themeparks'?

No they are not, but there are more subs in sandbox mmos than ever before.

Sure Eve is doing reasonably well, but you can't deny that there is a definate cry for more quality sandboxes.

More are on the horizon, like Archage / Repopulation etc

We have more people playing Sandbox MMOs and more actual Sandbox MMOs as well.

Same applies to themeparks.

That's why this thread's title is factually wrong. :)

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  travamars

Novice Member

Joined: 11/14/10
Posts: 452

8/05/12 1:29:59 AM#529
No its really  dead.
  User Deleted
8/05/12 6:32:42 AM#530
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Hurvart

 

EVE's virtual world is considered "interesting", yet its travel is still 5-15 minutes of mostly-AFK non-gameplay.  So I'm not sure we can say travel will automatically be interesting if the world is interesting.

...unless you're implying that because travel consistently is 5-15 minutes of non-gameplay that means EVE's world isn't interesting.  I suppose that argument could hold some weight.

I definitely don't feel all games need to be the same.  After all, I'm suggesting something (interesting travel) that I've only seen in a single game so far.

EVE's virtual world is primarily considered interesting because of the large scale mechanics that it generates and the freedom it gives, specifically in terms of player~agent interactions. Not because it is supremely interesting to constantly interact with as a world space in and off itself.

 

You can certainly create game worlds which have those large scale mechanics and also have more consistent "interest" on the basis of the player protagonist actually directly interacting with the game world. I have given general examples as to how already, so I wont go over that again.

 

You have to be somewhat careful with the term "interesting" as some people find one thing interesting, whilst others may find it quite boring. The same goes for the term "shallow". For me you make the world more engaging, increase the interaction between the player, the game world and the agents within the game world. EVE has the model for the agent part, it has less engagment on the direct player to world part (which is primarily down to the scope/ship avatar model in fairness).

 

That direct engagement can indeed be improved upon in other games (as already demonstrated), whilst at the same time keeping the vital open, player agent interlinked systems and meta games in place.

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

8/05/12 8:00:51 AM#531
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by eyelolled
Well I wouldn't say that it's dead, but the Sandbox genre is definately not healthy.  Maybe some of the new sandboxes will breathe some life back into the whole sandbox genre.  

I disagree.

Sandbox (with EVE Online leading the charge with 400k) are doing better than ever.

Are they on par (in terms of $$$ / sub number) with 'themeparks'?

No they are not, but there are more subs in sandbox mmos than ever before.


I've got to agree with eyelolled here. Eve is great at what it does, but it's not the complete Sandbox that so many want. There's no "Avatar on the ground", so to speak. There's no "world" in the sense of boots on the ground either. But it is very good at what it does do, and offers the prime example of a way to create the massive social structure that Sandbox games can offer players. Eve gives meaning and glue to the social sphere of a truly massive player environment.

That doesn't mean you have to have PvP. But you need some way to give that meaning for a cohesion so that players want to do that on large scales. Guilds in games are only the start.

But overall, Sandbox games are suffering from lack of content due to lack of funding. And in a pretty big way.

Once upon a time....

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

8/05/12 8:09:42 AM#532
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by Hurvart

 

(snip)

You have to be somewhat careful with the term "interesting" as some people find one thing interesting, whilst others may find it quite boring. The same goes for the term "shallow". For me you make the world more engaging, increase the interaction between the player, the game world and the agents within the game world. EVE has the model for the agent part, it has less engagment on the direct player to world part (which is primarily down to the scope/ship avatar model in fairness).

 

That direct engagement can indeed be improved upon in other games (as already demonstrated), whilst at the same time keeping the vital open, player agent interlinked systems and meta games in place.

That "engagement" with the entire rest of the game is what's missing. Interaction with the surroundings, with the other players, and with all that happens in the game world.

In today's games, you just aren't a part of anything more than your own character. The rest doesn't matter.

The seeker of wisdom climbs the mountain to it's peak to ask the venerable old sage at the summit a simple but deeply unsettling question. A question that many have asked themselves throughout history.

"Master, what is the meaning of life" he asked.

The old monk raised his aging bald head and looked upon the seeker. His reply would shake him to his core.

"Stop playing Themeparks and you might find out."

Once upon a time....

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/05/12 8:37:30 AM#533
Originally posted by travamars
Originally posted by chilipin
This has turned into a FLAME thread, to much hate!

Yeah but they wont lock it because there are'nt too many sales invloved for them to do anytrhing. The'll bann you for a popular game.

Or ignore you for a semi-popular game. Its all about profits here.

 


Maybe it will make the spotlight section on MMOWFT. Shed some light on the subject.

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/05/12 8:40:15 AM#534
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by kantseeme
 

What you fail to understand is that the crap being made today ARENT MMOs. Ask those that love these types and they will tell you. There lobby based co-ops and nothing more. There are no more MMOs. Get over yourself and stop drinking the coolaid.

 


 

I love modern mmos (WoW, RIFT, SWTOR etc) and I will tell you 'yes they are MMOs.'

You don't think so?

That's fine but you shouting 'This is what an MMO IS!' is pointless.


WoW stoped being one with WotLK. RIFT stoped being one with 1.4 patch. SWTOR i dont believe ever was one.

  ThemePork

Novice Member

Joined: 11/29/11
Posts: 317

Pork, it's like beef but not quite.

8/05/12 8:50:56 AM#535

The real question is:  are these new MMOs really MMOs?

To me the answer is no. There's absolutely nothing "massively multiplayer" about them other than your standard "large" persistent PvP zone that all games seem to have now (usually just tossed in there as an after thought to quiet down the OWPvP fans).

So in a sense, yes massively multiplayer online role playing games are dead due to all the abusive instancing, sharding and other counter nature segregations.

Planetside 2, now THAT is an MMORPG. Large seamless persistent world with thousands of players in the same playing field.

edit: minus 10 internetz for not reading the posts just before mine...

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/05/12 11:07:06 AM#536
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by eyelolled
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by eyelolled
Well I wouldn't say that it's dead, but the Sandbox genre is definately not healthy.  Maybe some of the new sandboxes will breathe some life back into the whole sandbox genre.  

I disagree.

Sandbox (with EVE Online leading the charge with 400k) are doing better than ever.

Are they on par (in terms of $$$ / sub number) with 'themeparks'?

No they are not, but there are more subs in sandbox mmos than ever before.

Sure Eve is doing reasonably well, but you can't deny that there is a definate cry for more quality sandboxes.

More are on the horizon, like Archage / Repopulation etc

We have more people playing Sandbox MMOs and more actual Sandbox MMOs as well.

Same applies to themeparks.

That's why this thread's title is factually wrong. :)

Theamparks arent even Theamparks anymore. Dont even have to go to the park to ride the rides. They just strap you into a VR helm and whoosh. Off you go to the next VR ride.

 

And to say that sandboxs are doin well isent right. to menton AA and repop is to say the market itself is crying out for these sandboxs today because the market is saturated with these watered down Miller 64 verions of MMOs.

 

Thats why your seeing an influx of sanboxes being made. Not because the sandbox market is doin well. It because the genre as a whole is falling apart and needs to get back to its roots.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/05/12 11:14:38 AM#537
Originally posted by bunnyhopper 

"EVE's virtual world is primarily considered interesting because of the large scale mechanics that it generates and the freedom it gives, specifically in terms of player~agent interactions. Not because it is supremely interesting to constantly interact with as a world space in and off itself."

I think we can agree I'm aware of this, given that EVE is one of the strongest examples of the exact type of shallow travel I'm criticizing.  The state of travel in EVE is in part the basis of my critique on dull travel.

"You have to be somewhat careful with the term "interesting" as some people find one thing interesting, whilst others may find it quite boring. The same goes for the term "shallow". For me you make the world more engaging, increase the interaction between the player, the game world and the agents within the game world. EVE has the model for the agent part, it has less engagment on the direct player to world part (which is primarily down to the scope/ship avatar model in fairness)."

I hope we can also agree that EVE's travel can't really be considered "interesting" by any stretch, given that 99% of the time nothing eventful happens and you've only spent 5-15 minutes watching your ship jump.

The 1% of the time may be really interesting -- possibly even interesting enough for some to stick through potentially hours of uninteresting travel to experience, and still consider it worth it -- but travel itself definitely isn't.

"That direct engagement can indeed be improved upon in other games (as already demonstrated), whilst at the same time keeping the vital open, player agent interlinked systems and meta games in place."

Right, which is what I've been arguing in favor of the whole time.  Deep+Deep is better than Deep+Shallow. (At least when it comes to mandatory game mechanics.  With optional ones, shallow/zen activities can be fine.)

 

  User Deleted
8/05/12 11:48:13 AM#538
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by bunnyhopper 

"EVE's virtual world is primarily considered interesting because of the large scale mechanics that it generates and the freedom it gives, specifically in terms of player~agent interactions. Not because it is supremely interesting to constantly interact with as a world space in and off itself."

I think we can agree I'm aware of this, given that EVE is one of the strongest examples of the exact type of shallow travel I'm criticizing.  The state of travel in EVE is in part the entire basis of my critique on dull travel.

"You have to be somewhat careful with the term "interesting" as some people find one thing interesting, whilst others may find it quite boring. The same goes for the term "shallow". For me you make the world more engaging, increase the interaction between the player, the game world and the agents within the game world. EVE has the model for the agent part, it has less engagment on the direct player to world part (which is primarily down to the scope/ship avatar model in fairness)."

I hope we can also agree that EVE's travel can't really be considered "interesting" by any stretch, given that 99% of the time nothing eventful happens and you've only spent 5-15 minutes watching your ship jump.

The 1% of the time may be really interesting -- possibly even interesting enough for some to stick through potentially hours of uninteresting travel to experience, and still consider it worth it -- but travel itself definitely isn't.

"That direct engagement can indeed be improved upon in other games (as already demonstrated), whilst at the same time keeping the vital open, player agent interlinked systems and meta games in place."

Right, which is what I've been arguing in favor of the whole time.  Deep+Deep is better than Deep+Shallow. (At least when it comes to mandatory game mechanics.  With optional ones, shallow/zen activities can be fine.)

 


You cited EVE's world as one which is considered interesting by some and then used this on order to make the case that therefore making a game world interesting does not make the travel interesting due to the fact quite a bit of EVE's travel is not that interesting on a direct basis. I merely pointed out the flaw in that reasoning by demonstrating that the EVE game world is engaging on a meta level and not massively on a direct level. So increasing engagement in that element would increase "interest".

 

The point I was making was that it would be far, far better to actually debate on purely the mechanical level and the ability to interact and engage with mechanics. As opposed to using such highly subjective terms like "interest" and "fun". But yes, as I have mentioned before, travel can be vastly improved via direct engagement with the game world (not just it's agents).

 

Which is clealy what I have been advocating, I feel the debate has arisen due to conflicting methods of adding that depth. I have strongly advocated generating it via interacting with the game world without needing to ram in extra buttons, skills, minigames etc. If you are not actually against that (which you seemed to be originally), then fair enough, there is nothing to debate really.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/05/12 12:10:02 PM#539
Originally posted by Charas

The real question is:  are these new MMOs really MMOs?

To me the answer is no. There's absolutely nothing "massively multiplayer" about them other than your standard "large" persistent PvP zone that all games seem to have now (usually just tossed in there as an after thought to quiet down the OWPvP fans).

So in a sense, yes massively multiplayer online role playing games are dead due to all the abusive instancing, sharding and other counter nature segregations.

Planetside 2, now THAT is an MMORPG. Large seamless persistent world with thousands of players in the same playing field.

edit: minus 10 internetz for not reading the posts just before mine...

I regularly see 60+ player rift events in Rift.  Every day.

You don't call Modern Warfare 2 an RPG just because it has RPG elements, do you?  So then why would you call Planetside 2 a MMORPG when it's a MMOFPS?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19753

8/05/12 1:36:32 PM#540
Originally posted by kantseeme
Originally posted by TruthXHurts
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by bunnyhopper
At no point have I suggested that simply making it impossible to AFK is a good idea. I have posited dynamic, engaging and interesting worlds, where the player is actively invovled in interesting decision making whilst moving through said worlds on a number of levels. At the same time retaining all the benefits and interlinked systems an open, dynamic and engaging game world can have. All without the need for superfluous skills, minigames or instancing.

 

If someone wants to try and AFK that or numlock walk through that they are welcome to try it, if they are walking from their house to a shop 500m away in the same town they most likely will be able to AFK it. If they only want to move just outside of town, again they may well be able to try it. But further? Well they can try it, the option is there to give it a go, but it really wont end well.

I never implied you did.

But that's the reality of travel in these games.  It's a shallow system but you can't fully AFK.

Because travel is shallow it'd be better if you could AFK, because then players would be free to ignore the shallow system.  It still wouldn't be a good overall system, because you'd basically be saying "go do something else for a while, this part of the game isn't fun".

Hence the need for deep travel, so players aren't even considering AFKing.  Instead they're actively traveling for travel's sake because travel is really fun to do.  Just like Puzzle Pirates (where I seriously did nothing but travel and had no other goals for the game, yet completely enjoyed my time because travel was a fun game.)

I'd like ot see a "Faster" travel system implemented. Maybe make it a monthly perk you pay fo rin a cash shop that let's you take a train, boat, or airship to your destination. It should by no means be instant. Turning MMO's into Lobby based deathmatch games is NOT helping the genre.

 

In fact I am renaming the entire Genre. 

 

Persistent Lobby RPG.

Cant be a RPG when no one role plays. I like the term i came up with. Its alittle wordy but i think it works.

CLFGwGC

C (co-op) L (Lobby) F (Faceroll) G (Game) with G (Group) C (Content)

 

ARPG means combat + progression these days.

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