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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3250

Poacher killer.

8/04/12 4:35:20 PM#481

It would appear that no matter how well things are presented on the table, some concepts are simply going to elude some people for a variety of reasons. Lack of any real experience to go on is one (probably the case here), the desire to be right (all the damn time) and arguing for the sake of arguing is another.

Throughout my time in the genre, some of the most interesting and memorable gameplay moments I've come across have occurred while travelling. I never would have experienced any of these things with magical abracadabra instant travel, or any sort of abomination of travel.

Believing that you're right (even if you really really really believe it) does not necessarily make it so.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

8/04/12 4:36:04 PM#482
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If people say they enjoy travelling then they enjoy it, you are being rude and ignorant and arrogant saying otherwise. I hate pvp arena but I'm self aware enough to know it is because it is because it does not suit my desires. Travel is fun for som, it's also a tiny part of any game. Stop trying to dictate to others what they should enjoy.

Er, was this to me?

I haven't been telling people what they like.

I've been pointing out that there are two ways for shallow game mechanics to go: either they'll be eliminated (fast travel), or they could be improved (deeper travel.)  Clearly it's in travel-lovers' interest to keep travel around, so they should be in favor of the latter solution.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3250

Poacher killer.

8/04/12 4:42:34 PM#483
Originally posted by Bladestrom
If people say they enjoy travelling then they enjoy it, you are being rude and ignorant and arrogant saying otherwise. I hate pvp arena but I'm self aware enough to know it is because it is because it does not suit my desires. Travel is fun for som, it's also a tiny part of any game. Stop trying to dictate to others what they should enjoy.

Amen, well said. It's really gone beyond ridiculous at this point. Enough is enough already.

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3127

8/04/12 4:49:13 PM#484
Axe not to you, it's a general comment about those that try to empose their desires on others.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3127

8/04/12 4:51:21 PM#485
Although I like travel just as it is :). But equally just like anything, everything is open to improvement, it's what drives us humans as a species:)

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  Hurvart

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/10
Posts: 566

8/04/12 4:59:18 PM#486
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by kantseeme

Traveling IS game play. To forsake it because some find it boring or tediaus is rediculous. Insta porting to places are killing these game worlds by taking people out of it plain and simple. If you cant spare  5 - 10 mins of travle time to get to a location then MMOs arent what you should be playing.

Dont care if you like what i have to say or not. Getting tired of these "give you everything now now now" MMOs. These games have be come nothing but pieces of shit lobby based co - op single player games. There not MMOs anymore. There not even RPGs anymore. If iv pissed you off oh well.

Gameplay is interesting decisions.

Watching your character's run animation while steering around mobs is only interesting to very new gamers, and quickly becomes old.  Because it's a very shallow game mechanic.  It's the Tic Tac Toe of MMORPGs.

You can pretend MMOs aren't what I should be playing, but the desires of players to engage in gameplay and not have their time thrown away by game developers are overwhelmingly changing how these games work to the way I prefer.

So you of all people should be in favor of the gameplay-in-travel idea I'm suggesting here -- because the inevitable alternative is instant travel everwhere!

Games which completely waste players' time with non-gameplay simply don't fly, and they'll always lose out in the end to games which are dense experiences involving deep, interesting decisions.  You'll still need optional downtime or "zen" activities, but none of those should be required activities unless you're building something super casual like FarmVille where the only point is to be a relaxation activity.


Some players enjoy travelling in games. They dont want teleports and lobbys that makes it possible to start killing mobs without "wasting time". Because for some players its not a waste of time. They like it... They dont want to AFK and return to the computer when travelling is finished. And  if there is a chance something will happen you cant go AFK. Because the character will often be dead when you return...

If I need to run for 15 min from A to B it should be possible I will be attacked and that I will need to defend myself. I think it should happen most of the time. And if there is also a harch death penalty and long corpse runs going AFK will be a very bad idea... This makes travelling interesting. It is somewhat dangerous even if you will just run most of the time. But there is no action and if you need to fight it will only be a small part of the travelling experience. But you will also be able to kill more mobs if you attack them instead of trying to avoid them. I mean you can stop every minute and kill a mob if you prefer that. Or you can avoid most or all of them.

And it is gameplay in a "virtual world game"  intended for people that like it. Even if action gamers think it is a waste of time. And I think it makes sense that people should play games they like. There is no reason to play a game that you think is boring. But its important to recognize that other players like the features or game design that you think makes it boring. They are different and like the game for what it is.

  jadan2000

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/06
Posts: 509

8/04/12 5:11:01 PM#487

i have to say, this has been on my mind for a while. i think this genre has taken a turn for the worst. I rememebr a time when Mmo games were something you could get totally immersed in. You could be just as involved in the beggining as the end. there was no end..... It seems like now this genre has gotten so linear that you really just cant stick with a game longer then a year. this genre has become a cookie cutter core with little uniqueness for end game.... Its time for this genre to learn that in order to make a true next generations game they must:

1. rewordk the core mechanics. we need something new. SWTOR was a prime example of this

2. Mix sandbox with thempark gameplay: you can make most of the leveling themepark if you like.. but once the end game comes in... There is nothing that can keep players involved liek sandbox mechanics... nothing!!! So endgame should have both sandbox and thempark mechanics!

3. fluff. you need something other then combat to keep people happy in a game. they need something else to do then combat.

  TangentPoint

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1100

The "Real Game" begins at character creation.

8/04/12 5:13:23 PM#488
Originally posted by Gurpslord

 

The problem is back in the days of people playing for years at a time in giant virtual worlds there were very few options.  People didn't really have a choice.  If you wanted to play a game online with friends it was take it or leave it.  Things evolved from meridian, to UO, to EQ etc etc etc.  The industry isn't dead, nor is the genre.  It simply changed to suit the people playing it.  Yes, that's right.  The old schoolers are now the minority, they ushered in the genre and made it mainstream, thus a lot more people began paying attention and getting involved and the needs and wants of those consumers eventually out weighed the needs and wants of the die hard originals.

So, there it is.  Things won't turn around, they're ever getting more aggressively inclusive to fit more and more people, meaning that the good old days of sandboxy yore are not likely to rear up too often or even too successfully.

I see that argument a lot, the whole "there weren't as many options, so you had to play one of those".

Nonsense. People always had the choice to not play any of them at all. In fact, during the time period we're talking about, MMORPGs were a very niche market - far more so than they are now. So, the idea that people only played the older MMOs for "lack of more options" is a fallacy that doesn't hold up. If there are only 3 seafood restaurants in town, and all of them serve terrible food, people aren't going to feel "oh well, I guess we have to eat at one of them, since they're the only choices we have!". They're going to go to the steak house down the road instead where they know they can at least get a good burger. Or they consider some other acceptable option.

Further, there were a nice selection of MMOs leading up to WoW's popularization and resulting decline of the genre from what it was. WoW ushered in, what, the 3rd generation of MMOs? The 4th maybe? Before WoW, you had EQ, EQ2 (was originally developed more in line with 1st and 2nd gen MMOs), FFXI, Anarchy Online, Dark Age of Camelot, Shadowbane, Asheron's Call, Eve Online, Lineage, Lineage 2 and a bunch of others I know I'm forgetting at the moment. There weren't hundreds of options, but every major genre was pretty well accounted for.

Also, I'd say around that time, it's the FPS and Action RPG genre that had more people's attention. So if people wanted to play with friends, they could pick up a game of Quake 2 or Unreal Tournament, or some other game of the time, they could meet up with people in Diablo 2. They could log into a Persistent World for Neverwinter Nights and hang out on there. In that light, your argument that "people had few choices if they wanted to hang out with friends online" is also rather weak. There were plenty of options for people to play with friends online. They weren't all MMOs.

Also, you can't forget that not everyone chose to play an online game specifically to hang out and play with friends online. I know I never did. Many people I met along the way - the majority, easily - didn't come into those games with friends. They started playing them because the game itself interested them.

WoW was a short-term blessing for the genre that made way for a long-term curse. The blessing was making more people aware that the genre even existed. Many people didn't know what a MMORPG was, or that WoW even was one, prior to playing it. They weren't interested in playing the Warcraft MMORPG. They were interested in playing the next Warcraft game, whatever it was. It was a long-term curse in terms of exactly what the OP is talking about.

Everything that made the genre great and appealing and enticing to players, enough to inspire the people at Blizzard to make WoW in the first place, has all but been removed from the experience, or rendered superfluous and unnecessary.

I agree with the OP, the MMORPG genre is pretty much dead. The "MMO" part is really all that exists anymore. And I'm not even entirely convinced of the first 'M' either.

 

 

My philosophy on MMORPGs:

Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game.

Don't worry about levels. Just play.

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/04/12 5:21:22 PM#489
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by kantseeme

Traveling IS game play. To forsake it because some find it boring or tediaus is rediculous. Insta porting to places are killing these game worlds by taking people out of it plain and simple. If you cant spare  5 - 10 mins of travle time to get to a location then MMOs arent what you should be playing.

Dont care if you like what i have to say or not. Getting tired of these "give you everything now now now" MMOs. These games have be come nothing but pieces of shit lobby based co - op single player games. There not MMOs anymore. There not even RPGs anymore. If iv pissed you off oh well.

Gameplay is interesting decisions.

Wrong.

Watching your character's run animation while steering around mobs is only interesting to very new gamers, and quickly becomes old.  Because it's a very shallow game mechanic.  It's the Tic Tac Toe of MMORPGs.

Wrong again. Its not shallow or Tic Tac Toe. Its travel. Get over yourself.

You can pretend MMOs aren't what I should be playing, but the desires of players to engage in gameplay and not have their time thrown away by game developers are overwhelmingly changing how these games work to the way I prefer.

True MMOs are NOT what you perfer.

 

Refer to the part where i said " then MMOs arent what you should be playing" Travel IS part of a TRUE MMO experiance. Emersion in the world you inhabit. Not sitting in town clicking a npc to sigh up for instanced grouping. Then being magicly wisked away to the instance. Rinse repeat.

 

You dont want a MMO. You want a co-op lobby single player game with group content. Its called D3.

So you of all people should be in favor of the gameplay-in-travel idea I'm suggesting here -- because the inevitable alternative is instant travel everwhere!

Im all for anything that adds emersion to the game. But dont for a sec make me believe just the act of travleing from A to B isent gameplay.

 

You can kill mobs on the way to your next location. You can harvest. You can stop to help someone that looks like there in need of help. Stop to look at the goods of a traveling merch. The list goes on.

Games which completely waste players' time with non-gameplay simply don't fly, and they'll always lose out in the end to games which are dense experiences involving deep, interesting decisions.  You'll still need optional downtime or "zen" activities, but none of those should be required activities unless you're building something super casual like FarmVille where the only point is to be a relaxation activity.

What? What games are "dense experiences involving deep. interesting decisions" when it comes to travel?  that games with normal travel is loosing out to? downtime or zen activites? Its almost like your just typing out nonsence just so you can read it out loud to yourself. Shit makes no sence.

 

Travel is travel. Nothing more. Its what you make of it. Just like if you were to get in your car and drive 3 states over. Will your travel be stright forward or will you stop to see the sights?

 

Could stop off to get gas and see some hot ass girls skirt get blown up over her head. Could see a toothless local get in a fight with his sister/cousin/wife. The journy is what you make it. Dont rely on the devs to make your game experiance more enjoyable. How lazy are you.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/04/12 5:21:58 PM#490
Originally posted by kantseeme
 

Traveling IS game play. To forsake it because some find it boring or tediaus is rediculous. Insta porting to places are killing these game worlds by taking people out of it plain and simple. If you cant spare  5 - 10 mins of travle time to get to a location then MMOs arent what you should be playing.

 

Dont care if you like what i have to say or not. Getting tired of these "give you everything now now now" MMOs. These games have be come nothing but pieces of shit lobby based co - op single player games. There not MMOs anymore. There not even RPGs anymore. If iv pissed you off oh well.

How arrogant. I don't WANT to spare 5-10 or even 1 min doing stuff i considered BORING in a GAME.

And not only i am playing MMOs, i am playing them the way i want .. with LFD, LFR and fast travel. And devs are supporting those options. Deal with it.

 

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/04/12 5:26:04 PM#491
Originally posted by Vyeth

Hip hop is dead.. Classic action movies are dead.. Sidescrolling beat em ups are dead.. Michael Jackson, the king of pop, is dead.. 

MMORPG's, however, are not dead.. They have simply evolved.. Just like everything else in life that follows evolution cycles, you either adapt or perish..


What you consider MMOs by todays standerds arent really MMOs at all. Dont take my word for it. look it up. Theres no evolving goin on here. Its a MUTATION.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

8/04/12 5:27:53 PM#492
Originally posted by kantseeme
Originally posted by Vyeth

Hip hop is dead.. Classic action movies are dead.. Sidescrolling beat em ups are dead.. Michael Jackson, the king of pop, is dead.. 

MMORPG's, however, are not dead.. They have simply evolved.. Just like everything else in life that follows evolution cycles, you either adapt or perish..


What you consider MMOs by todays standerds arent really MMOs at all. Dont take my word for it. look it up. Theres no evolving goin on here. Its a MUTATION.

That is just semantics. Whatever you call them .. are better (for me) games than the old MMOs.

If Gamestop and all the game reviewers are calling WOW a MMO, are calling TSW a MMO, are calling GW2 a MMO, that is the label i will use.

 

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3127

8/04/12 5:31:13 PM#493
You love lgd, lfretc fine. Why does that mean people who love travelling should not be allowed to enjoy what they dO as well ? In fax they are not mutually exclusive.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist)

Now playing Wildstar, AOW 3

  User Deleted
8/04/12 5:34:18 PM#494
Originally posted by Axehilt
Originally posted by bunnyhopper

Ironically it's not a step in the right direction to point out that travel isn't actually AFKable.  It's psuedo-AFKable.  And that makes things worse.  Because you can't simply step away from the game and do something else.  No, you don't have that player freedom.  You're instead forced to sit there making virtually no interesting decisions.  It's even worse than if the activity was actually AFKable.

As long as the "engagement via the gaming world" you're talking about solves that psuedo-AFK situation, then that's a real solution.  Otherwise we end up with an EVE, DF, etc game where sure 1% of the time something dynamic happens, but the overwhelming majority of your travel time is utterly shallow non-gameplay.

So the engagement via the gaming world would need to be consistently deep/engaging system to actually address the problem.

 

At no point have I suggested that simply making it impossible to AFK is a good idea. I have posited dynamic, engaging and interesting worlds, where the player is actively invovled in interesting decision making whilst moving through said worlds on a number of levels. At the same time retaining all the benefits and interlinked systems an open, dynamic and engaging game world can have. All without the need for superfluous skills, minigames or instancing.

 

If someone wants to try and AFK that or numlock walk through that they are welcome to try it, if they are walking from their house to a shop 500m away in the same town they most likely will be able to AFK it. If they only want to move just outside of town, again they may well be able to try it. But further? Well they can try it, the option is there to give it a go, but it really wont end well.

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/04/12 5:37:59 PM#495
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by kantseeme
 

Traveling IS game play. To forsake it because some find it boring or tediaus is rediculous. Insta porting to places are killing these game worlds by taking people out of it plain and simple. If you cant spare  5 - 10 mins of travle time to get to a location then MMOs arent what you should be playing.

 

Dont care if you like what i have to say or not. Getting tired of these "give you everything now now now" MMOs. These games have be come nothing but pieces of shit lobby based co - op single player games. There not MMOs anymore. There not even RPGs anymore. If iv pissed you off oh well.

How arrogant. I don't WANT to spare 5-10 or even 1 min doing stuff i considered BORING in a GAME.

And not only i am playing MMOs, i am playing them the way i want .. with LFD, LFR and fast travel. And devs are supporting those options. Deal with it.

 

Then dont play! stay out of a genre that supports emerision and not instant rewards. Its your kind thats killing this genre not helping it.

 

ANd just fyi... YOUR NOT PAYING MMOS! i told you already what your playing. co-op lobby singel players with group content game. Other wise known as CLSPwGCG. Doesent look like MMORPG to me. Like i said.

 

WHEN GW2 falls the tide will change and youll be looking in just like those of us that have been doin for what 8 years now? Will not feel good ill tell you

  kantseeme

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 739

8/04/12 5:46:57 PM#496
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by kantseeme
Originally posted by Vyeth

Hip hop is dead.. Classic action movies are dead.. Sidescrolling beat em ups are dead.. Michael Jackson, the king of pop, is dead.. 

MMORPG's, however, are not dead.. They have simply evolved.. Just like everything else in life that follows evolution cycles, you either adapt or perish..


What you consider MMOs by todays standerds arent really MMOs at all. Dont take my word for it. look it up. Theres no evolving goin on here. Its a MUTATION.

That is just semantics. Whatever you call them .. are better (for me) games than the old MMOs.

If Gamestop and all the game reviewers are calling WOW a MMO, are calling TSW a MMO, are calling GW2 a MMO, that is the label i will use.

 

SEMANTICS

 

 

You can keep talking all you want. Not making youeself look very good at all. No real MMOer today considers these POSs true MMOs. Think what ever you like but in the end you know it to be true. You yourself said what these mmos of today have be come, and its not what makes up a real mmo.

 

Waitng on ban from someone reporting me. Seems to be the thing to do these days when someone doesent agree with someone else.

  Jerek_

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/08/04
Posts: 398

8/04/12 6:14:07 PM#497

I feel good about where the industry is heading for the first time in a long time honestly.  With SW:TOR's relative failure,  producers will have to take notice that simply throwing money and time at the WoW model isn't enough to create a successful game.  Meanwhile EVE has been keeping its niche of a niche market paying for years even though its characters are spaceships and its heavily pvp focused.

Developers have been looking at the MMO market as one giant group for years thanks to WoW, but that may be coming to an end.  Developers and sites like MMORPG.com can keep pushing F2P/freemium themepark cashshop games all they want and talk about the numbers of players, but thats not going to appeal to everyone.  Niche markets with deep pockets exist, all someone has to do is develop a game for them.  hell, I pay 45 dollars a month to CCP to play EVE and I'm one of the people thats never been able to truely ajust to ships over characters.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3468

8/04/12 6:19:17 PM#498
Originally posted by kantseeme
 

/snip

You can keep talking all you want. Not making youeself look very good at all. No real MMOer today considers these POSs true MMOs. Think what ever you like but in the end you know it to be true. You yourself said what these mmos of today have be come, and its not what makes up a real mmo.

 

Waitng on ban from someone reporting me. Seems to be the thing to do these days when someone doesent agree with someone else.

As someone who pushes the envelope on this site sometimes, disagreement doesn't get you banned.

 

Having said that, lets have a look at this post.

1. Who is a 'real MMOer'?

2. What's a 'true MMO'?

So you are the sole judge of what's a 'real' MMO player and MMO game? How does that work?

Speaking for other people is why your post doesn't make sense and why it won't be taken seriously.

 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Havekk

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/14/08
Posts: 1352

8/04/12 6:20:20 PM#499
Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

Didnt get off for me. Been having fun since 2001.

  TruthXHurts

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/10
Posts: 1640

I am here to chew bubblegum and to kick ass... and I'm all out of bubblegum!

8/04/12 6:22:07 PM#500
The Genre died with the release of the SWG NGE.

"I am not in a server with Gankers...THEY ARE IN A SERVER WITH ME!!!"

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