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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » This genre is dead

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839 posts found
  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

7/30/12 3:27:05 PM#241
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Haha right, sounds like you never played Vanguard.

Wouldn't say that if I didn't, but I did. Even the version which was deemed "this how it should've been at release". So no, you can't pull that card on me. Gave it 3 weeks. I want my money back.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Rydeson

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3157

7/30/12 4:35:37 PM#242

If you refer to the original genre of virtual world RPG's..  Yes, I think that genre is crippled and dying.. We are being forced out by the Esport console gamers demanding that MMO's play to their style of instance gaming of tier grinding... Oh well,, what are we to do.. The original genre is much smaller then this esporters..  But who knows.. it will be funny when and if the day comes these devs can find a way of atracting the "facebook" gamers ..  Then the esporters can be pushed the back burner asking  why the 50 million strong facebookers are taking over the mmorpg game world.. LOL

  dave6660

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2320

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

7/30/12 4:48:47 PM#243
Originally posted by Rydeson

If you refer to the original genre of virtual world RPG's..  Yes, I think that genre is crippled and dying.. We are being forced out by the Esport console gamers demanding that MMO's play to their style of instance gaming of tier grinding... Oh well,, what are we to do.. The original genre is much smaller then this esporters..  But who knows.. it will be funny when and if the day comes these devs can find a way of atracting the "facebook" gamers ..  Then the esporters can be pushed the back burner asking  why the 50 million strong facebookers are taking over the mmorpg game world.. LOL

I wouldn't worry too much about facebook.  Social networking sites are transitory and their customers are easily moved to the next big thing.

I'm also looking forward to making more money shorting their stock.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  ignore_me

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/11
Posts: 2034

7/30/12 4:56:33 PM#244
Originally posted by Valentina

This genre isn't dead but it is hurting, and trolling, and not supporting games cuz they're not the second coming is what's causing it. Do you think anyone will invest in making these games, and pushing the genre forward if everytime someone tries its met with so much negativity and torn to pieces by trolls? It's gotten so bad that rotten tomatoes had to shut down anonymous reviews, and are now going to heavily moderate peoples reviews of movies by requiring that they be constructive, otherwise wont be approved. This is something that unfortunately needs to take place nowadays on the internet. People ruin potential success by doing what they can to bring each title down in flames because they're miserable themselves. If you want this genre to move forward, than support it. Rome wasnt built in a day, the perfect game isn't going to come out any time soon and never has with any genre. Don't be so unreasonable and maybe more companies will invest in MMO's.

If the game itself is what made me miserable and I have a venue to vent, I'm going to do it. I also take a more Dawinian approach that only the strong should survive among games. Maybe they won't invest in and produce shit games after a few go into the gaping maw of public edification.

Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4776

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/30/12 8:24:36 PM#245


Originally posted by Valentina
This genre isn't dead but it is hurting, and trolling, and not supporting games cuz they're not the second coming is what's causing it. Do you think anyone will invest in making these games, and pushing the genre forward if everytime someone tries its met with so much negativity and torn to pieces by trolls? It's gotten so bad that rotten tomatoes had to shut down anonymous reviews, and are now going to heavily moderate peoples reviews of movies by requiring that they be constructive, otherwise wont be approved. This is something that unfortunately needs to take place nowadays on the internet. People ruin potential success by doing what they can to bring each title down in flames because they're miserable themselves. If you want this genre to move forward, than support it. Rome wasnt built in a day, the perfect game isn't going to come out any time soon and never has with any genre. Don't be so unreasonable and maybe more companies will invest in MMO's.

The list of mmos Ive purchased from '09 to present is staggering. From AAA to Indie and everything in between. The genre stopped moving forward almost a decade ago. Its moving laterally across every other genre and supporting it doesn;t seem to be helping it get out of this rut. In fact, its just reinforcing this shallow formula of turning virtual worlds into arcade games.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4776

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/30/12 8:39:16 PM#246


Originally posted by BrightestDay

Originally posted by Foomerang 100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized. If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved. MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs. Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.
haha. SWTOR and Secret World didn't save you and this is your swan song.


/whooosh

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  LordOfPit

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/10
Posts: 77

7/31/12 3:18:23 AM#247

Dear OP,

 

When I was a kid and had plenty of time and no money to worry about, I loved dreaming up stuff, building with LEGO — and I don't mean LEGO Systems but just taking LEGO blocks and using them for my own designs.

 

Now... I have a job, and I earn money by channeling my time and creative energy into products and services that others consume. Work therefore is taking away a lot of my creative energies, imagination and most importantly, my time. And so, now whenever I pick up a game, I want it to entertain me without forcing me to spend my energy and time to figure out how I want to entertain myself using the games' mechanics.

 

I'm not saying current theme-park MMO's are perfect the way they are, but I am saying more people these days are willing to pay top-dollar to companies developing theme-park MMO's rather than Sandbox ones. You can blame/thank Blizzard for that, by the way, because they've shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that the market for constant and instantly-gratifying entertainment is easier to work with, more predictable and stable than the market that exists for games offering entertainment through inhabiting a Virtual World.

 

My suggestion? Go to http://www.kickstarter.com/ and start your own Virtual World project. Perhaps you'll gain support, perhaps not. I assure you however that the experience would be more satisfying and rewarding than this thread could ever be!

 

Goold luck,

LoP.

  Garvon3

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/10
Posts: 2943

7/31/12 3:48:04 AM#248
Originally posted by LordOfPit

 

I'm not saying current theme-park MMO's are perfect the way they are, but I am saying more people these days are willing to pay top-dollar to companies developing theme-park MMO's rather than Sandbox ones.

Then how come WoW clones have all merged their servers a few months after launch and then stagnante into nothingness?

And virtual world != sandbox.

The strange idea that if its not a WoW clone its a sandbox, and that if its a virtual world then you can't play casually, needs to go away. It's perpetuated by the same short sighted WoW players who don't understand how a game without instancing would work.

  judex99

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 397

7/31/12 4:03:53 AM#249

To the OP, it died long ago.

  Lawlmonster

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/07/09
Posts: 940

Take my advice, I'm not using it anyway.

7/31/12 4:04:51 AM#250

Seriously, stick a fork in it: this bitch is done. It's bothersome to me that a mod for an FPS is doing better at recreating what it is I loved about MMO's, rather than the companies hiring experienced developers, designers, and managers from within the genre industry. Lesson learned? As far as I'm concerned, AAA MMO developlment might as well stand for Always Assume Atrocious.

"This is life! We suffer and slave and expire. That's it!" -Bernard Black (Dylan Moran)

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

7/31/12 4:20:32 AM#251
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by LordOfPit
 

Then how come WoW clones have all merged their servers a few months after launch and then stagnante into nothingness?

And virtual world != sandbox.

The strange idea that if its not a WoW clone its a sandbox, and that if its a virtual world then you can't play casually, needs to go away. It's perpetuated by the same short sighted WoW players who don't understand how a game without instancing would work.

What?! You want people to travel for hours to accomplish anything. You want people to take hours to shop and look for items. You want people to spend hours looking for the right group composition before engaging a dungeon (where they may be forced to wait for their turn).

All of those are directly against casual-friendliness. The game is not casual if it takes ages to do anything worthwhile. Casual is something where you can log in, do stuff, and log out all within 15min to half an hour.

That's why there's LFG tools, instant travel, jump-in PvP, auction house etc. -To make the game casual-friendly. Many features in virtual world is against this.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

7/31/12 5:01:25 AM#252
Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

In my observation a huge majority of players prefer an arcadey game than a virtual world. If you're patient enough you can just wait for everything to implode and prompt the genre to go back to its roots, if ever that would happen.

  Gaoxin

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/20/10
Posts: 196

7/31/12 5:13:24 AM#253
Originally posted by Foomerang

100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized.

If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved.

MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs.

Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.

Not all games are 100% combat oriented. Just look at TSW, one of the newest MMORPGs. A big part of this game is exploration and "puzzle" solving. Another good example is Guild Wars 2 where you get XP for exploration, crafting and solving certain tasks which dont involve combat (jump n run f.e.). SWTOR is a good example for a story driven game.
 

The problem you encounter after many years of gaming experience is the same most of us have to face:

your expectations rise with each game. Your pattern recognition gets better, which results in shorter suscriber times and an early awakening: "I did this before.." or "This is very similar to.."

  LordOfPit

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/10
Posts: 77

7/31/12 8:15:19 AM#254

 


Originally posted by Garvon3

 

Then how come WoW clones have all merged their servers a few months after launch and then stagnante into nothingness? And virtual world != sandbox. The strange idea that if its not a WoW clone its a sandbox, and that if its a virtual world then you can't play casually, needs to go away. It's perpetuated by the same short sighted WoW players who don't understand how a game without instancing would work.


It seems to me you basically tie-in WoW players, instancing, casual-play together in an angry rant and that's definitely not what I was talking about, sorry.

 

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2167

7/31/12 11:25:50 AM#255
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by LordOfPit
 

Then how come WoW clones have all merged their servers a few months after launch and then stagnante into nothingness?

And virtual world != sandbox.

The strange idea that if its not a WoW clone its a sandbox, and that if its a virtual world then you can't play casually, needs to go away. It's perpetuated by the same short sighted WoW players who don't understand how a game without instancing would work.

What?! You want people to travel for hours to accomplish anything. You want people to take hours to shop and look for items. You want people to spend hours looking for the right group composition before engaging a dungeon (where they may be forced to wait for their turn).

All of those are directly against casual-friendliness. The game is not casual if it takes ages to do anything worthwhile. Casual is something where you can log in, do stuff, and log out all within 15min to half an hour.

That's why there's LFG tools, instant travel, jump-in PvP, auction house etc. -To make the game casual-friendly. Many features in virtual world is against this.

Who's talking about "hours"?

Once upon a time....

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4776

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/31/12 1:46:32 PM#256


Originally posted by Gaoxin

Originally posted by Foomerang 100% combat oriented online games. Cash shops come standard. Purely developer driven content. Esport is the name of the game for pvp. Socialization has become automatized. If you were to tell me ten years ago that this is what MMORPGS would be like, I would have never even bothered to get involved. MMO versions of old console games from a decade ago. Thats what we have right now. The irony is that console games today are actually more open and diverse than these so called mmorpgs. Its a shame. I have faith in indie devs, as always. But the AAA mmo devs have really led the genre astray as of late. I wonder if it will ever get back on track.
Not all games are 100% combat oriented. Just look at TSW, one of the newest MMORPGs. A big part of this game is exploration and "puzzle" solving. Another good example is Guild Wars 2 where you get XP for exploration, crafting and solving certain tasks which dont involve combat (jump n run f.e.). SWTOR is a good example for a story driven game. 

The problem you encounter after many years of gaming experience is the same most of us have to face:

your expectations rise with each game. Your pattern recognition gets better, which results in shorter suscriber times and an early awakening: "I did this before.." or "This is very similar to.."



You only have access to combat classes and/or combat abilities. You craft items to enhance combat. You gain xp to increase stats for combat. TSW has some interesting puzzles. GW2 has some good exploration and platforming. SWTOR has an interesting interactive story. Your means to an end is always combat. Its hard to explain without a reference point. There were mmorpgs before WoW where you could make a non combat character because it was designed into the game. It wasnt a matter of "hmm, well I could avoid this and bypass that.. and then Id technically have a non combat character". No, Im talking about the option to create a completely viable class that was not combat centric. You experienced developed content that was not for combat, and you character had progression and development.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  LordOfPit

Novice Member

Joined: 12/22/10
Posts: 77

7/31/12 2:04:52 PM#257
Originally posted by Foomerang

Your means to an end is always combat.

If someone wants a racing car game, they go buy a racing care game. If they want a fishing simulation, that's what they go out and buy. If they want a game where they flap their hands in front of their TV pretending to be an Angry Bird on Kinects, I'm sure someone will make that game for them, eventually.

 

It's not just MMO's that have changed — for better and worse — it's the entire eco-system of Gaming, and over multiple platforms. And so, if it's not about combat, it's not interesting and captivating enough to bother with and the people who do bother with games that aren't combat-based, well they form their own communities around the focal point of their choice.

 

I guess developers aren't as interested in creating Virtual Worlds where people LIVE in as they once were before.

  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4776

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

 
OP  7/31/12 2:09:50 PM#258


Originally posted by LordOfPit
And so, if it's not about combat, it's not interesting and captivating enough to bother with and the people who do bother with games that aren't combat-based, well they form their own communities around the focal point of their choice.


That used to be mmorpgs. And for the record, I never said get rid of combat.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Raven

Novice Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 1985

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" Plato

7/31/12 2:48:12 PM#259
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by 3-4thElf
 

I mean 10-12 million users of something isn't a number to sneeze at, but that's the MMORPG market. You draw from there.

I would actually posit that 10-12 million users are not the western mmo market.

I realize that since WoW has roughtly that amount people like to point out that those players are just ripe for the picking for other mmo games.

Except from what I have seen from WoW players who fall in different circles than I inhabit, they aren't mmo gamres. They are acuallly WoW players.

So, the woman I worked with who was in a WoW raidign guild knew nothing about any other mmo. Nothing. Another woman I worked with at a different job who was sort of high up in the marketing department and played WoW also didnt' know much about mmos' when I got on the subject with her.

Of my few friends who play video games only 2 play an mmo. guess which one? WoW. And honestly they know nothing about any other mmo's. I met another woman at a dinner party who was an avid wow player and she knew of LOTRO. She also heard of Everquest.

This is not to say that of that 10-12 million players that none of them ever want to leave wow. But I have seen the WoW players go to other games and complain that they weren't WoW. SWToR and Aion being the two in question. And actually throw lotro into that pile.

My guess is that the western mmo market is a lot smaller than 10-12 million. And actually, of those 10-12 million, are all those western wow players or "all wow players". Because I thought the western number was something like 3 to 5 million?

 

This is absolutely spot on, lots of people I speak to, most being console gamers that play WoW, they know nothing about the genre apart from playing WoW, and they have no desire at all to play any other MMORPG. It is actually funny because the other day I was talking to someone I know that plays WoW and I showed him other games, GW2, ArchAge, EVE, Ultima Online and Lineage 2 just to show them that there is more to MMORPGs than WoW and he was completely uninterested he  just didnt care about knowing features or anything like that I didnt get more than a "that's nice" and it was quickly forgotten.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

7/31/12 2:54:54 PM#260
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Garvon3
Originally posted by LordOfPit
 

Then how come WoW clones have all merged their servers a few months after launch and then stagnante into nothingness?

And virtual world != sandbox.

The strange idea that if its not a WoW clone its a sandbox, and that if its a virtual world then you can't play casually, needs to go away. It's perpetuated by the same short sighted WoW players who don't understand how a game without instancing would work.

What?! You want people to travel for hours to accomplish anything. You want people to take hours to shop and look for items. You want people to spend hours looking for the right group composition before engaging a dungeon (where they may be forced to wait for their turn).

All of those are directly against casual-friendliness. The game is not casual if it takes ages to do anything worthwhile. Casual is something where you can log in, do stuff, and log out all within 15min to half an hour.

That's why there's LFG tools, instant travel, jump-in PvP, auction house etc. -To make the game casual-friendly. Many features in virtual world is against this.

Who's talking about "hours"?

I won't even want to travel for 10 min if it is boring. Why should i take the SAME boat ride again and again? It is a game. If i want boring commute, i just have to wake up and go to work.

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