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MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Stop all this F2P madness...

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253 posts found
  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

7/25/12 4:25:43 PM#121
Originally posted by Mephster
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by Mephster

I prefer the sub model. Can't stand when some companies nickel and dime you every step of the way. Just give me 1 fee and I'm done with it.

 Thats right!

Stop nickel and dime tactics because its better to be forced to pay $15 a month for mediocrity that being able to choose if I want to spend a nickel or a dime if I feel the need...yeah...

So you are saying WoW is mediocre ? I think not infact but there are other mmos who have switched from a sub model to a f2p model because their mmos were mediocre to begin with. Big difference.

 So you are saying WoW is the only sub game? I think not infact there are other mmos who suck donkey **** and charge money to pay it. Big difference.

Yeah, I used your own tactic against you!

  MadnessRealm

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2705

Ignorance is Bliss.

7/25/12 4:26:39 PM#122
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by Axehilt

B2P sells hype.  Any game which makes money before you start playing is encouraged to overhype their game and over-advertise it (money which doesn't actually improve the game.)

F2P sells fun.  They're not making money until you have fun and the purchases justify themselves.

So the F2P model is actually the correct incentive you want developers to have: "make something fun or else!"  And the B2P model is actually the wrong incentive "make something the will look fun in ads!"

Pretty much this.

 Pretty much every game.

Or do you believe that the sub based SWTOR, TSW or Tera was not overhyped garbage that was advertised to death?

I'd like you to not put words in my mouth. Axehilt only covered B2Ps and F2Ps, so I focused mainly on that and more precisely on the F2P point. (I know I did mention P2Ps, but that's only to compare the the amount of variety in F2Ps versus B2Ps in P2Ps).

 

To answer your question though, and at the risk of getting flamed for including TSW in this, yes, I think they're all overhyped garbage. It's a point I've covered on several threads, just not this one since its main focus was on the business model (F2P), and not the actual games themselves.  But in for a penny, in for a pound ... I'd throw GW2 in there as well.

------
Your daily dose of common sense since 2009!

  Redmantle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/16/08
Posts: 24

7/25/12 4:27:35 PM#123

All I have to say is, I remember when I bought a game and did not have to pay for a monthly sub or anything of the like> I just bought it and played it. It was my own, and I enjoyed doing just that. As for paying for new content releases, I would rather do that than pay a monthly fee, at least I am buying what I want and not something I will never use or see.

  Axehilt

Novice Member

Joined: 5/09/09
Posts: 7213

7/25/12 4:28:30 PM#124
Originally posted by rdrakken

 Pretty much every game.

Or do you believe that the sub based SWTOR, TSW or Tera was not overhyped garbage that was advertised to death?

Again:

  • If money trades hands before the product is experienced, that encourages advertising.
  • If money trades hand after the product is experienced, that encourages fun.
Remember the part where TOR, TSW, and TERA all charged money before you could play the game?  I do.  And so: advertising.
  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

7/25/12 4:32:06 PM#125
Originally posted by MadnessRealm
Originally posted by rdrakken

 Pretty much every game.

Or do you believe that the sub based SWTOR, TSW or Tera was not overhyped garbage that was advertised to death?

I'd like you to not put words in my mouth.

To answer your question though, and at the risk of getting flamed for including TSW in this, yes, I think they're all overhyped garbage. It's a point I've covered on several threads, just not this one since its main focus was on the business model (F2P), and not the actual games themselves.  But in for a penny, in for a pound ... I'd throw GW2 in there as well.

 Note the red underlined. A question is not stating your words.

I stated this because to state this is true for F2P is to hint that it is not true for other types. Thank you for clearifing for those attempting to frame F2P games as somehow being this evil thing thats going to come kill our puppies unless we stop them!

  rissies

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 162

7/25/12 4:37:53 PM#126

"You people need to realise..."  

...is a really awful way to start a reasonable discussion, you automatically alienate people with that sort of approach. Gaming forums only represent a small portion of player populations, so making this plea here likely won't have a very dramatic effect, even if people did as you ask.

I will be spending money in the GW2 cash shop btw, particularly for dyes and transmutation stones, as I like having a character that looks the way I want them to look. And also because a portion of that money will be going back into more game content, which is also important to me.

I view playing an MMO as I view any long-term IRL hobby, and even with subs or cash shops, a very inexpensive one at that.

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

7/25/12 4:39:47 PM#127
Originally posted by Axehilt

Again:

  • If money trades hands before the product is experienced, that encourages advertising.
  • If money trades hand after the product is experienced, that encourages fun.
Remember the part where TOR, TSW, and TERA all charged money before you could play the game?  I do.  And so: advertising.

 Again:

  • It doesnt mean a thing.
  • There is no proof one leads to another
  • P2P, B2P and F2P games have advertised without recieving money before release before
The very idea that somehow advertising magically takes on a nefarious meaning if a company recieves a single penny before release is...laughable at the least. and better yet, that if a company does NOT receive money before release that magically the game encourages fun is...an infraction if I say it.
  Caldicot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 394

Hobbes was right, Rousseau was wrong.

7/25/12 4:41:53 PM#128

Hey OP, spot on.

But I guess it will take a couple of years before this new generation of players and publishers realize that sub is the only way to go.

And you heard it here first!

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

  Shodanas

Elite Member

Joined: 1/05/10
Posts: 691

7/25/12 4:47:04 PM#129

To the people mocking the OP:

If the F2P model becomes the norm and the new standard how long do you think it's going to take before the in game cash shops become a necessity for the players who want to have serious progress in an MMO? Do you really have so much faith in the dev / publisher's good intentions? 

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/25/12 4:48:10 PM#130
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by Axehilt

Again:

  • If money trades hands before the product is experienced, that encourages advertising.
  • If money trades hand after the product is experienced, that encourages fun.
Remember the part where TOR, TSW, and TERA all charged money before you could play the game?  I do.  And so: advertising.

 Again:

  • It doesnt mean a thing.
  • There is no proof one leads to another
  • P2P, B2P and F2P games have advertised without recieving money before release before
The very idea that somehow advertising magically takes on a nefarious meaning if a company recieves a single penny before release is...laughable at the least. and better yet, that if a company does NOT receive money before release that magically the game encourages fun is...an infraction if I say it.

He didn't say release, he said experienced.  And I agree with it.

Any game that requires me to plunk down money before I even know if I like the game, IMO is encouraing a hyped game and not necessarily a fun game. 

Give me at the very least a trial.  I'll play it for awhile.  If I like it, then you get my money. 

B2P and P2P does not support this.  They encourage the hype. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/25/12 4:49:48 PM#131
Originally posted by Shodanas

To the people mocking the OP:

If the F2P model becomes the norm and the new standard how long do you think it's going to take before the in game cash shops become a necessity for the players who want to have serious progress in an MMO? Do you people have really so much faith in the dev / publishers good intentions? 

I have faith that the devs/publishers will not want to alienate too many people.

I have faith that some of them will try to put in super powerfull weapons items, and I have faith that those will feel the wrath of shrinking playerbases because of this. 

Good intentions have nothing to do with it IMO.  They will do what they can get away with, but they are walking a fine line. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

7/25/12 4:50:46 PM#132
Originally posted by Caldicot

Hey OP, spot on.

But I guess it will take a couple of years before this new generation of players and publishers realize that sub is the only way to go.

And you heard it here first!

LOL .. you think the clock will turn back?

Probably you will also think that we will all go back to slide rules, and give up computers, or go back to horse riding instead of using cars.

  GhostGeisha

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/10
Posts: 296

7/25/12 4:53:21 PM#133

I'm DONE with sub games. DONE.

B2P seems fair to me so im happy with it! F2P can be good too but it depends abit on the company behind it and how far the Shops/P2W goes.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/25/12 4:54:19 PM#134
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Caldicot

Hey OP, spot on.

But I guess it will take a couple of years before this new generation of players and publishers realize that sub is the only way to go.

And you heard it here first!

LOL .. you think the clock will turn back?

Probably you will also think that we will all go back to slide rules, and give up computers, or go back to horse riding instead of using cars.

@Caldicot.  Probably not.  I would venture to bet that a great many of the ones pushing the f2p and b2p are people like myself and narisseldon.  People that played the old games and have decided that many/most p2p games just don't offer better value than many/most f2p (old or new doesn't matter).

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  rdrakken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/15/12
Posts: 435

7/25/12 4:57:53 PM#135
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

He didn't say release, he said experienced.  And I agree with it.

Any game that requires me to plunk down money before I even know if I like the game, IMO is encouraing a hyped game and not necessarily a fun game. 

Give me at the very least a trial.  I'll play it for awhile.  If I like it, then you get my money. 

B2P and P2P does not support this.  They encourage the hype. 

 Experienced by WHOM?

Do you know how many people were in WoW Beta and how many pre-ordered it? Most of them never experienced it so that means WoW falls into what he is talking about. More over, no F2P game costs MONEY so no F2P falls into it because you never have to give them money or buy the game. Now lets go back in time, say to...Asherons Call and EverQuest...both had pre-orders and both had low population Beta testing.

So...where is the line drawn? Pre-ordering places money into the hands of the company before release, it can be done by people who never experienced the game, and in most cases is JUST THAT...so does this mean ALL MMORPGs falls into what he said? I dont know...one person says one thing, then when backed into the corner with counter points someone comes along and tries to change the meaning.

Either way, the MMO world does not fit into a nice neat little box created by someones head.

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1416

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

7/25/12 4:57:54 PM#136
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by Axehilt

Again:

  • If money trades hands before the product is experienced, that encourages advertising.
  • If money trades hand after the product is experienced, that encourages fun.
Remember the part where TOR, TSW, and TERA all charged money before you could play the game?  I do.  And so: advertising.

 Again:

  • It doesnt mean a thing.
  • There is no proof one leads to another
  • P2P, B2P and F2P games have advertised without recieving money before release before
The very idea that somehow advertising magically takes on a nefarious meaning if a company recieves a single penny before release is...laughable at the least. and better yet, that if a company does NOT receive money before release that magically the game encourages fun is...an infraction if I say it.

He didn't say release, he said experienced.  And I agree with it.

Any game that requires me to plunk down money before I even know if I like the game, IMO is encouraing a hyped game and not necessarily a fun game. 

Give me at the very least a trial.  I'll play it for awhile.  If I like it, then you get my money. 

B2P and P2P does not support this.  They encourage the hype. 

 I remember back in the eighties, I would drive 40min to a store called "Software City" where I could sit down and play any game that I was interested in purchasing. It's amazing how good some of those games were, while fitting on a single 3.5" floppy.

 Ah... the good ole days

Zenimax kicked my dog

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2883

7/25/12 5:01:07 PM#137
Originally posted by Shodanas

To the people mocking the OP:

If the F2P model becomes the norm and the new standard how long do you think it's going to take before the in game cash shops become a necessity for the players who want to have serious progress in an MMO? Do you really have so much faith in the dev / publisher's good intentions? 

I have no faith in anyone's "good intentions".

 

But I do have faith in the business sense of game developers. There is so much competition in the MMO-sphere these days (and it's increasing every day), that any developer that tries too hard to "monetize" their gameplay will be shunned by players. The players will simply move to another game.

 

It may take some time for "best practices" to be established, and a few will go down for attempting excessive greed, but it will stabilise somewhere in the end. 

 

Whatever happens, the players will be paying more for their gaming eventually, which is inevitable anyway. Game production is all about labour costs, and those are always rising.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/25/12 5:05:55 PM#138
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

He didn't say release, he said experienced.  And I agree with it.

Any game that requires me to plunk down money before I even know if I like the game, IMO is encouraing a hyped game and not necessarily a fun game. 

Give me at the very least a trial.  I'll play it for awhile.  If I like it, then you get my money. 

B2P and P2P does not support this.  They encourage the hype. 

 Experienced by WHOM?

Do you know how many people were in WoW Beta and how many pre-ordered it? Most of them never experienced it so that means WoW falls into what he is talking about. More over, no F2P game costs MONEY so no F2P falls into it because you never have to give them money or buy the game. Now lets go back in time, say to...Asherons Call and EverQuest...both had pre-orders and both had low population Beta testing.

So...where is the line drawn? Pre-ordering places money into the hands of the company before release, it can be done by people who never experienced the game, and in most cases is JUST THAT...so does this mean ALL MMORPGs falls into what he said? I dont know...one person says one thing, then when backed into the corner with counter points someone comes along and tries to change the meaning.

Either way, the MMO world does not fit into a nice neat little box created by someones head.

Obviously by the people that tried it. 

Thats right.  No F2P costs money, however you still have the choice to pay for things. 

Yes, AC and EQ both had pre-orders.  However unless you were in the beta.  If you wanted to play the game you had to pay something before you knew if you liked it or not.  I choose not to do that anymore.  I will only pay for things that I feel are worth it. 

The line is drawn at the point where you are required to pay before you know if you like it.  Thats it.  Let us try it before we buy it.  They do it for many other services and products. 

Yes ALL mmos fall into what he said.  Paying money for anything before you actually know ifyou like it is paying for the hype.  Paying money when you have decided you do like it, is paying for the fun. 

Most of what you stated was just red herring rant that really had nothing to do with what I said. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

7/25/12 5:07:17 PM#139
Originally posted by laserit
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by rdrakken
Originally posted by Axehilt

Again:

  • If money trades hands before the product is experienced, that encourages advertising.
  • If money trades hand after the product is experienced, that encourages fun.
Remember the part where TOR, TSW, and TERA all charged money before you could play the game?  I do.  And so: advertising.

 Again:

  • It doesnt mean a thing.
  • There is no proof one leads to another
  • P2P, B2P and F2P games have advertised without recieving money before release before
The very idea that somehow advertising magically takes on a nefarious meaning if a company recieves a single penny before release is...laughable at the least. and better yet, that if a company does NOT receive money before release that magically the game encourages fun is...an infraction if I say it.

He didn't say release, he said experienced.  And I agree with it.

Any game that requires me to plunk down money before I even know if I like the game, IMO is encouraing a hyped game and not necessarily a fun game. 

Give me at the very least a trial.  I'll play it for awhile.  If I like it, then you get my money. 

B2P and P2P does not support this.  They encourage the hype. 

 I remember back in the eighties, I would drive 40min to a store called "Software City" where I could sit down and play any game that I was interested in purchasing. It's amazing how good some of those games were, while fitting on a single 3.5" floppy.

 Ah... the good ole days

Sounds good to me.  Except maybe the drive part.  You got to experience the game before you bought it.  So when you did buy it, you knew exactly what you were getting.  Thats a good system. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Caldicot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 394

Hobbes was right, Rousseau was wrong.

7/25/12 5:07:36 PM#140
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Caldicot

Hey OP, spot on.

But I guess it will take a couple of years before this new generation of players and publishers realize that sub is the only way to go.

And you heard it here first!

LOL .. you think the clock will turn back?

Probably you will also think that we will all go back to slide rules, and give up computers, or go back to horse riding instead of using cars.

@Caldicot.  Probably not.  I would venture to bet that a great many of the ones pushing the f2p and b2p are people like myself and narisseldon.  People that played the old games and have decided that many/most p2p games just don't offer better value than many/most f2p (old or new doesn't matter).

Well, that's where we are now, and if that was the only thing of importance I would be on the same boat as you guys. Thing is, there is no such thing as charity in this business, especially not as of late. The illusion of charity is the downfall of the entire genre and thats where we are heading.

I'm glad to pay a monthly fee, I only have one criteria: Let me have fun while playing.

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

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