I really don't have time to respond to this article point by point, but the one thing i will say is that you seem to be missing the forest for the trees.

Yes, by strict definition of the term, its not a single player RPG.  The reason it gets labelled that way is because it contains too many elements of single player RPG's.  Your comment about leveling in WOW from 1-85 is invalid because WOW doesn't have a single overarching storyline for each class, it also doesn't slam you with 18 hours of pre recorded cut scenes every 5-10 minutes you play the main storyline.

So, sorry, but the argument is bunk.  For all intents and purposes SWTOR is a single player RPG.

I wonder what kind of backlash this thread would have recieved 4 mouths ago. Even with tor beta people were defending it tooth and nail.

Nothing has changed much since betas and launch but now everyone seems to agree with what was said before. That TOR felt like a single player rpg. ( Remember you called those that called it a sprpg trolls lol)

Will we be having this same conversation in 4 months about GW2? Will all those defending GW2 tooth and nail be the firsts ones in line to trash it? only time will tell.

I really haven't played since the Legacy update, so maybe it has changed, but a big gripe and reason I'll lean toward SW:TOR being a single player mmo is the lack of a mentoring system.

I played the game at preorder and had a guildy from a previous game who started playing around New Years, when I was already at least somewhere in the high 30s/40s. The only way I could group with them and not kill all their xp gain was to roll an alt and put my main which I was enjoying on the back burner.

Sure PUGs are easy to find, but unless you and your friends start playing at the same exact time, it really became a burden to grp with friends if some had more playing time than others, without some sort of mentor system.

[quote]

The fact of the matter is this: Gamers who want to play with each other will simply do so. It doesn’t matter if the game is a sandbox game or a themepark game. It doesn’t matter if you can solo to level cap or not. The beauty is that we now have options to experience these games how we want. Could MMOs use more group centric content to give those so inclined more challenges to tackle? Maybe. But complaints that an MMO that clearly has group content (whether it has enough of it is subjective) is a singleplayer game because it doesn’t explicitly force you to play with others is just ridiculous.

[/quote]

I have to respond to this statement.

It absolutely matters whether you can solo to level cap or not.  What you are missing is the fact that in order to allow for soloing, you have to design the base tenets of the game around *gasp* soloing. 

I'll use EQ as an example of a game that promoted grouping but still allowed for soloing, vs a soloing game that allows for grouping, which is what we have with every new release now.

In EQ you got XP bonuses for grouping.  Group mobs gave more overall XP per person than if you went and killed solo mobs.  Dungeons designed for groups had XP bonuses.  The better loot in the game generally came from group areas.  Could you go and kill mobs solo for xp? yes.  All the way up to end game the open world areas had plenty of places you could XP to your hearts delight as a soloer, but there was a clear, DEFINED benefit to grouping.

Now, there is only a clear defined benefit to grouping at "end game" and its only gear related.  There is almost always no point in grouping along the way in most of these games outside of the joy of seeing the group content.  Of course that means you may also miss a lot of the solo content, so its 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

SWTOR is no more a single player MMO then any of the other EZMMO's which have been launched over the last few years. Trouble is they all lean to being more for single play, so the accusation does fit.

Like others have said the more you pander to soloing to top level the less you will group. Does not matter if you like grouping or not, making a MMO more for solo gamers casts the die. It is all about balance; the first MMO's were too group orientated, the new EzMMO's are too solo.

If you do every group quest and FP in SWTOR you will hit 50 before you see the last planet easily, with a moderate amout of PvP you will be 50 before you hit the second from last planet. So is it solo, yes of cause it is. But there is good grouping to be had too, unfortunatly with the balance on the solo side you don't see much of it.

I'll just put it this way:  GW1 felt more like an MMO than Swtor ever will.

I believe that SWTOR would have much more of a group feel to it if there was a purpose and drive to open word pvp at least on the pvp servers.

Randomly buzzing around the maps hunting players serves no real purpose. There are no rewards for doing so and in many cases depending on the planets the players are just low level and fairly easy to kill.

If we could control bases and battle for resources there would be a need for pvp and grouping outside of the regular and limited content and/or war zones.

Ilum was not a success but it could have been improved. Instead it was dropped and as far as I know left to rot in a pixel grave yard. Perhaps this has changed since my cancellation, but that is something I am not certain of.

I had the most fun during some of the Ilum battles when both sides has some numbers rolling. Some of those battles went back and forth for a while unitl the players got what they needed for the dailies and then it would end abruptly. This kind of pvp style is flawed. The players should want to pvp without feeling the need to quit and move on to other things.

The brought up a fundamental flaw in the whole game in my opinion. Was a large percentage of the player base playing on the wrong servers? Why play on pvp servers if you only want to pvp in War Zones and complete daily quests before returning to fleet to pursue the next daily task?

In most good pvp games and on pvp servers there are not very many places for players to hide avoiding any and all conflict. I wish we could have invaded the enemy fleet. Imagine the chaos and grouping you would see when a hundred light saber weilding foes arrive on fleet killing people while they are standing around waiting for War Zone ques. For me that is fun and stressful. Not knowing when you log in if you are being invaded and in danger.

With an IP like Star Wars I just can't understand why a story developed entirely on conflict between two specific sides was created to avoid war and battles instead of promote them.

Several people have pointed out how the pvp conflict will not mesh with the story and timeline that is used with SWTOR. Fair enough, that is why we have pve and rp servers. Let the pvp servers actually have pvp just about anywhere they can.

I grew tired quickly of players from my own faction trash talking us during Huttball as if the conflict between us was meant to be. Tension between players of your own faction can occur naturally without the need for a mini game like Huttball to perpetuate it.

Who wants to group with the guy that trash talks to you and your team or guild? They did a great deal to wreck the group play in SWTOR on multiple levels. There is slim hope that it can ever be repaired.

Originally posted by Hrimnir

[quote]

The fact of the matter is this: Gamers who want to play with each other will simply do so. It doesn’t matter if the game is a sandbox game or a themepark game. It doesn’t matter if you can solo to level cap or not. The beauty is that we now have options to experience these games how we want. Could MMOs use more group centric content to give those so inclined more challenges to tackle? Maybe. But complaints that an MMO that clearly has group content (whether it has enough of it is subjective) is a singleplayer game because it doesn’t explicitly force you to play with others is just ridiculous.

[/quote]

I have to respond to this statement.

It absolutely matters whether you can solo to level cap or not.  What you are missing is the fact that in order to allow for soloing, you have to design the base tenets of the game around *gasp* soloing. 

I'll use EQ as an example of a game that promoted grouping but still allowed for soloing, vs a soloing game that allows for grouping, which is what we have with every new release now.

In EQ you got XP bonuses for grouping.  Group mobs gave more overall XP per person than if you went and killed solo mobs.  Dungeons designed for groups had XP bonuses.  The better loot in the game generally came from group areas.  Could you go and kill mobs solo for xp? yes.  All the way up to end game the open world areas had plenty of places you could XP to your hearts delight as a soloer, but there was a clear, DEFINED benefit to grouping.

Now, there is only a clear defined benefit to grouping at "end game" and its only gear related.  There is almost always no point in grouping along the way in most of these games outside of the joy of seeing the group content.  Of course that means you may also miss a lot of the solo content, so its 6 of one half a dozen of the other.

My feeling is that it isn't a problem at all that SWTOR was designed with soloing in mind.  The problem is that it was designed with "single player" in mind.  Now you're probably thinking...WTF are you talking about?  Those are the same things.

I would disagree.

IMO, there is a big difference between soloing in an MMORPG, and playing single player.  A great example of soloing in an MMORPG, is when you are just wandering around doing stuff in GW2.  You are ungrouped, so you are solo.  But at the same time, you are CONSTANTLY interacting with other players in the world, even if you aren't grouped with them.  You are helping them, being helped by them, and being affected by the things they do.

Contrast this with SWTOR where a large portion of the game is played in instances.  When you are soloing in an instance...you are playing single player.  And even if you're in a group instance, you're basically playing "coop RPG" because you and your group are the only people in the "world" for all intents and purposes.

So my issue with TOR was not that it was heavy on soloing, but that it was heavy on single player,

Excellent article. I agree with every point. However, I do believe that, because of the story emphasis, grouping was discouraged though not by design. My brother and I started in the Sith area and I was a sorceror and he was a warrior. It was kind of pointless to group because we were following two different story lines. Sure we grouped but it was boring for the person that was not in the story line. Maybe this is why people say that it is a single-player mmo.

I don't really care what you refer to the game as. I just find it boring. The inclusion of a 'personal story' indicates that at least a portion of the game is single player by design.

I didn't mind that actually. I don't really like playing with other people to be honest. I can level much faster and get more done in a shorter amount of time while playing on my own - generally speaking.

Granted, I only played for a month before the bordom sause got to be too much for me - so maybe things change above lvl 30. Dunno. Don't really care either.

What really killed it for me was how insulated I felt while playing. There are 2 factions? Really? REALLY? Well... I don't believe you. So there.

I mean, I never saw another faction while playing. Nope. Not once. I don't believe the other faction's planets exist either. I'm sure I would have gone there to sneak around and try not to get caught if they actually existed.

For that matter, the planets I was on didn't really exist either. I mean, not really. I kept running into invisible walls everywhere I went. That and I couldn't climb hills or jump properly to boot - that was really annoying.

It felt more like I was trapped on a holodeck somewhere ( whatever a holodeck is ;-p ) as opposed to existing on an actual planet.

I did like that I had a companion. It meant that I didn't have to group with people for harder content for the most part :D

I found the crafting to be 'just ok'. Although I did like that I could send off a companion or two to do it for me while I did an instance and put up with nubs 'needing' loot that wasn't meant for their class.

I don't really care about story and lore and all that junk. I just like pushing the button and getting a shiny. Call me base and id-centric if you must. I don't really care about your opinion anyway. To that end - the fully voiced story etc.. lost it's shine very quickly for me.

I mean, if I want immersive story - then I'll play Dragon Age. There it makes sense to go slow and enjoy the journey. There's no rush to keep up. You're not in a race with anyone.

MMOs aren't about going slow and enjoying the journey. They're about keeping up with the Jones. Everyone else is racking up X-number of maxed out characters, so you'd better grind like crazy so you can brag about your numbers as well. Everyone else is grinding out the best gear in the game, so you'd better do it too or else you'll feel like you've failed somehow.

No, MMOs were never about enjoying the ride. It's the rat race in digital form - every time you add other people into the mix, it's you vs them. Even if they're friends. Either you keep up, or they move on to find people who will.

So I say SWtOR is a 'meh' game. I put my money where my mouth is and I stopped paying / playing. I've been playing the BWE1/2/3 for GW2 - it solves some problems, but has some of it's own unique pitfalls too. We'll see how it goes.

MMO isn't a game that gives you a possibility to play with other people.  Almost every game does that. MMO is a game that is a constant interaction with other people, from the moment you log in, and it has a persistant world.

I will admit 2 things I did do alot of group quests levelling in swtor, I tried to do all of them in each zone. I would either ask for or see messages for pugs to do them.

Even the other day I missed the star wars universe as an mmo, the sad fact is there is nothing to go back for in my opinion.  Plus with all the huge amounts of lay-offs (hundreds of people over 6 months), I dont see how without those people they are going to be able to crank out top notch content to compete with the upcoming releases and expansions.

I tried my best to like and play swtor but with the lag due to the engine, the lack of cool things to do at 50 and what seems to be a severe disconnect between the players and the developers i.e "sub drops are the fault of casuals" and the mass locking of half decent threads that put simply other games allow to stay. All keeps me away.

It was going to be the game I played for years, I did my bit I purchased the game, I subbed and levelled 2 toons to 50.  MMORPGs are a business relationship between consumer and provider, as far as I am concerned they didnt keep their end of the bargain up.

The only ridiculous notion here was the one by the article writer.  If you can't figure out that SWTOR was specifically designed to be played single player, then you need to take the blinders off.

This game was hand holding taken to the extreme.   The only challenge was a brief pause while you figured out how to play your next alt.

Now the game is really single player because finding someone to group with is a task all by itself.

Attempting to stay the fanboy course with this game is truly laughable at this stage of the game.  

The big question is how long will EA continue to fund LA with it's fees.  You can bet LA upped them significantly over what SOE payed for SWG.  My guess is the servers are all off line within two years.  EA  does not fund losers long.

Originally posted by SimonVDH

MMO isn't a game that gives you a possibility to play with other people.  Almost every game does that. MMO is a game that is a constant interaction with other people, from the moment you log in, and it has a persistant world.

Then Rift isnt an MMORPG either, because its designed so you dont have to interact with other people.  Want to do an invasion?  You dont even have to ask to join the raid for it, you are automatically put in there.  Once in the raid it is just a bunch of people soloing, there is no difference between another player and an NPC.   Outside of dungeon quests, Rift has almost no group quests and FAR less incentive than SWToR to group while leveling since SWToR has more group quests than any other AAA MMORPG released since EQ2.

And Rift certainly isnt the only one.  Most MMORPGs are like this nowadays.

Originally posted by Ozmodan

 

Now the game is really single player because finding someone to group with is a task all by itself.

 

 

Well, its obvious you are blindly 'hating' and have no grip on reality.  SWtoR servers are plenty active.  Its because they effectively condensed most of them, but they are certainly active now.  Next time try being informed before typing hatred.

My issue with SWTOR as a NON-multiplayer game rises mostly from their actively discouraging group play.  (Maybe this has been fixed, maybe not)

Have a friend that also want to play a Jedi to go with your Jedi?  Either tell him to stay home, or prepare to do that class instance twice...  Come on! What other game actively punishes you for daring to double up on 1 class?

As to Flashpoints, yes they are for groups, yet nothing I have ever seen drop in one couldn't also be got solo. As well, the random nature of the 'winner' of each step of a conversations progress often results in jumbled storylines, at least use a consesus system so that if most players choose the Light ending for instance, the one off Dark player that wins a roll doesn't speak for all.

Yes, SWTOT 'allows' multi-player, but really doesn't favor it, require it, or even encourage it.

I feel bad for you, MikeB.

You wanted SW:TOR to be great more than anyone else on this website.

But you got 'this' game.  Thats a real shame.

Originally posted by Vorthanion

Originally posted by Weretigar

I only joined groups for flashpoints. if i came up to a 2+ 3+ or 5player or flashpoint i could just stand thier for like 5 min at launch and some random would invite me and we would beat it. I had no reason to lvl with somone else, it was actually less experience for me to go trew the questing areas as a team. At the end of reaching lvl 50 it was just about grinding gear. I gave up after i got my champion set. I had no intrest to grin fleet gear, since there was no real good explination of which I started at first or how to get good enough gear by grinding daileys solo to get the world medals to get the gear. Sorry but untill you can fleet or when if at all you want a flashpoint which is not necessary it is a single player mmo with multiplayer optional.

No, it is not single player at all.  You are just unhappy that it isn't a forced grouping game.  You're either too lazy to do it on your own or you're just a control freak who can't get his group on without others being forced to join you.

I don't care if thier is forced grouping or not I personally don't see the point of grouping at lower lvls because it acomplishes nothing. Before the legacy update where they made it so you could ungem purples/un mod. There was 0 reason to run flashpoints except for fun because non of the stuff was woth anything if you just kept going solo which gave you more exp. It didn't have any kind of flyff system where you gained more in a party you were penalized for playing with others. half exp is a good motiv to play alone tell endgame. Then at endgame same ol grind. Now you can't skip th3e convos if you want companion rep farm so you have to wait trew all the cg's. I'm not lazy there just isn't a point to do it. How is somone who never made a guild and always joins other peoples groups a control freak?

The thing about Star Wars is so many people LOVE it and if you screw around and start mixing up the elements people are going to freak out. Look at the rage aimed at George Lucas for the rereleases of the original movies changes/additions and then the new movies too. Some things just shouldnt tampered with and if you dont know and love Star Wars, you probably shouldnt be working on a Star Wars project.

Originally posted by razorneck

I don't really care what you refer to the game as. I just find it boring. The inclusion of a 'personal story' indicates that at least a portion of the game is single player by design.

Wow.  You created your account in 2006 and waited six years to make your first post?  You must really hate this game to come out of lurking for this.