Originally posted by ste2000
What a useless article.
We all know that SWTOR technically is a MMORPG, the point is that it is bad designed and people play instinctively the game as Single Player, because the MMO part is not interesting enough, in fact it is pretty boring.
So people play the Storylines and once they finish the exciting bit, they are left with the MMO part which people find too boring to play.
Don't compare WOW with SWTOR, the first is still a MMO (not the best I admit), the second is a MMO by name but a Single Player game by fact.
No amount of wall of text can deny that, since the drop in subscription is a better judging measure than any word.

 

QFT !!!! Couldnt say better myself.  

Originally posted by gasperk

Originally posted by ste2000
What a useless article.
We all know that SWTOR technically is a MMORPG, the point is that it is bad designed and people play instinctively the game as Single Player, because the MMO part is not interesting enough, in fact it is pretty boring.
So people play the Storylines and once they finish the exciting bit, they are left with the MMO part which people find too boring to play.
Don't compare WOW with SWTOR, the first is still a MMO (not the best I admit), the second is a MMO by name but a Single Player game by fact.
No amount of wall of text can deny that, since the drop in subscription is a better judging measure than any word.

 

 

QFT !!!! Couldnt say better myself.  

QFE, I also don't believe I could have said it better myself. A wall of text with an opinion is one thing, but to post it as an article as "fact" is another.

Originally posted by Kyleran

edit (besides, I know you favor playing tanks in MMO's, skews your perpective)

believe it or not, I usually play tanks so I can solo ; )

It's survivability!

And then I get into a group and have to tank and think "uh oh, this can only end in tears".

However, as far as the rest of your other post, that comes back to the "players don't do anything if there aren't any rewards" argument.

And if that's the case, then we have a schism right there. Players who take part in the content because it interests them and players who only take part in content if it will advance them quickly and if they are rewarded properly.

In which case that then speaks to what some might construe as the larger issue in mmo's.

Does this mean that going forward, the only content worth donig is content that will reward players?

I just started playing about 2 weeks ago and am only a little bored (which is good for me since I was playing it too much).  I have had a lot of fun grouping with people for Heroic quests and flashpoints.  I think that is fine.

Seriously who runs around WoW in a group for anything but dungeons etc.  Any game that has levels makes it hard to group with friends and why would you group with absolute strangers all of the time unless you had to. . so they make it that you have to and you make new friends.

Part of the problem is quests. . they make people have different objectives while together vs. a sandbox.  For example. . you are (were) out in UO and you ran across someone. . you don't know if they are going to attack you or not. . . . you chat and watch each other and hang together because there was safety in numbers.  You also didn't have a quests that required certain elements to complete that could contradict with each other.  I have to go this way. . I have to go that way. . how inefficient. . lets go our own way.

Also games are easy  and there is little penalty for death.  I will say that I have solo'd some heroics already while leveling because it was just more convenient (no one was around) but generally I look for a group or grab someone in the area. . we do it and things are good.

 It is as multiplayer as you want it to be.

All I want is MMO with large world with no constraints (invisible walls, loading screens, instances...) 

Shouldn't be too much to ask!

I enjoyed the game while going through the story the 1st two times. After that, it just felt repetative.  There are several things that made it "feel" more like a single player game with mmo aspects.  One of the most glaring single player things to me was the space missions.  They are just a rollercoaster ride with guns.  I actually expected a open space area players could fly around in and work together.  But between the solo instanced areas and the single player space battles, it just didnt feel very much like an mmo even though it is.

That being said, good article and very good points.

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Kyleran

Mike is just a bit upset because he's a SWTOR fan and hates to see his game slammed so much even when people are leaving the title in droves for not only this complaint, but many others as well.

TLDR:  MMORPG's are about the stories player make interacting between each other (even in a good theme park, see DAOC, circa 2003)  and not about the stories the Developers set before them.  Those clearly belong in the single player game space.

Don't have time to respond to all your points here at the moment (maybe later), but please don't put words in my mouth here. I'm not upset because people are "slamming my game". Please. I couldn't care less what other people think of something I enjoy, whether it's music, a film, or a videogame.

I simply wanted to use this article to blow up a hyperbolic and ridiculous label that I've seen flying around for some time now and use it as a jump off point to discuss the larger issue here: people are really upset that MMOs like SWTOR don't foster the same social interaction found in MMOs of the past, which is what in large part made this genre great at all. Despite the vast differences in theme, gameplay, mechanics, or even subgenres, it's the potential for social interaction and community that makes MMOs what they are. The problem is we can't ever discuss this in a meaningful way if we're tossing around stupid labels and other hyperbole.

I get where it comes from. I'd just love to see the hyperbole fall out of style so we can discuss the real issue in a constructive and intelligent manner.

 I actually think your second paragraph is spot on, I mean you definitely understand what the complaints are, and I agree that we tend to spend more time bickering with one another than having intelligent conversation.  But really, I don't know if the hyperbole is at fault for this.

The fact of the matter is that all the points in your second paragraph against SWTOR have been brought up ad infinitum.  But what it boils down to, is some people agree with them, others disagree, and they aren't going to change their minds.  So in the end, the whole thing devolves into "I'm right, and you're wrong."

So after a while, there's really no reason to discuss things intelligently anymore...I guess all diplomatic options have been exhausted and it comes the time for flame war lol :).

Originally posted by toddze

No MikeB, its not just a singleplayer rpg, Its a Singleplayer RPG with multiplayer options. This game is in mo way shape or form an MMORPG. It goes against everything that the mmo genre started with. The game is just as linear as any single player rpg. There is no world, not any resemblance of a world, you play zones to make it even worse you play multiple instances of those same zones(atleast you use to when the game had a population). A real MMO will keep the player base spread out over a WORLD, multiple starter cities, plethera of content to keep players spread out. A single player RPG starts everybody in one or 2 zones, merges everyone into one line shortly, and runs multiple instances of those same zones. Its nothing but one big bottle neck, you have to instance it when the devs are to lazy to make content, and actually try to keep players spread out. It is pathetic and sad. Even worse these people are willing to pay 15$ a month to play that garbage.

 

Do we really need to keep beating this dead horse? Let this cash in on the Star Wars name dissapear. Its not an MMORPG. Its just an Online RPG. White knight chronicals for ps3 is more of an MMO than this game.  

Its like you were reading my mind. Well said and wholeheartedly agree. I knew what I was getting before purchasing a couple copies, but I thought I would look past some of the negativity I had read here and hopefully find something me and the wife can enjoy together. After 2 weeks I was already thinking is this worth $30 a month for something that does not deserve a sub fee because there were no aspects I could find that promoted community and memories to make. I am not upset with bioware because I chose to purchase the game, but if I am already debating if the monthly cost was worth it after only 2 weeks then it was time to hang it up. And no, I am not a F2P type of person because I have never had a problem with paying a sub if it was necessary and I was getting mo monies worth. Game is KOTOR with multiplayer options..... that's all I got out of it.

It was designed as mainly a single player solo experience, I felt it and so did thousands of others. We are just calling it how we see it. Just because a game has multiplayer content (as awful as theirs is) doesn't mean they didn't go out of their way to make it a single player experience (which they did)

Originally posted by MikeB

I'm not upset because people are "slamming my game". Please. I couldn't care less what other people think of something I enjoy, whether it's music, a film, or a videogame.

I simply wanted to use this article to blow up a hyperbolic and ridiculous label that I've seen flying around for some time now and use it as a jump off point to discuss the larger issue here: people are really upset that MMOs like SWTOR don't foster the same social interaction found in MMOs of the past.

 Contradicting much?

You dont care, but you want to write an article to blow up a topic people are using against the game...

Face it, you like the game, you dont like that people dont like the game for the reasons you do.

Bioware attempted to change the genre by creating a hybrid, most people dont like it...time to DEAL WITH REALITY because blind fanboism is killing the game. Allow Bioware to see the concerns of the MAJORITY so they can save the game.

Originally posted by MikeB

Originally posted by Kyleran

Mike is just a bit upset because he's a SWTOR fan and hates to see his game slammed so much even when people are leaving the title in droves for not only this complaint, but many others as well.

TLDR:  MMORPG's are about the stories player make interacting between each other (even in a good theme park, see DAOC, circa 2003)  and not about the stories the Developers set before them.  Those clearly belong in the single player game space.

Don't have time to respond to all your points here at the moment (maybe later), but please don't put words in my mouth here. I'm not upset because people are "slamming my game". Please. I couldn't care less what other people think of something I enjoy, whether it's music, a film, or a videogame.

I simply wanted to use this article to blow up a hyperbolic and ridiculous label that I've seen flying around for some time now and use it as a jump off point to discuss the larger issue here: people are really upset that MMOs like SWTOR don't foster the same social interaction found in MMOs of the past, which is what in large part made this genre great at all. Despite the vast differences in theme, gameplay, mechanics, or even subgenres, it's the potential for social interaction and community that makes MMOs what they are. The problem is we can't ever discuss this in a meaningful way if we're tossing around stupid labels and other hyperbole.

I get where it comes from. I'd just love to see the hyperbole fall out of style so we can discuss the real issue in a constructive and intelligent manner.

 

I can respect that. I can agree that the real issue is that the game promotes almost zero social aspects that were a large part of what helped retention in previouse MMO's. Hell the only reason I stayed in WoW as long as I did was friends made. But I also understand what people mean when describing SWTOR as a SRPG. Semantics aside, most people know what was meant and I find it funny that I have only really saw an MMO called this when regarding SWTOR. Maybe it will now become a criticism of future titles I dont know, but it is spot on how I felt when playing SWTOR and I have never felt that In any MMORP I have been a part of. 

It's not a single player RPG. But it's no MMORPG either. It's a single player experience for most of the game and has lobby-based small group co-op content sprinkled in. There is nothing persistent in this game that can be influenced by players. The one thing that was massive is no longer in use (Ilum).

I wouldn't call it a bad game, but I would call it a bad MMORPG.

So what i'm seeing here is this. The writer doesn't quite understand the reasons why people are criticizing the game. They are criticizing the game because the developers directly hyped their game as the best ever of any mmo title before the game came out. And i don't like using the H word however in this case it applies. The lead dev himself got up there and told everyone that right off the bat when someone logsin from the character creation screen they would be doing things in the world they couldn't do anywhere else. Then on top of that they stated in another interview that it would be the best mmo experience. Both of them turned out wrong, instead we got a single player mmo (much like wow) with multiplayer options (things didn't happen fluidly at all everything about a group is a fight to get to go) and at the end there's a lobby. Combine this with the trust destroying articles that were obviously paid for by the company pre and post release giving them huge scores like 9/10 for quality (when back then there was a disturbing series of serious game breaking issues on release that was obvious to anyone including the code NOT being what the final beta code was in features and behavior) and you see why people are claiming this and why now we don't believe your articles about games we go and decide for ourselves and discover what's really happening.  The group system is hard work and doesn't offer any rewards accept for the ability to go through different hughed walls that would normally keep your character class from attending while cinematics carry on during the leveling process.

The problem is the writer, and even Bioware is fighting ágainst´ the labelling of swtor as a SP experience.  It really is like games that tack pvp on just so they can say they have pvp.

What most players consider MMO is missing from SWTOR, the devs should have embraced the SP aspect and played it up.  Instead, they are trying to tack on grouping aspects and sell the game as something it is not.

Perception is reality, and you guys constantly saying ´but this is a MMO because see.... we have group quests´... is not going to change the perception of the majority of players.   Instead of defending the game by saying it is ´similar to wow, rift, lotro.. etc´...  Bioware should be embracing and developing the game further based on the ´single player game that never ends´ model.

Otherwise, what they are creating, and what they have, is just another version of wow that isn´t as fun.  Go ahead, add more dungeons and raids... you think it will help subs?

Well said.

Nice effort, OP, if, I'm afraid, wasted. At this point anything and everything about ToR has become a matter of herd mentality, with very little individual thought or consideration involved. I have no doubt most of the people posting could simultaneously complain about ToR being a raid-based gear grind -- which, for better or ill, it is -- and whine about it being a single-player RPG... Without ever seeing the inherent contradiction.

When I called SWTOR a "Massively Singleplayer game" I typically meant that it wouldve been a much better game if they just made it singleplayer. There was so much instancing (and at the time so little players) it felt as if I was always alone... aka singleplayer. Even though I encountered quests that required groups, there were no groups to play with. So I called it singleplayer.

The class quests made it unlikely that you would group with people for very long.  Add in the fact that you couldn't queue up for an instance while leveling on another planet just made things 100x worse.

I liked leveling and would group if invited, at least until I wanted to return to my class quests, but SWTOR is far more solo focused than WOW.  Today in WOW you can level very easily just through instances.

The honest truth about the game, from my opinion: It could have been a huge hit if it went the free-to-play route. The game just doesn't have the mutiplayer MMO feel or the content for sustaining a monthly fee.

The fact is, any game can seem totally enjoyable and thoroughly multiplayer focused when you go into it playing with someone you know -- I played SWTOR with my spouse and never grouped outside of our duo a single time. Heck, you can even say that Diablo 3 is a thriving and enriching multiplayer experience if all you do is play with your friend all-the-time.

Have you seen the worlds lately or even the fleets? If you weren't lucky enough to get into the transfer queue you are stuck on a ghost server. The last time I logged into SWTOR, before my subscription expired and I did not renew, was about 45-60 days ago when my spouse and I played through two entire planets in a weekend. We did not encounter a single living soul other than ourselves during the entire weekend of playing.

And let's talk about maturity of the gaming company for a second while I am speaking about server transfers. You DON'T initiate optional server transfers for dwindling server populations; you initiate mandatory server mergers. Server transfers are for over-population problems where players have the option of transferring to a fresh new server. Bioware totally screwed this entire population problem and blew it even further out-of-proportion by their own handling of the problem.

And let's not even begin to talk about "exploration" of the planets, when only a tiny fraction of a whole planet is even open to the player to interact with -- making the game feel artificially small. Sure there are vast vistas on the horizons that are well-painted and beautiful, but you cannot get there. Maybe if the game actually allowed players to fly their ships around the galaxy a'la EVE, it may have felt larger. But the truth is the planets feel like you are only allowed to play in 10%-15% of their overall size; if you're lucky.

The bottom line is that the game's largest draw is its largest failure as a massive multiplayer game: the single player story. While it is great to be the center of attention, being in every cut-scene, and seeing the well-designed personal story unfold, the fact-of-the-matter is that it is exactly that: a single player personal story. Sure you can group. Sure you can run instances with other people. Sure you can find a bunch of other players to raid. But grouping was an after-thought for Bioware -- months after release -- when the group finder tool finally was introduced (too little, too late).

The game is truly nothing more than Diablo 3: A great single player experience that has optional multiplayer capability, a chat box, and an auction house.

 gamers dissmiss content they don't value, so counting all of the group content and saying see your wrong there is all this group content, is gonna fall on deaf ears much like it has for me.

   1-49 and your endgame experience in swtor have a total divorce more so than any other MMO i have played.

   Sorry but giving Swtor credit for all their bland repatitive tired wow style raiding is like handing out a trophy to a kid that came in last. Clearly people are sick of what swtor has to offer in terms of endgame ......that's why we left