Originally posted by seridan

Having lots of gold will be useless because of supply. Supply is the mechanic that will make excess gold useless.

Yes, and this point has already been made moot in another topic.  Everyone just carries supplies with them.

Time saving items are put into the cash shop allowing people that have more money than time to play at a comparitive level to people that have more time than money.

This is a good thing.

There are alot of "socially disadvantaged peoples" that have no initiative to be a productive member of society, and instead divulge their entire life into playing video games. Why should a developer cater to this group? Sure they are a portion of the playerbase, but it's not the majority.  If they cater to this group, it actually condones this sort of behavior.

There are alot of "professional gamers" that focus their life on trying to earn money through the game. Gold farmers, account sellers, etc. These people ruin the game experience for the majority of players. Why would a developer cater to this minority?

The majority of the playerbase is casuals. This is an obvious fact from the knowledge that the majority of people have jobs, and therefore are unable to play video games 24/7. Sure makes alot of sense to cater to this crowd.

The question I have is, what sort of person complains about an opportunity for the game to balance out for casuals?

Still not pay 2 win...

The first thing I did this BWE was checked the Gem trading post to see if items changed.... Everything that was in the shop was kinda stupid and not worth the money except some really cool glasses which I see fit for my asura and a few character slots...

Everything else in the shop isn't just something I'd buy. Sure there's time convinience items in the shop and time saving items, but I just don't see how that gives me an advantage over someone since I don't care when will I get a certain item which I'm collecting karma / pvp points for. I was getting those points pretty darn fast anyways without any other time convinient buffs.

One thing I noticed as well, I also got a random "unindentified dye pack" and "mystic chest" as a world drop, but still haven't recieved the "mystic key" as a drop, but I kinda have a feeling those won't be really rare drops and have no idea what kind of items could it get us.

Real Money = Gems = Ingame Money = Stuff that gives advantage.

Graphical version for those who were blind.

The cash shop really putting me off gw2. Been saying it since the day they announce those "time saving" cs item. It's pay to win 

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Originally posted by Interesting

Real Money = Gems = Ingame Money = Stuff that gives advantage.

People aren't arguing that the relationship that you lay out here doesn't exist. They are arguing that the advantages given are negligible based on the design direction of GW2.

I wish I had a big graph for you, but basically, all you have to do is imagine a world where a person can see another person get to level 80 a day faster than themselves and be ok with it.

On a side note, the XP buff is particularly weak since it only counts for creatures killed and not total xp you get.

Originally posted by nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Seriously? you have been in this community for a while, you know this forum is where every mmorpg vet is and you should also know that the average gamer age is over 30 years old. Just because people dont agree with you or dont really bother reading walls of text(not everyone likes to read), doesnt mean they are high school kids.

In fact most of the posters on the forum are far older than you

Are you serious? if you want to level faster, there is no problem with that. You won't get more gold or more loot, so what's the problem? if players want to level up faster they should be able to do so. I feel like GW2 leveling is much slower than in other games, but you know what? i don't care, because the game is so fun i don't even realise when i level up. If you really want to play all of the game, there is 5 starter zones for each race and by the time you have done them all you will be lvl 30+

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Seriously? you have been in this community for a while, you know this forum is where every mmorpg vet is and you should also know that the average gamer age is over 30 years old. Just because people dont agree with you or dont really bother reading walls of text(not everyone likes to read), doesnt mean they are high school kids.

In fact most of the posters on the forum are far older than you

but it's easier to try and prove a point when you demean others in the process... i been around games a long time too, point is change isnt always a big scary monster and getting to 80 faster then the next guy isnt going to give you a big advantage anywhere in the game as someone said before based off the design direction. the game isnt a rush to max level, grind dungeons and start raiding so there is no real major advantage in getting to level 80 faster. Also i do have a problem with cash shops where i can buy my max level and gear and pwn all the noobs without any skill, but you actual require a certain degree of skill / profession knowledge to be competetive in any level in GW2 the game's meta will be constantly evolving and the way it's setup is so that each week, month whatever new builds will be made to counter old builds if not on a daily basis and on a minimum you will see FOTM builds that will be quickly countered and new builds released.. the game is about skill and strategy at it's core so no amount of cosmetic items, xp boosts, karma boosts etc... is going to give you some massive edge to be the bestest ever... knowing classes inside and out and working out good synergies is the way to win. on a side note.. i totally think my norn will look badass rockin out some aviators

Has any other theme besides this one been so beaten up to a pulp in MMO history?

This is right up there with "NGE killed SWG" and "WoW sucks".

Gold has VERY little weight in this game. You can carry a VERY limited amount of Supply at once. Having the option of selling Gems for Gold provides a NEGLIGIBLE advantage, which will only grow thinner as time goes by and people accrue more Gold.

Comparing this game's Shop to a Chinese P2W grinder's is dishonest, misleading and downright stupid.

Originally posted by Interesting

Graphical version for those who were blind.

 

You're missing the half that explains accruing the cash. Strangely enough, it doesn't actually grow on trees. 

Originally posted by sapheroith

Before, pay to win = gear.

Now, pay to win = time saving item?

I am sure if any other mmo have the same CS, no one would care about it, but it is GW2, people wants attention.

Just out of curiosity, OP, what you think of the scroll of res in wow?

It can be argued, I think, that in a PvE game (or the PvE section of a game, as in the case of GW2) that developing your character is 'winning'.

So yes, while in a PvP focused game buying power is P2W, in a PvE environment buying your character development is P2W.

This includes paying to make it easier to do just that, and it includes buying your rewards straight from a shop rather then playing to earn them.

The OP is correct when he says the chosen revenue model effects core design of a game profoundly (speaking about games designed with that model in mind from the start here, not the retrofitted sub based games) and the F2P model brings in with it some pretty bad elements.

Now, I am a staunch fan of Play to Achieve, rather then Pay to Achieve, but I have chosen to tolerate the GW2 shop? Why? Well... mainly because the game is really good, and secondly as a Play to Achiever I can play and access everything in that shop. It gives me the choice, nothing is blocked off from my style of play.

ANet are showing some suspicious signs with their shop at this point (the changing of the FAQ wording regarding it, the hiring of ex Perfect World people to head it up, the change in dyes, the random pet bags, taking real money off people in beta etc) but at this point it is ok. Nothing much to worry about right now, but we should't ignore trends and indicators for a possible future either.

But we should watch them closely from this point on. We need to tell them that this is our 'sweet point' and nothing heavier will be tolerated.

Agree 100% with everything. Would rather pay a sub then have the cash shop. What will I do? Nothing because it won't make the slightest bit of difference what I do. Maybe curl up in a ball over in that corner...

Let me spell this out for you, real easy, so you can understand.

Having extra gold (or anything from the cash shop) does not make you 'win' in GW2. It does not make you more powerfull and it does not give you any advantage over anyone else

[EDIT]

Did you know that EVE is more P2W than GW2? Why don't you go troll their forums and see how that goes for you.

I could care less. What other people do in a video game doesn't affect my enjoyment in the slightest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

Originally posted by DJJazzy

I could care less. What other people do in a video game doesn't affect my enjoyment in the slightest.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

You do know that Peter Griffin is probably not a character to aspire to, right?

And the revenue model DOES affect YOUR enjoyment of any given game, because it has a profound effect on the core design of that game.

[mod edit]

haters gonna hate

GW2 is the best mmorpg out there playing bwe3 and it worth all the money it deserve

Sylvari best race-world hands down

Originally posted by austriacus

Originally posted by nate1980

Well, I'm an older gamer (31yrs old), so I've seen what games used to be and was able to understand what I had back then and the difference between what we have now. First off, I think the OP is correct, albeit, I think the college level essay you just wrote will be lost on the majority of posters here, since I believe most to be of high school age.

Anyways, back to what I was saying. I remember games, both SPG and MMORPG's when they were games. Meaning, they were challenging problems meant to be solved. Games where player competition were allowed set everyone on equal footing and the only way to gain an edge over other players were through time, effort, and practice. Practice turned you into a skilled player eventually.

So, if time invested = an advantage over other players, then any sort of experience boost or buffs that allow you to bypass the "grind" that non-paying members have to do grants you an advantage, since time spent in game = progression, and progression = power. In other words, early and mid game becomes unfair towards those who don't spend where competition comes into play. If there isn't any competition, then it doesn't matter.

I've said all the same things since we've learned GW2 will sell time-saving items, but I was ignored.

With all of that said, aside from boycotting games, which if we're honest won't happen, what can we really do? Nothing. So we either boycott these games alone and mis out on an otherwise good game, or we accept what the times have brought us and play the game anyways. I'm resigned to our fate, because I love to play games more than I love to take political stances on things I know will not change.

I haven't bought so many SPG's because they started doing the downloadable content thing where you have to pay for it, such as ME3, any future Dragon Ages, and Arkam City. I remember when you used to get a single player RPG and it'd not only be challenging, but last you for a great while, not to mention it'd be feature complete and a full game. Nowadays, they're extremely short, cookie cutter games, that offer a handful of hours of downloadable content if you're willing to fork out the cash.

Seriously? you have been in this community for a while, you know this forum is where every mmorpg vet is and you should also know that the average gamer age is over 30 years old. Just because people dont agree with you or dont really bother reading walls of text(not everyone likes to read), doesnt mean they are high school kids.

In fact most of the posters on the forum are far older than you

I don't believe that for a minute. I've been a part of this forum since 2003 when first discovering that DAoC wasn't the only game of it's kind after playing it for 2 years already. Didn't even know there was a genre called MMORPG's. Anyways, back then I'd of agreed with you now, but I call it as I see it. The general trolling, hating, flaming, and lack of patience to read are all traits more commonly found in kids, not adults, especially not older adults. I'm not saying there aren't good or bad in both age groups, just a general rull of thumb.