Trending Games | ArcheAge | Firefall | Guild Wars 2 | WildStar

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,851,941 Users Online:0
Games:733  Posts:6,226,300
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » "Time-Saving Convenience Items" and "Time Skippers". The New Pay to Win in Guild Wars 2, What will you do?

5 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 » Search
96 posts found
  Interesting

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/08
Posts: 959

 
OP  7/22/12 1:48:49 AM#1

Too Long Didnt Read Version:

Whole point is to send the message that its not OK to monetize time and effort, as there is no cap for it (how much time and effort one can potentially invest) and it affects balance within specific time frames. I.e. you dont judge balance of a game based on the false premise that everyone has (the potential to invest thousands of hours to get "everything), neither  thousands of hours invested since the beggining and at any point before everyone has thousands of hours invested in the game, any time and effort "economized" by spending on the cash shop does translate to factual advantages. Pay to Win. Fact that there is an illegal blackmarket is a fallacy argument that does not allow the game company to design a game to exploit human nature desire for power and progression with cash shops. It is not moral and ethical to do so as it dilutes the whole point of competition and playing a game in the first place. Its not about not being able to acquire some items in-game, so much as allowing people to acquire them through real money, faster, easier and/or in more amounts. Therefore just saying that one can get anything by "playing" and "through enough* time and effort" does not removes the negative effect of REAL MONEY CAUSING AN IMBALANCE AND DISRUPTANCE OF THE EXPERIENCE through direct or indirect effects on competition.

 

Throughly explained version:

You spend money to acquire something that ultimatelly allow you to bypass time and effort.

You spend money to acquire something that has value, thus generating value for you out of thin air.

The value you acquire translate into power. The time you skipped, translate into progression. Progression is power.

In the end, anything that is sold on CASH SHOPS that POTENTIALLY allows players to SKIP a portion of TIME AND EFFORT in the game to PROGRESS, ends up giving them a chronologically power advantage over others.

MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player.  By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.

In that sense there is always a chronologic race for progression and acquisition of resources, equipment, valuables or whatever that can be acquired through time and effort.

Under these designs, selling TIME SKIPPERS or TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS are an indirect way of selling power, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, benefitting from the power bait on the cash shops and evading the criticism that our mmorpg community has grown to evolve and label by "Pay To Win".

Time savers affect the chronologic progression and position of power one holds at any determined point in time.

The main problem is that TIME SKIPPERS, CONTENT SKIPPERS, TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS, whatever the developers name it in their interviews END UP AFFECTING THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.

This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way. While for the payers who are envisioned to benefit from the so called "time-savers" end up having a completely diference experience, one whose progression feels more acceptable and natural (as opposed to the artificially "tweaked" one).

This is clearly observed when games started to go from P2P to F2P. 

When the factors of power are not subjective (relative to the character: such as levels, classes, skills, unlocks), but material (derived from equipment, upgrades, enchants, resources, whatever currency can translate into direct power), players are misguided into believing that the "progression is fast" or that "the level cap is easily reachable within a short time frame anyway", when in reality in these games the FACTORS OF POWER derive from the material branch. In other words, what commonly we call as "gear grind".

So today I saw the announcement about GUILD WARS 2 RMT and I died a bit inside when I saw the same rethoric speech by ArenaNets' O'Brien about offering "Time-saving convenience items". As if adding the word convenience to it would somehow disguise the pay to win nature of time-saving. And all that disregard the fact that real money will be directly translated into virtual value.

Each day the ethic principles that I grew up as a gamer is shifted into a new ethical paradigm.  To me, adding money into the factor of gaming is unethical. Its not ilegal because we the consumers are unorganized and the moving force behind legislation lobbies wants more consumers spending their money and it will take a few years untill the society embraces this virtual social consumerist phenomn and start to treat us like "real life" consumers are.

I believe that what we can do, as I have written before years ago, is that creating a PREJUDICE, by LABELING NEGATIVELLY SOMETHING WE FEEL STRONGLY AGAINST, such as "PAY TO WIN" (as in "this game is pay to win, wich is bad, therefore it sucks" that became automatized in our mass conscience as modern gamers) is a way to VOTE. Is a way to CRIPPLE, is a way to CHANGE and CAUSE EFFECT.  We have seen that smart developers ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO STEEM AWAY FROM THE "OUR GAME IS PAY TO WIN" LABELING.

Now what I believe we must do, is start to impregnate the "TIME-SAVING", "TIME SKIPPERS" IS BAD! In the same way we managed to do together against Pay to Win. We must reject RMT MODELS THAT AFFECT THE INTEGRITY of our games.

That is the best we can do and we can easily spread this idea by just repeatedly applying the negative label filled with prejudice against the "time saving convenience items". In the end, they are as prejudicial to the games as the original pay to win, but this time, they are being camouflaged, masqueraded to bypass our perceptive filters.

You can pm me to discuss more if you want, or you can keep this one bumped for great justice somore people read. I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you.

 

Older version created to discuss the issue at the time the first hints of this would be introduced in Guild Wars 2. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/345045 . Since that topic is beyond revival time frame for bringing it back to the top, and since this one is directly related to Guild Wars 2 on the lights of the new in game experiences thousands of us are having, this one justifies its existance once again.

 

 

  Vaultar

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/08
Posts: 342

7/22/12 1:59:43 AM#2
Originally posted by Interesting

Too Long Didnt Read Version:

Whole point is to send the message that its not OK to monetize time and effort, as there is no cap for it (how much time and effort one can potentially invest) and it affects balance within specific time frames. I.e. you dont judge balance of a game based on the false premise that everyone has (the potential to invest thousands of hours to get "everything), neither  thousands of hours invested since the beggining and at any point before everyone has thousands of hours invested in the game, any time and effort "economized" by spending on the cash shop does translate to factual advantages. Pay to Win. Fact that there is an illegal blackmarket is a fallacy argument that does not allow the game company to design a game to exploit human nature desire for power and progression with cash shops. It is not moral and ethical to do so as it dilutes the whole point of competition and playing a game in the first place. Its not about not being able to acquire some items in-game, so much as allowing people to acquire them through real money, faster, easier and/or in more amounts. Therefore just saying that one can get anything by "playing" and "through enough* time and effort" does not removes the negative effect of REAL MONEY CAUSING AN IMBALANCE AND DISRUPTANCE OF THE EXPERIENCE through direct or indirect effects on competition.

 

Throughly explained version:

You spend money to acquire something that ultimatelly allow you to bypass time and effort.

You spend money to acquire something that has value, thus generating value for you out of thin air.

The value you acquire translate into power. The time you skipped, translate into progression. Progression is power.

In the end, anything that is sold on CASH SHOPS that POTENTIALLY allows players to SKIP a portion of TIME AND EFFORT in the game to PROGRESS, ends up giving them a chronologically power advantage over others.

MMORPGs are designed so time is never enough. By design, there isnt a CAP at wich point spending more time does not provide any more material or subjective advantage to a player.  By design players can always get more and better resources, gear, valuables.

In that sense there is always a chronologic race for progression and acquisition of resources, equipment, valuables or whatever that can be acquired through time and effort.

Under these designs, selling TIME SKIPPERS or TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS are an indirect way of selling power, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, benefitting from the power bait on the cash shops and evading the criticism that our mmorpg community has grown to evolve and label by "Pay To Win".

Time savers affect the chronologic progression and position of power one holds at any determined point in time.

The main problem is that TIME SKIPPERS, CONTENT SKIPPERS, TIME-SAVING CONVENIENCE ITEMS, whatever the developers name it in their interviews END UP AFFECTING THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME.

This causes a chain effect that start from the core design of the game, when rates of progression, amount of time and effort required to accomplish certain activiities is decided. Games end up being designed so that the default rate of progression or amount of repetition or attempts, or number of enemies killed, whatever activiity it has, ends up being artificially increased/slowed down in a detrimental way. While for the payers who are envisioned to benefit from the so called "time-savers" end up having a completely diference experience, one whose progression feels more acceptable and natural (as opposed to the artificially "tweaked" one).

This is clearly observed when games started to go from P2P to F2P. 

When the factors of power are not subjective (relative to the character: such as levels, classes, skills, unlocks), but material (derived from equipment, upgrades, enchants, resources, whatever currency can translate into direct power), players are misguided into believing that the "progression is fast" or that "the level cap is easily reachable within a short time frame anyway", when in reality in these games the FACTORS OF POWER derive from the material branch. In other words, what commonly we call as "gear grind".

So today I saw the announcement about GUILD WARS 2 RMT and I died a bit inside when I saw the same rethoric speech by ArenaNets' O'Brien about offering "Time-saving convenience items". As if adding the word convenience to it would somehow disguise the pay to win nature of time-saving. And all that disregard the fact that real money will be directly translated into virtual value.

Each day the ethic principles that I grew up as a gamer is shifted into a new ethical paradigm.  To me, adding money into the factor of gaming is unethical. Its not ilegal because we the consumers are unorganized and the moving force behind legislation lobbies wants more consumers spending their money and it will take a few years untill the society embraces this virtual social consumerist phenomn and start to treat us like "real life" consumers are.

I believe that what we can do, as I have written before years ago, is that creating a PREJUDICE, by LABELING NEGATIVELLY SOMETHING WE FEEL STRONGLY AGAINST, such as "PAY TO WIN" (as in "this game is pay to win, wich is bad, therefore it sucks" that became automatized in our mass conscience as modern gamers) is a way to VOTE. Is a way to CRIPPLE, is a way to CHANGE and CAUSE EFFECT.  We have seen that smart developers ARE TRYING DESPERATELY TO STEEM AWAY FROM THE "OUR GAME IS PAY TO WIN" LABELING.

Now what I believe we must do, is start to impregnate the "TIME-SAVING", "TIME SKIPPERS" IS BAD! In the same way we managed to do together against Pay to Win. We must reject RMT MODELS THAT AFFECT THE INTEGRITY of our games.

That is the best we can do and we can easily spread this idea by just repeatedly applying the negative label filled with prejudice against the "time saving convenience items". In the end, they are as prejudicial to the games as the original pay to win, but this time, they are being camouflaged, masqueraded to bypass our perceptive filters.

You can pm me to discuss more if you want, or you can keep this one bumped for great justice somore people read. I know that the dark forces of censorship are strong on this one and even legitimate complaints may be misinterpreted as trolling, but may the light shine with you.

 

Older version created to discuss the issue at the time the first hints of this would be introduced in Guild Wars 2. http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/345045 . Since that topic is beyond revival time frame for bringing it back to the top, and since this one is directly related to Guild Wars 2 on the lights of the new in game experiences thousands of us are having, this one justifies its existance once again.

 

 

Well...I dunno. Personally, there is nothing in the cash shop worth buying except a few character slots and maybe cosmetic item here and there. In fact, initially I planned to put $100 in CS. However, I had another long deep look into CS items and came to the conclusion that it simply isn't worth it. 

Edit: if people decide to spend money and buy some time-saving items well...more power to them I guess. It will not affect my experience what so ever. So meh..:P

Looking forward to EQL and EQN.

  thinktank001

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/08
Posts: 1843

7/22/12 2:00:08 AM#3

P2W doesn't have the " negative " feel to it anymore.   It has become the mainstream description for the cash shop payment model.   Players (consumers) have already realized that the so called " free games " are not free in any form.    We can thank Diablo 3 for this.   Their RMAH has brought to attention the effects that real currency has on games.

 

 

 

  mbrodie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 781

7/22/12 2:01:51 AM#4

see you at launch

  Interesting

Novice Member

Joined: 1/16/08
Posts: 959

 
OP  7/22/12 2:02:56 AM#5

Guild Wars 2 is the best MMORPG release in a long time and I hope them all the best. 

But what is wrong is wrong and I cannot go along with these abuses. Call me bullshit self righteous, Im 27 years old, but my generation is far from done. 

  mbrodie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 781

7/22/12 2:09:47 AM#6
Originally posted by Interesting

Guild Wars 2 is the best MMORPG release in a long time and I hope them all the best. 

But what is wrong is wrong and I cannot go along with these abuses.

i'm sorry you dont have a job to afford something that literally gives a bonus of 40minutes play time and can also be randomly aquired in game anyway..

Fact - during this beta weekend doing tournament PvP in chests i aquired about 6 potions to increase my glory by 50% for an hour... i used one, suprisingly it didnt make me overpowered in PvP.. maybe thats why i have to buy the cash shop version?

 

what did glory buy me... PvP gear tokens and chests to make cosmetic items with the same stats as the normal PvP level 80 gear. again, didnt make me overpowered in PvP i did look totally baller though.

 

i guess seeing people run around with aviator sunglasses on their toon could potentially be unfair to you by no means gamebreaking...

 

my opinion is less QQ it's happening, no one who is playing really cares and you didnt need to write a novel on the subject because no amount of complaining is going to change it.

 

Thankyou for your time and have a nice night

 

Edit - tell people in WoW that are full heroic dragon soul geared that doing more dragon soul is going to make them stronger. sorry to tell you, if you have cleared the latest raid in an MMO on the hardest difficulty and have all gear appropriate to your character you have won the MMO till new content is out and no extra play time is going to make your toon better except for your skill playing him... unfortunatley you cant buy skill in a cash shop.

  sapheroith

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/12
Posts: 122

7/22/12 2:21:12 AM#7

Before, pay to win = gear.

Now, pay to win = time saving item?

I am sure if any other mmo have the same CS, no one would care about it, but it is GW2, people wants attention.

Just out of curiosity, OP, what you think of the scroll of res in wow?

WOW: The Most Well Known Non-Free Non-Browser Client-Based 3D Fantasy MMORPG In Some Parts of the World.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7197

7/22/12 2:25:09 AM#8

I agree with the point OP.  

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  austriacus

Novice Member

Joined: 8/28/07
Posts: 626

7/22/12 2:29:35 AM#9

The reality is that most of the mmorpg community doesnt care. You people make this an integrity issue, a moral issue etc. This just shows you take it too seriously. Most people that play mmorpgs dont care about this kind of view because they just care about having fun, and how fast someone else is progressing doesnt concern them.

 

  OldManFunk

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 900

7/22/12 2:35:03 AM#10

It's still not pay to win.

 

I'm sorry. It's just not pay to win since you can't buy meaningful advantages where players compete (ie: PvP).

 

This reminds me of the old casual vs hardcore argument. Should hardcore players be allowed to gain more than casuals? Is it fair that hardcore players can play 8 hours a day when casuals can only play 8 hours a week? Replace time played with money paid for time based items and it's the same argument all over again.

 

I think the solution is: If you don't like it then don't play. It's obvious that GW2 has a cash shop with exp boosters. If knowing that someone else out there might be gaining more exp in a given time frame than you because you're unwilling to buy cash shop items then don't play GW2 and everyone is happy.

  rissies

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/11
Posts: 162

7/22/12 2:38:58 AM#11
Originally posted by Interesting

Too Long Didnt Read Version:

Whole point is to send the message that its not OK to monetize time and effort

 

 

And I stopped right there.

Yes it is ok. Time is worth something. Effort is worth something. It doesn't matter if it's time and effort spent playing a video game, or time and effort spent at an actual job, they both have value. How the value of one is measured against the other depends greatly on the playerbase. Even without a cash shop of any kind, there would still be the translation of real cash to in-game currency through gold and account sellers, like in every other mmo. A cash shop simply represents a more visible, more palatable, and more easily controlled conversion that can directly benefit the game.

 

  PaRoXiTiC

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 486

7/22/12 2:41:46 AM#12

Geard does matter in World vs World so yes you can Pay To Win in World vs World.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2040

7/22/12 2:42:20 AM#13

I'm still trying to figure out what it is other players can buy that is going to make me, who will not be buying said item, feel like I'm at a disadvantage.  I can't come up with anything.  

  mbrodie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 781

7/22/12 2:43:37 AM#14
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

Geard does matter in World vs World so yes you can Pay To Win in World vs World.

you cant directly buy gear.

 

and gear does not matter.. because end game gear will have same damage on everything.. the only things that will change is the runesets you put on anything and the look of the item.

 

you cant buy runes off cash shop.

  seridan

Novice Member

Joined: 5/26/12
Posts: 1212

7/22/12 2:44:00 AM#15
Originally posted by Interesting


Msnip>

Let's try this from a different angle:

Structured PVP: I'm going to add this because some people might not know about this. You can't have ANY kind of advantage in sPVP by using the Cash Shop because you are leveled to max, have access to all items/skills/traits/ whatever so the competition is healthy.

PVE: If you've forgotten, Guild Wars 2 is a cooperative multiplayer experience.

When you are fighting a big champion boss outside the world, do you ASK the other players what kind of equipment they are using? And more importantly, do you care what kind of equipment the other people around have?

No, and if you answered yes to any of the above then you shouldn't, there is no reason to care what others are doing or what equipement/actual level they are having. So even if they bought items with gold earned by selling gems, or with the magic find booster or with anything else, why should you care?

Why do you feel it's even the least bit important to know the power level of those around you in a cooperative multiplayer experience? It won't prevent you from playing the game, it won't prevent you from having fun, it won't prevent you from completing content.

Also, if someone used a time-skipping item then he probably missed events, he missed all the fun so essentialy he LOST, the point of the game is to have fun and experience new events/encounters not rush to the level cap to start raiding, so I ask again what's the point of worrying over what someone else is doing and how it affects YOU?

Explain how is a time-skipping item giving any kind of advantage or ruins the competition, you don't explain this in your post, you just say it does

WvWvW: After level 30 you should have an almost maxed out character in terms of skills. At around level 40 you should have one trait line maxed and your character ready for combat. Above that the power gain isn't as significant, granted a player without all their skill slots unlocked will be at a disadvantage but this ends at level 30.

Having lots of gold will be useless because of supply. Supply is the mechanic that will make excess gold useless.

Finally WvWvW is all about war, team tactics and coordination win, once the guilds learn the game a bit more I believe we will see some epic battles and no, nobody is going to ask "what's your level" in a serious battle situation.

Block the trolls, don't answer them, so we can remove the garbage from these forums

  OldManFunk

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 900

7/22/12 2:46:02 AM#16
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

Geard does matter in World vs World so yes you can Pay To Win in World vs World.

You can't buy anything that can't be obtained without using the cash shop.

 

If GW2 sold unobtainable weapons or armor from the cash shop then you'd be right but since they don't sell anything like that you're wrong.

 

Even legendaries, the grindiest weapons in the game, won't be anything more than a cosmetic upgrade.

  mbrodie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 781

7/22/12 2:46:57 AM#17
Originally posted by seridan
Originally posted by Interesting


Msnip>

Let's try this from a different angle:

Structured PVP: I'm going to add this because some people might not know about this. You can't have ANY kind of advantage in sPVP by using the Cash Shop because you are leveled to max, have access to all items/skills/traits/ whatever so the competition is healthy.

PVE: If you've forgotten, Guild Wars 2 is a cooperative multiplayer experience.

When you are fighting a big champion boss outside the world, do you ASK the other players what kind of equipment they are using? And more importantly, do you care what kind of equipment the other people around have?

No, and if you answered yes to any of the above then you shouldn't, there is no reason to care what others are doing or what equipement/actual level they are having. So even if they bought items with gold earned by selling gems, or with the magic find booster or with anything else, why should you care?

Why do you feel it's even the least bit important to know the power level of those around you in a cooperative multiplayer experience? It won't prevent you from playing the game, it won't prevent you from having fun, it won't prevent you from completing content.

Also, if someone used a time-skipping item then he probably missed events, he missed all the fun so essentialy he LOST, the point of the game is to have fun and experience new events/encounters not rush to the level cap to start raiding, so I ask again what's the point of worrying over what someone else is doing and how it affects YOU?

Explain how is a time-skipping item giving any kind of advantage or ruins the competition, you don't explain this in your post, you just say it does

WvWvW: After level 30 you should have an almost maxed out character in terms of skills. At around level 40 you should have one trait line maxed and your character ready for combat. Above that the power gain isn't as significant, granted a player without all their skill slots unlocked will be at a disadvantage but this ends at level 30.

Having lots of gold will be useless because of supply. Supply is the mechanic that will make excess gold useless.

Finally WvWvW is all about war, team tactics and coordination win, once the guilds learn the game a bit more I believe we will see some epic battles and no, nobody is going to ask "what's your level" in a serious battle situation.

+1

  Celcius

Novice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 931

7/22/12 2:48:36 AM#18

Since you can only really win when there is competition and the only way you can compete with other players in GW2 is by fighting them in sPvP or WvW the only way you would be paying for the win is if you could buy items which were better then other players in PvP. You cannot because of the way the gear works in this game, so it is not pay to win.  You can also get every cosmetic item and PvE booster in the game from map completions, personal story, drops, and in game gold. 

Funny how I can debunk your entire argument (wall of text) in 3 lines. Honestly man, these threads come up all the time. Every single time the OP gets a handling because of the sheer amount of arguments against this very concept in GW2. I would just stop while you are behind, so you don't get further behind. 

  PaRoXiTiC

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/11/08
Posts: 486

7/22/12 2:51:24 AM#19

You can Pay to Win in World vs World vs World because you can level faster and get better gear. HOWEVER, you cannot Pay to Win in any way, shape, or form in Structured PvP because everyone is equal.

 

It's the best of both worlds. Some people like to gear grind and dominate in PvP with better gear and some people just wanna be equal and fight each other based on skill.

  mbrodie

Elite Member

Joined: 5/15/04
Posts: 781

7/22/12 3:17:19 AM#20
Originally posted by PaRoXiTiC

You can Pay to Win in World vs World vs World because you can level faster and get better gear. HOWEVER, you cannot Pay to Win in any way, shape, or form in Structured PvP because everyone is equal.

 

It's the best of both worlds. Some people like to gear grind and dominate in PvP with better gear and some people just wanna be equal and fight each other based on skill.

 

lol you really have no idea how much the same level 1 - 80 gear is... and not only that but in WvsW your toon is balanced out to the average stats of a level 80 so thats not even an issue... the only issue that comes into play is the amount of skills you would have unlocked and FYI the "exp" boosters only work off monster kills and monsters grant woeful exp... it's been mathed out the time you would save using an exp booster is roughly 20min of gameplay

5 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 » Search