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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

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236 posts found
  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16806

7/21/12 12:41:49 PM#21

To me this is a balance issue. Right now you don´t earn enough in PvP and they need to up that unless they want PvP guilds to either buy gems or to have a PvE part that farms enough gold to keep the PvP going.

But as I said, an easy balancing of the loot in PvP will fix it.

Of course people who play both PvE and PvP wont get this problem anyways, there you get enough cash pretty soon.

  Arachneus1

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/25/06
Posts: 244

7/21/12 12:42:47 PM#22

There are so many things with this and most have been posted

1. You won't fight the strong servers that do this if your server isn't equally matched.  It will be based on a ladder system so the winners fight the winners, 2nd places fight 2nd places, small servers fight small servers (assuming the dont keep winning).

2. Lvl 80 everyone will be able to buy siege equipment like no tommorrow, sure gems will cost a lot more gold because of the high amount of gold everyone will have, but so what?  Gold has nothing to do when you need supply to upgrade or build the equipment.

3. Magic item find potions?  at level 80 all equipment is on an equal power level.  stats may be different but all in all it will be the same +200 percision or +200 power or +200 vitality, those are your choices there won't be an item better than another.

4.  Really all the cash shop items are for an early headstart.  Would you want your server to dominate early and then be paired with servers that are pvp heavy and full opf strategy/good players that are higher level than your small server?

  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

7/21/12 12:46:54 PM#23
Originally posted by Dakirn

What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

 

And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

 

If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

 

I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

Thanks for showing you don't know much about the game!

All having Gold does is allow someone to buy Blueprints. It does nothing for Supply. It does nothing to allow you to build said Blueprints.

And all those Siege Engines that the guy is throwing money at early on? Wiped after no more than 24 hours early after release (as that is their initial time for resetting WvW for more balanced matchups to specifically help combat this and similar problems during Launch) and no more than 2 weeks even later on.

In a game that auto-levels you to 80 in WvW and provides EVERYTHING for free fully maxed-out in sPvP how are those potions "pay to win?" People are even down-leveled to match early content so being a higher level than everybody else doesn't really provide any "advantage" and definitely not any sustainable ones.

I have no issue with people not liking the game. Sheer stupidity or misrepresentation of how the game works? Prepare to be flamed...

  dageeza

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/04
Posts: 580

7/21/12 12:48:06 PM#24

As an avid fan of this game i also severely disagree with anet on charging repairs in PvP especially at low levels as it can break a lowbies financial back and be frustrating..

It also makes it somewhat of a mistruth that you can level up to 80 in pvp alone from lvl 1..

Anet seriously needs to rethink this one..

 

Once a toon is over lvl 20 or so it doesnt really matter because you make more than enough silvers to cover costs but until then it can be rough on a pvp enthusiast that doesnt want to do PvE....

Playing GW2..

  lathaan

Novice Member

Joined: 8/02/04
Posts: 485

7/21/12 12:48:58 PM#25

i read: you were having fun thx to one guy spending cash. you dont like that.

dont you think that, as in every other game, we will have TONS of cash a week after release and no one will care for if you bought it or played for it? bought gold doesnt stink, and 'rich' people will be on every server. if not, there will be even richer (gold-wise) people that just have more time and thus gain gold ingame. there is no way this can influence MY game-experience, and if - its a good influence (see your example).

  Dakirn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/04
Posts: 373

7/21/12 12:50:58 PM#26
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by Dakirn
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Commander gives no advantage.

Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

 

And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

 

If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

 

I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

you do realise you don't fight the same realms all the time right? servers are matched based on rankings. So stronger worlds will get matched up vs other stronger worlds

I do realize that.  But for those 2 weeks the other sides will be out gunned until the re-ranking happens.

 

I voiced my concerns but if nobody else thinks it's a problem I guess we'll see at launch.  I'm a bit disappointed to see that every answer has a rebuttal of "When you're 80..." because I thought there were 79 other levels to the game.

 

While +20% magic drop rate isn't going to help at level 80 it'll help the other 79 levels.  As someone who got far enough in the previous betas to actually GET magical equipment you can't say that the stats aren't important.  It's not the stats on magical gear that's important it's the PASSIVE magical effects that are slotted.  Things like running 20%+ faster, doing more damage, healing faster ARE important after your 20s.

  GamerUntouch

Novice Member

Joined: 5/11/12
Posts: 491

7/21/12 12:52:08 PM#27

1 - 15: 10 silver

15 - 30: 1 gold

 

It increases.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2179

7/21/12 12:55:31 PM#28

I'm confuced, is this about item shop or someone who is rich ingame?

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  Dakirn

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/04
Posts: 373

7/21/12 12:56:08 PM#29
Originally posted by Stx11
Originally posted by Dakirn

What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

 

And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

 

If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

 

I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

Thanks for showing you don't know much about the game!

All having Gold does is allow someone to buy Blueprints. It does nothing for Supply. It does nothing to allow you to build said Blueprints.

And all those Siege Engines that the guy is throwing money at early on? Wiped after no more than 24 hours early after release (as that is their initial time for resetting WvW for more balanced matchups to specifically help combat this and similar problems during Launch) and no more than 2 weeks even later on.

In a game that auto-levels you to 80 in WvW and provides EVERYTHING for free fully maxed-out in sPvP how are those potions "pay to win?" People are even down-leveled to match early content so being a higher level than everybody else doesn't really provide any "advantage" and definitely not any sustainable ones.

I have no issue with people not liking the game. Sheer stupidity or misrepresentation of how the game works? Prepare to be flamed...

You realize that there is an entire PvE part of the game too, right?  Like.. 79 levels worth?  It's unbalancing there.

 

Whether you care about PvE or not that is where a majority of people will be making the most money to buy those Siege Weapons if they don't use the Gem exchange.  Someone who makes a vast majority more in money over you will be purchasing things easier and quicker.

 

Obviously if he was dropping Siege items like candy Blueprints and Supplies weren't an issue.  No, I don't know how to make them but it doesn't negate the fact that gold is used in the process too.

  Loke666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/29/07
Posts: 16806

7/21/12 12:59:02 PM#30
Originally posted by dageeza

As an avid fan of this game i also severely disagree with anet on charging repairs in PvP especially at low levels as it can break a lowbies financial back and be frustrating..

It also makes it somewhat of a mistruth that you can level up to 80 in pvp alone from lvl 1..

Anet seriously needs to rethink this one..

Once a toon is over lvl 20 or so it doesnt really matter because you make more than enough silvers to cover costs but until then it can be rough on a pvp enthusiast that doesnt want to do PvE....

As I said earlier, the real problem is that you don´t earn enough money in PvP, particularly the first week you play.

Easily fixed as long as you people report it as good beta testers should.

It is just another balancing issue, games in betas have tons of different balancing issues.

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

7/21/12 1:02:38 PM#31
Originally posted by Naevius

Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

Lawl... how the fanbois will defend there precious. No pay to win is when items are signifacantly easier to obtain or do through the cash shop. This is how  its been since the beginning, you can't twist definitions just to fit your game sorry.

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  Valentina

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/28/06
Posts: 1664

7/21/12 1:03:12 PM#32

They really shouldn't charge for PvP repairs, not here for that tbh.

  Vunak23

Novice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 659

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

7/21/12 1:04:19 PM#33
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by hikaru77

People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  dageeza

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/04
Posts: 580

7/21/12 1:05:36 PM#34

GW2 is by my definition of an mmo is one of the best raw vanilla releases of all time..

However not everyone is going to like it for various reasons for them i wish em luck at finding that magic game..

 

Playing GW2..

  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

7/21/12 1:05:37 PM#35
Originally posted by Dakirn

In a game that auto-levels you to 80 in WvW and provides EVERYTHING for free fully maxed-out in sPvP how are those potions "pay to win?" People are even down-leveled to match early content so being a higher level than everybody else doesn't really provide any "advantage" and definitely not any sustainable ones.

I have no issue with people not liking the game. Sheer stupidity or misrepresentation of how the game works? Prepare to be flamed...

You realize that there is an entire PvE part of the game too, right?  Like.. 79 levels worth?  It's unbalancing there.

 

Whether you care about PvE or not that is where a majority of people will be making the most money to buy those Siege Weapons if they don't use the Gem exchange.  Someone who makes a vast majority more in money over you will be purchasing things easier and quicker.

 

Obviously if he was dropping Siege items like candy Blueprints and Supplies weren't an issue.  No, I don't know how to make them but it doesn't negate the fact that gold is used in the process too.

First point which you haven't answered - HOW IS IT AN ADVANTAGE IN COOPERATIVE PVE??? How is it "unbalancing" like you said? I can craft excellent gear quite easily as I level up with Stats that are equal to or better than drops. I can participate in Dynamic Events and earn all the Karma I need for quality gear. I am not IN ANY WAY dependent on drops in this game for quality gear.

Second point your last sentence sums things up perfectly - you don't know how the game works but you are proclaiming "PAY TO WIN11!!1!!" Keeps and Depots have limited Supply and while there were enough people to build the Blueprints he initially dropped it is not sustainable. If the other side knows at all what they are doing Supply will be cut off and their own Siege Weapons will be brought to bear.

If you are going to criticize something based on the mechanics LEARN those mechanics before you do so. 

  Brizlyn

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/06
Posts: 66

7/21/12 1:06:31 PM#36
I don't think this game can be considered pay to win, but I like to call it pay to trade. Gold doesn't magically appear for people with gems willing to buy. Gold is earned in game and then may be sold / traded by players to other players for gems. It is a transfer of wealth from player to player but nothing is magically introduced to the economy in that if the supply of in game earned gold is exhausted then no one can buy gold with gems until more gold is earned / comes to market. I this is incorrect please let me know, this is how I understood it to work. -briz
  3-4thElf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

7/21/12 1:09:16 PM#37
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by Naevius

Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

Lawl... how the fanbois will defend there precious. No pay to win is when items are signifacantly easier to obtain or do through the cash shop. This is how  its been since the beginning, you can't twist definitions just to fit your game sorry.

No. Pay to win is when the shop has gear that's significantly better than anything obtainable in game.

Using an item shop to speed up a process (such as gain coins) puts someone willing to spend the cash on par with someone willing to spend the time.

If there were siege weapons only obtainable in the shop and were superior to anything earned by time; then sure.

This isn't Pay to Win, because it wasn't clear if the advantages of the cash clearly won. Just seemed to put them on par with players not spending the cash. 

So go LAWL yerself.

a yo ho ho

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/21/12 1:09:20 PM#38
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by hikaru77

People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

Gaia answered this better below

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Stx11

Novice Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 420

7/21/12 1:11:59 PM#39
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by Naevius

Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

Lawl... how the fanbois will defend there precious. No pay to win is when items are signifacantly easier to obtain or do through the cash shop. This is how  its been since the beginning, you can't twist definitions just to fit your game sorry.

Sorry but what is "signifacantly easier" through the Cash Shop in GW2?

It's not gear.

It's not buffs or advantage of any kind in Structured PvP.

It doesn't grant Supply in WvW.

So other than you hating on the CS - where is this supposed advantage coming from?

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2668

7/21/12 1:12:42 PM#40
Originally posted by Vunak23
Originally posted by Aerowyn
Originally posted by hikaru77

People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

The difference there is GW2 is allowing you to do it legit, where are other games its against the TOS and Rules. So no you can't put GW2 in the same category as those. 

Every time someone spends real money to get in game gold, someone else gets gems to improve its game experience.

That is the difference.

In other games gold farms contribute nothing to the game community-

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also people need to understand that it goes like this:

X Gold + X Supply = X Siege engine.

That means that if I have 50000000000000 gold but the game only has 1000 supply there is a bottleneck.

1000 Gold + 1000 Supply = 1000 siege engines

Enter "P2W real money":

5000000000000000000000 Gold + 1000 Supply = 1000 engines.

Nothing changed.

There is a limiting reagent that is only controlled by the game and player skills.

 

 

 

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo

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