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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

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236 posts found
  lightblade

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/19/06
Posts: 220

7/23/12 10:06:13 PM#221

Not pay to win

Just one person buying ten thousand gold and build siege engines is not going to win the game, because you're forgetting another aspect of the game: SUPPLY

Supply must be kept flowing by caravan. Disrupting supply caravan can have significant consequences. Each siege engine needs a good amount of supply to build. Each player can only carry 10 supplies. You'll need 9 other people to play with you to succeed.

To win, you need: cash, large amount of people that listens to you (not easy), having the know how of positioning siege so they don't get destroyed.

 

WvW is not as simple as you think.

  terrant

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/07
Posts: 1685

7/23/12 10:41:00 PM#222
Originally posted by Atlan99
Originally posted by terrant
Here's the problem Atlan. There's nothing you can do buy buying tons and tons of gold that I can't do earning it naturally. The costs of any of the items that require gold simply are not that high.

Upgrades cost more than blueprint in general. I also assume you intend to make that money through PvE. Which means I'm still having an impact in WvWvW while you are farming the money to be able to do so.

MAYBE for the first 1-2 phases of WvW, it would make a difference. I'll bow to you there. But once a decent number of players can make a couple gold an hour (hell, even 20 silver an hour or so) or more just logging in and goofing around, then the advantage of the goldbuyer becomes nil.

I've stated several times that the advantage would be at launch. This is obvious from taking part in the BWE. How long it takes for this advantage  to go away is hard to say. However even 20 silver an hour. It would take you 2 hours to be able to afford some of the bottom upgrades.

 

Granted. but 20 silver an hour was a VERY pessimistic episode.

 

I do agree with your point about you being in WvW duing that time "having an impact" as you put it. The major problem with that is WvW is not lucrative enough yet. Hopefully that will improve, Anet's stated the drops aren't where they want them yet. 

 

  ZoS0

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/04
Posts: 11

7/23/12 10:47:08 PM#223

I just wanna say. I've read every page in this thread and I love to see the well thought out posts. I don't agree with the OP but I can respect the concern. I think there is alot to learn in WvW and some people are still learning the basics. It's not as simple as laying seige and owning the field. There is alot of strategy and planning needed for it to be successful. All I know is I had a friggin blast this BWE and I cannot wait for launch! 

  minttunator

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/09
Posts: 132

7/24/12 5:11:35 AM#224
Originally posted by Fadedbomb
Originally posted by minttunator

It would be beneficial to the integrity of the game, since those people would get their accounts/credit cards stolen and/or be banned from the game if caught. It wouldn't, however, be beneficial for NCsoft's bottom line - which is why we have the cash shop that we have. :)

Your statement makes no sense. GoldSellers will ALWAYS undercut any going rate for in-game P2W cashshops that allow you to purchase currency. It happened in 9dragons, and other Asian MMOs. Why do you seem to think it won't happen in GW2?

I didn't say it won't happen in GW2. In fact, I'm pretty sure it will - I'm just saying that NCsoft will make more money with the system they've put in place, since many people will choose to buy their gold legally (as there's less risk of getting banned/hacked). :)

  LordArthas

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/04
Posts: 32

7/24/12 6:31:25 AM#225

This debate is pointless. It all comes down to what you consider p2w. GW2 cash shop treads the line apparently.

 

It is not Asian MMO style where you can straight up buy end game gear, dmg boosts, hp pots, and so on.

 

It also not JUST selling costumes,character slots, and bank tabs either.

 

Personally I don't find GW2 cash shop P2W. Provided that within a reasonable time after being 80 I can do enough dungeon runs to get my max-stat gear and not feel compelled to buy gems->gold->max crafting gear. By "reasonable" I mean within a month or so. Also, the time spent getting said gear should be fun.

This is in stark contrast to standard P2W MMOs where to even stand a chance at getting the worst of the end-game items they sell without cash requires weeks/months of nonstop mob grinding for a super rare drop. GW2 token system seems to show this will not be the case.

When it comes to WvW, hopefully, once most people are 80, they will all have enough gold to lay down siege weapons without issue, and there is also badges that can be used.

Another matter is boosts, which while technically an advantage, it's not an advantage anything I really consider to be a competition. So what you made it 80 a week before I did. Hope it was worth it paying for a HOURLY boost. You got better drops too? Well eventually I will reach the gear plateu and it won't make a bit of difference. And so on....

6 months after release, Mr. BigBucks and friends will be on equal footing with everyone else statwise. They may have mad bling from phat stacks of gold, pimped armors, and every dye in the game, but in WvW and SPvP, it won't matter.

So I guess TLDR: I don't consider it P2W unless it offers an advantage in PvP, or extreme amounts of time savings (asian style) in aquiring end game gear.

  Celcius

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/20/04
Posts: 949

7/24/12 6:49:52 AM#226

Not pay to win. Items are not like other games and only matter during leveling. Gems only buy cosmetic items and small boosters that are not worth it even if you are willing to spend the money. (50% bonus on combat exp..lol) Structured PvP (the main competitive aspect of GW2) won't have any advantage to buying gems. WvW stats balance out so gear does not matter. Cosmetic items from gem store are only usable in town clothes. (so not in combat, and not usually anywhere close to combat) 

I should just copy and paste this into every "legendary" "GW2 IS PAY TO WIN OMFGWTFBBQ!" thread. Infact, opening up a text file now.

  Rhianni32

Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/10
Posts: 223

7/24/12 8:16:00 AM#227

OMG guys wait!! If they launch the game at early morning like at say 8 AM Eastern time then the East coast US players will have a couple hours head start over the Pacific time zone on launch day!

GW2 is just "Time-zone to win"

  ennymith

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/09
Posts: 116

7/24/12 9:25:17 AM#228

The polllyanna responses here that no one is going to spend piles of money consistently to have the best possible scenario is just totally out of sync with what can be observed in just about every competitve human activity where economics can make a difference.  I know from personal observation in other MMORPGs that some players/guilds spend upwards of  thousands of real dollars a month on large scale PVP game buffs, supplies, consumables, quickly leveling up using cash shop XP boosts to make new members max level and fully skilled and then paying members to show up for battles. 

 

GW2, after 5 years of hype, turns out to be just another Asian end game cash shop grinder. Now that sales have dropped off, F2P can't be far off.

  OldManFunk

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 900

7/24/12 10:01:46 AM#229
Originally posted by ennymith

The polllyanna responses here that no one is going to spend piles of money consistently to have the best possible scenario is just totally out of sync with what can be observed in just about every competitve human activity where economics can make a difference.  I know from personal observation in other MMORPGs that some players/guilds spend upwards of  thousands of real dollars a month on large scale PVP game buffs, supplies, consumables, quickly leveling up using cash shop XP boosts to make new members max level and fully skilled and then paying members to show up for battles. 

 

You can get to 80 faster with boosts and trade gems for gold but neither will give you an advantage.

 

I predict that the first people to hit 80 will do so in less than 4 days time. Most hardcore players that focus on leveling a single character will start to hit 80 in about 2 weeks. Gold may seem hard to get at level 15 in a 2 day beta weekend but that's going to change very quickly when the game goes live.

 

So less than one month after the game goes live, where does that leave us?

Many people are already 80 and getting to 80 isn't a challenge.

Cash shop items don't give an advantage in sPvP or WvW.

You won't need to sell gems in order to be able to afford blueprints.

Blueprint   Coins or     Badges for Blueprint     Supplies needed to build  
Flame Ram  4 Silver coin.png 2 Badge of Honor.png 40
Arrow cart  4 Silver coin.png 2 Badge of Honor.png 20
Ballista  6 Silver coin.png 3 Badge of Honor.png 30
Catapult  8 Silver coin.png 4 Badge of Honor.png 50
Trebuchet  16 Silver coin.png 4 Badge of Honor.png 50
Alpha Siege Golem Gold coin.png 40 Badge of Honor.png 100

 

Guild Wars 2 PvE is cooperative.

 

So what exactly is the advantage in Guild Wars 2 that justifies the pay to win label assigned by the OP?

  StrixMaxima

Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/09
Posts: 890

7/24/12 10:03:13 AM#230

It's really dreadful to read  so much misinformation and jacked speculation in a single thread.

The MMO Market has changed, whether gamers like it or not. The subscription model is already a thing of the past. Only a selective few Western titles still cling to it. As the new current business model is F2P, the companies need to create ways to generate revenue from titles.

There are good and bad ways to do so. The 'bad' way is the traditional Korean/Chinese model of F2P with heavy focus on cash shop buffs, to the point of the game being almost unplayable unless you buy you way into it. The good way is how Anet did it for GW2: AAA production title, with a Cash Shop that sells some services (some of which are also paid in P2P games) and heavily oriented towards cosmetics and other perks.

People who complain GW2 is P2W or a Cash Shop dependent game have no idea what they are talking about. They obviously haven't seen how bad Cash Shops can get, and they have some distorted view about the role of in-game currency has in GW2 (due to the fact that you can exchange Gold for Gems, which are bought with real money).

Of course, we can be speculative and say that if they decided already to implement a Cash Shop, Anet could be persuaded later on to perform a Black Mess in their Attic, sacrificing 7 WoW Fans to obtain the favors of Beelzecash, overlord fo the Perverse Cash Shops, sealing the fate of the game with direct combat boosts and PvP sets. Sure, we can do that. But is there any indication that this will happen? No. Anet already has experience with Cash Shops in GW1, and the game is still a success today.

If you are do debilitatingly irritated by the Cash Shop, Never click that small little button there, and you are good to go. Play the game, still be competitive as the guy next door, and have fun your way. It's not like LotRO, where you have thousands buttons of BUY NOW spread throughout the game's interface.

And, if you are REAALLY mad, simple ask for a refund now. Anet is granting those, hassle free, for those who hated the game for some reason or another.

But don't weave complex tales of idiocy about the Cash Shop, please. You are only making yourself look stupid for those who played the game and know how things work.

  Nanfoodle

Elite Member

Joined: 5/23/06
Posts: 3709

7/24/12 10:30:20 AM#231

Not worried about this for 3 reasons:

1. As the OP said level 80 cash will be a different ball game. Also you will have guilds working together to fund their WvW efforts. Every orgnized guild is going to show up with all the toys. This is a fact. I am a old school DAoC player and this is how all guilds rolled.

2nd is not many people have a endless supply of cash to keep them top dog. 

3rd is the most important to remember. ANet has said they dont want GW2 to be pay 2 win. If things are out of balance, be sure that ANet will fix it. If they dont, ANet stands to lose a lot of players. They know this.

  p_c_sousa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/31/08
Posts: 627

7/26/12 3:43:34 AM#232
Originally posted by lifeordinary
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Originally posted by lifeordinary

Who gives a f*** which MMO takes MMO OF THE YEAR reward as if it means anything. Eve was nominated MMO of the year many times and i wouldn't even touch it.

Also back to topic, right now the only fix is to boost the money rewards in PVP at lower levels because a lot of players like me would be playing GW2 for PVP alone. And i certainly don't want people to buy seige and stuff because they can spend more rl money through gems.

It might not be  a problem at high levels but since you can start pvp at lvl 1 in GW2 it is certainly a problem for low level players.

WvW isn't PvP.

WvW isn't perfectly balanced.

It is a PvE/PvP hybrid.

WHAT?

what what? WvW isnt only pvp, is a mix of PvE and PvP...... and isnt supposed to be balanced either. 

  Mothanos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 1885

7/26/12 3:46:17 AM#233

Never had money problems tbh....

I conquered keeps and towers left and right all day and ended up with 13 silver from doing WvW alone from level 3 :)

1 thing that is anoying is my gear breaks down fast tough :(

Hope this will get slightly adjusted before release.

 

  GoldenArrow

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 1142

7/26/12 4:51:55 AM#234
Originally posted by Nanfoodle

Not worried about this for 3 reasons:

1. As the OP said level 80 cash will be a different ball game. Also you will have guilds working together to fund their WvW efforts. Every orgnized guild is going to show up with all the toys. This is a fact. I am a old school DAoC player and this is how all guilds rolled.

2nd is not many people have a endless supply of cash to keep them top dog. 

3rd is the most important to remember. ANet has said they dont want GW2 to be pay 2 win. If things are out of balance, be sure that ANet will fix it. If they dont, ANet stands to lose a lot of players. They know this.

1) That's how it should be. With GW2 a one player can put effort of 20 players in a slash of a credit card. I doubt any serious guilds are going to avoid the CS. It'll be a big part of WvW.

2) You'd be suprised how much cash people use in CS that sell "power".

3) It's B2P A.Net doesn't give a crap about  retention as long as the players come back for the expansions. They want to keep the CS selling so the revenue will keep coming.

The whole statement from A.net that WvWvW is/ will not be balanced is retarded. The only balanced PvP in this game is the instanced one and that feels like playing Counter-Strike. Job well done! :P

  p_c_sousa

Novice Member

Joined: 3/31/08
Posts: 627

7/26/12 5:47:53 AM#235

what guild need to trade gems for gold???? that must be a very small guild, my guild with just some day could have lot of gold (and we werent even work for that). this with low lvl characters, now imagine with most of guiildies with 80 lvl characters.

dont know in what kind of guild some people are to think gold is hard to get and i need to remember almost all siege weapon (except silly golem) are almost free, 4-7s is nothing to a serious guild. 

  ennymith

Novice Member

Joined: 5/03/09
Posts: 116

7/26/12 10:01:58 AM#236

I will just put it this way, if you think you are going to be successful in WvW without a significant monthly outlay of cash greater than the average game sub, I think you have a surprise in store. 

GW2, after 5 years of hype, turns out to be just another Asian end game cash shop grinder. Now that sales have dropped off, F2P can't be far off.

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