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General Discussion  » I finally understand the Pay to Win argument

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236 posts found
  DanitaKusor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/09
Posts: 537

 
OP  7/21/12 9:57:38 AM#1

After spending a good portion of today in WvW I finally understand why people are saying this game is Play-to-win and I am starting to agree with that assertion.

My experience in WvW was limited money gain vs. high repair costs every time I died which was leaving most of the team naked because they couldn't afford to repair their armour when we were originally matched against a full server and got slaughtered every time we stepped outside the door.

Later after the matchups changed we were left with a better situtation and got some more people on the server after people were transferring off full servers because they couldn't get into WvW (my server never had a queue for any of the zones).  So we managed to take some castles and I made a bit of money from those captures, but still certainly not enough to buy siege weapons of any kind.  I had about 12silver when I finished, but needed to spend 10s of that on the manual to unlock traits, so a 2s profit from a full day of WvW.

Anyway, I went off to dinner and when I came back I found a new player had arrived in the zone on our side.  He had bought the commander title (now 100g), and had started laying out siege engines like candy with each battle, including golems which are 1g a piece.  He paid for every keep upgrade at our two main keeps leading up to Stonemist and put up arrow carts, cannons, mortars, and a trebuchet as defensive weapons. on the walls.

The end result was that although we were heavily outnumbered still vs. the blue server which was another full server we were able to smash through the walls of Stonemist several times and nearly took it.  When we were eventually driven back, the enemy players came into range out of newly fortified keeps and were slaughtered by the dozens and forced to retreat, even though they had larger numbers.  The fight was still going on when I logged off so I'm not sure where it will end.

The end result was through the actions of one player who was buying gems and changed them into gold (current rate is 50silver per 100gems), my server was able to move into second place and threaten the main keep in the Eternal Battlegrounds.

Now perhaps by the time people reach 80 we will be earning enough coin that this won't be an issue, but certainly as it stands in the beta at the moment the person willing to spend RL money on gems can make a huge difference to a server.  It's so much easier when every time you are assaulting a keep someone turns up with 2 rams and a ballista or a golem instead of trying to take the door down by hand.

I hadn't spent much time in WvW in previous beta but seeing this in action today it was a real eye opener. 

Edit: Fixed the title, that's what comes from lack of sleep.

The Enlightened take things Lightly

  User Deleted
7/21/12 10:00:26 AM#2

You are low level... don't forget that. The money income at 80 will make what you can earn now insignificant.

EDIT: just saw you mentionned that at the end of the post :)

  ictown

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/23/12
Posts: 124

7/21/12 10:02:05 AM#3
Originally posted by DanitaKusor

After spending a good portion of today in WvW I finally understand why people are saying this game is Play-to-win and I am starting to agree with that assertion.

My experience in WvW was limited money gain vs. high repair costs every time I died which was leaving most of the team naked because they couldn't afford to repair their armour when we were originally matched against a full server and got slaughtered every time we stepped outside the door.

Later after the matchups changed we were left with a better situtation and got some more people on the server after people were transferring off full servers because they couldn't get into WvW (my server never had a queue for any of the zones).  So we managed to take some castles and I made a bit of money from those captures, but still certainly not enough to buy siege weapons of any kind.  I had about 12silver when I finished, but needed to spend 10s of that on the manual to unlock traits, so a 2s profit from a full day of WvW.

Anyway, I went off to dinner and when I came back I found a new player had arrived in the zone on our side.  He had bought the commander title (now 100g), and had started laying out siege engines like candy with each battle, including golems which are 1g a piece.  He paid for every keep upgrade at our two main keeps leading up to Stonemist and put up arrow carts, cannons, mortars, and a trebuchet as defensive weapons. on the walls.

The end result was that although we were heavily outnumbered still vs. the blue server which was another full server we were able to smash through the walls of Stonemist several times and nearly took it.  When we were eventually driven back, the enemy players came into range out of newly fortified keeps and were slaughtered by the dozens and forced to retreat, even though they had larger numbers.  The fight was still going on when I logged off so I'm not sure where it will end.

The end result was through the actions of one player who was buying gems and changed them into gold (current rate is 50silver per 100gems), my server was able to move into second place and threaten the main keep in the Eternal Battlegrounds.

Now perhaps by the time people reach 80 we will be earning enough coin that this won't be an issue, but certainly as it stands in the beta at the moment the person willing to spend RL money on gems can make a huge difference to a server.  It's so much easier when every time you are assaulting a keep someone turns up with 2 rams and a ballista or a golem instead of trying to take the door down by hand.

I hadn't spent much time in WvW in previous beta but seeing this in action today it was a real eye opener. 

I spent in pve and leveled up to 8 and I already earned 13 silver..and then I headed straight to WvWvW. I had no problems with money. Of course going through what you wen't through I didn't buy any siege weapons. Edit: its a wait and see

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/21/12 10:04:59 AM#4

i don't see how this would be a big issue once people get some levels and decent amount of gold.. only reason this may be an issue now is no one is a decent level and able to get gold since the wipe.. give the game a week after launch and I bet you won't have an issue like this

I also assume you meant "pay to win" since obviously you would need to "PLAY" to win:)

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Kalafax

Novice Member

Joined: 9/05/05
Posts: 502

7/21/12 10:06:39 AM#5

Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win, cause people are going to think this has to do with RL cash pay to win, which is doesnt.

If people have progressed further and accumulated more gold in game, naturally they are going to have a ass ton of more resources to draw from then you, its the penalty for joining at a low level, the flip side is you can still pvp, have fun, gain xp, and level in the pvp zones, but you are at a disadvantage, you should have expected it.

 

All I hear is an awesome story where a small army was able to hold their own or prevail over a larger army because of better resources, sounds fair to me.

Mess with the best, Die like the rest

  Shroom_Mage

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/05
Posts: 871

It's all or nothin'!

7/21/12 10:10:39 AM#6
Once everyone is 80 you'll be limited more by supply, and the gold costs will feel more like a money sink than a restriction.

I do wish they'd change the cost of the commander title to medals, though. Gold doesn't demonstrate WvW experience at all, which means that any clown who farmed enough PvE (or bought enough gems), to pretend like he's some kind of leader.

Also, don't forget that when someone does this sort of thing, it decreases the gold cost of gems, making it easier for everyone to buy more important things like character slots and bank tabs.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  Mechanism

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/21/09
Posts: 104

7/21/12 10:13:28 AM#7
The money you earn in wvw is based on your level. If it goes up exponentially then i can't imagine anyone at 80 being unable to afford seige blueprints.
  Halandir

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 743

7/21/12 10:13:28 AM#8
Originally posted by Dalgor

Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win

 

Erm yeah - "Play" to win got me confused.... OP was an ok read though. Balanced view and not troll-like.

Only interested in structured and might enjoy a few minutes of WvWvW here and there: Basically at max on my PvE char which seems fine anyway.

 

We dont need casuals in our games!!! Errm... Well we DO need casuals to fund and populate our games - But the games should be all about "hardcore" because: We dont need casuals in our games!!!
(repeat ad infinitum)

  Justsomenoob

Novice Member

Joined: 10/20/10
Posts: 869

7/21/12 10:13:43 AM#9

This is the kind of thing I could only see being meaningful the first week of the game's release, two weeks tops.

Beyond that everyone's (well maybe not everyone, but lots of people on any WvWvW team) going to have more than enough money to fund all this stuff, supply will be the limiting factor instead.

  Shroom_Mage

Novice Member

Joined: 9/21/05
Posts: 871

It's all or nothin'!

7/21/12 10:15:29 AM#10


Originally posted by Dalgor
Firstly you really need to make your post say gold pay to win, cause people are going to think this has to do with RL cash pay to win, which is doesnt.

If people have progressed further and accumulated more gold in game, naturally they are going to have a ass ton of more resources to draw from then you, its the penalty for joining at a low level, the flip side is you can still pvp, have fun, gain xp, and level in the pvp zones, but you are at a disadvantage, you should have expected it.

All I hear is an awesome story where a small army was able to hold their own or prevail over a larger army because of better resources, sounds fair to me.


Did you miss the part where you can buy gold with gems? It's obvious the guy with all that gold didn't farm hundreds of it in a couple hours unless he found some sort of exploit.

"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss

  Naevius

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 319

7/21/12 10:19:27 AM#11

Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2696

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

7/21/12 10:25:16 AM#12
Originally posted by Naevius

Unless there is some advantage that is only obtainable from RMT (gems) and not from gold, the 'pay to win' argument is still invalid.

Sorry but you can say the same thing for damn near 90% of the F2P mmos out there. Even if the chance is .00000000001% you can still get that cash shop item in game!


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  atticusbc

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/22/07
Posts: 1067

I hated hipsters before hating hipsters was cool.

7/21/12 10:27:08 AM#13
yeah. you'll have enough money at later levels. at level 15 i had no issue with the cost. it's negligible.
  elvenwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 136

7/21/12 10:28:59 AM#14

Also, in this last beta weekend all the gems you buy are remboursed when the game start.

So any gem that guy used for that WvWvW will be back the day the game start.

Also as other have pointed out, when the game will be out, you'll see higher levels with quite a different kind of income from questing, at that point if you want to spend real money or grind for some gold will make no difference, the end result will be the same.

If ever give an option to people that have more money then time to help the server to be equipped in PvP

 

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5120/7210363296_8357bee9de.jpg

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2610

7/21/12 10:37:34 AM#15

Commander gives no advantage.

Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  hikaru77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 967

7/21/12 11:10:44 AM#16

People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/21/12 11:14:41 AM#17
Originally posted by hikaru77

People really need to understand that GW2 is a B2P game with a cash shop, the people who spend RL money will have an advantage to level up and get money faster, thats how a CS works, Anet and NCsoft are not saints, they want you spending a lot of money. And we dont know how the economy will works at 80, so the ¨you´ll have a lot of money at 80¨ argument dont know how valid is, and again, people spending RL money will get gold more faster and easy even at 80, and when u need to farm gold for 2 days to buy a ¨item X¨ but a guy using RL money on the CS for a few minutes will earn the same amount of gold  and buy that item before you, thats ¨Pay to Win¨.  

well considering every single MMO out has hundreds of sites for gold farmers you could say any single MMO is pay to win in that regard. Most people who say pay to win mean you can buy items that make you "stronger" than people who do not pay for items and those items are ONLY available to players who pay real money,  not that they can get stuff faster that is not pay to win.

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  Dakirn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/16/04
Posts: 368

7/21/12 11:27:39 AM#18
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Commander gives no advantage.

Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

 

And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

 

If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

 

I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

  Aerowyn

Novice Member

Joined: 2/20/12
Posts: 7969

7/21/12 11:34:24 AM#19
Originally posted by Dakirn
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter

Commander gives no advantage.

Siege weapons cost gold and a asston of supply.

For someone being able to spam siege weapons they also need supply, and that means they are kicking ass already.

You don't even know if he bought those many gems himself or if other members of guild were pooling him.

Still in the end, you didn't win. You performed better because you got leadership.

What if 2 people did it instead of 1?  3? 4? What is the cuttoff point before you consider this a possible problem?

 

And the argument is "well just wait until people make money for themselves" is a bit moot.  If people are controlling WvWvW from the FIRST day of the game, getting the bonuses, reaping the rewards.. how much harder will it be for others to catch up?  Not only did they have a substantial head start but they were gaining profit in addition to YOUR profits.  You will NEVER catch up.

 

If one person figured this out in the first day it was available to do others will do.  It's going to become pay-to-win very quickly.

 

I was a bit upset at the pay-to-win potions ($2 for an hour of bonus XP or Magical Item Drop Rate boost?? Self rez stones.. etc) but after hearing this I'm even more concerned.

you do realise you don't fight the same realms all the time right? servers are matched based on rankings. So stronger worlds will get matched up vs other stronger worlds

I angered the clerk in a clothing shop today. She asked me what size I was and I said actual, because I am not to scale. I like vending machines 'cause snacks are better when they fall. If I buy a candy bar at a store, oftentimes, I will drop it... so that it achieves its maximum flavor potential. --Mitch Hedberg

  JaggaSpikes

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 407

7/21/12 11:39:56 AM#20

doesn't gold come from player's actions only? it's not spawned by cash, but time invested. there is only so much gold to go around. WvW looks like gold sink to me.

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