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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » "There has yet to be a virtual world that even comes close to the number of things you can do in Ultima Online." True or False?

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146 posts found

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/21/07
Posts: 1727

7/20/12 5:09:09 PM#61
Originally posted by Interesting

Example of things you can/could do in EVE and Star Wars Galaxies that come close to Ultima Online?


as an eve player on and off (mostly on) since 2007 i can speak with good authority tht there are a ton of ways to pass your time in eve and a bazillion niches for your character to fill.  I cannot comment on UO and the difference between them simply because i never played UO.


in eve you can


run PVE missions for a faction

run production on a small or grand scale (production is always needed because in eve your stuff has the nasty habit of blowing up)

run goods in your freighter for others, sometimes through dangerous space (space trucker!  i always wanted to do that in eve)

run home defense for a 0.0 corp in nullsec (living off the land in downtime)

run capital ship production which requires coordinating dozens of tradeskillers and collectors as well as amassing a small fortune)

fly capitals for a 0.0 corp

fly small gang PVPin 0.0 or lowsec roams

fly solo pvp as an ebil piwate or goodie 2shooz piwat hunter

fly for your race in faction warfare

research t2 blueprints out of t1

live in a wormhole with a t3 building corp

do large scale mining in high sec or in null sec

go to the tradehub of your choice and run your financial scam of choice

tutor others in eve university or in agony unleashed or in TGRADS

amass loads of cash by buying from one area and traveling it to the other and selling it there at a hgher price

be a spy for your alliance by joining another one and reporting their seekrit strategies back to your acutal one (this one brought to you by my serbian heroes 4life, Circle-of-two)

join a NRDS corp who lives in the 0.0 equivalent of a hippy commune

do exploration for complexes and anomalies to get expensive faction loot

run logistics, blackops, or another specialized pvp role other than just shooting stuff

manage a POS or a group of POS!

literally build a space station that will exist forever in the game (in 0.0, called an outpost and my fondest moment in eve when my alliance at the time put one up!)



and i bet other eve players will add stuff i missed.

RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.

Currently Playing EVE, DFUW

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.

Dwight D Eisenhower

My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.

Henry Rollins


Novice Member

Joined: 2/14/04
Posts: 992

7/20/12 6:29:33 PM#62


Quite a number of games around even (Haven & Hearth, Xsyon, Wurm, StarQuest, Eve, Perpetuum) that come close enough, and I've prolly forgotten some.


I maintain this List of Sandbox MMORPGs. Please post or send PM for corrections and suggestions.


Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2337

7/20/12 7:03:50 PM#63

Some things I didn't see mentioned yet, and then some comments....

  • There were bulletin boards at the banks and a few other primary buildings where players could leave messages for others, notes for what they would like to buy, player run events, whatever, for other players to read. They later came out with these that players could place at their own houses.
  • There were a few liquid containors that you could use. For example pitchers that you could pore out of into several forms of mugs/cups and then drink. They could hold water, milk, wine, ale, etc.
  • You spoke to NPC using a "keyword" system. Say "rumor" to them and they would tell you a rumor. These rumors included real time magic items nearby on wondering MOBs. Or you could say the keyword "seen" and a player's name, and the NPC would tell you in what direction that player was if the NPC had seen that player recently.  This system was also used for "quests", or for information during events. They also had Town Cryer NPCs that would spout out what was happening currently involving GM events and storylines.
  • Not all objects in the game world could be picked up, but many could be. Anything a player looted, made, or bought could be dropped and picked up. They could be "stacked" on top of eachother. These things changed over time because of unintended player use, for example players figured out they could stack gold coins (mopney was an object, not just a number) next to a player owned keep and build a stairway to the top, to gain access of a locked keep.
  • Every object could be clicked on for name, and double clicked to "use". Not all objects could be "used", but some were discoveries. For example most crystal balls in dungeons were just that and nothing more, so clicking on them would give you the object name "crystal ball", and double clicking did nothing for most. But a very few said something to you if you "used" them this way.
  • Communication crystals, these were used as sets. They acted like a chat room, basically. But it was in game, you'd see the text of what the other person said over the crystal, no matter how far away they were. That was if the crystals were on the ground, if in your backpack you saw it as a private message. I remember one GM event where we were surrounding a small house that was discovered as a meeting place for the GM led "bad guys" (other players recruited by the GMs). Someone snuck up and placed a communication crystal in a bag beside the house. The "bad guys" didn't notice it, and we listened in on their "private" plans as they talked inside this hideout.
  • You could make furniture and place it in your house wherever you wanted. Tables, chairs, and various containers including book cases. As someone mentioned, you could write in empty books, and players made their own libraries with these as well as "game" books (like Skyrim has).
  • Players made their own taverns in a similar way.
  • Players made their own auction houses like this too.
  • Players also made temples, meeting halls, whatever they wanted due to the richness of this system.
  • In the earlier days of UO there was a lot of player interaction, both good and bad. Guilds were against eachother sometimes, and even the GM run events often had players trying to accomplish things. There was spying going on similar to Eve. So there were a few "secret societies". I was in several. We used tricks as communication for the group. Certain items placed on the ground as indicators, tamed pets (you could set their names) released in an area, combinations, etc. This allowed our spies to act inside of other guilds and a means for us to do basic communications with them live, while they were with "the enemy". They would know if we were in the area, and in what general direction, or if we were deeper in a dungeon, or if we had an ambush set up, things like that. Since UO had "Alts", we could identify ourselves with an unknown character to the group. Things like that.
Overall, UO was the only game that I have played that was really ALIVE.

Once upon a time....


Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 468

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

7/20/12 7:13:11 PM#64
Originally posted by dave6660

My corp used to play football in Eve Online with a can and cruisers with tractor beams and ewar.  We would setup containers as goal lines on both sides.

Could you do that in UO?

How did you "tackle" a ball carrier and steal the can?

Where's the any key?


Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 116

7/20/12 7:23:04 PM#65

There are worlds that predate UO with comparable numbers of options.


Of course, they're all MUDs, but they fit under the virtual world heading nontheless.

Playing: FFXIV, EVE


Advanced Member

Joined: 9/23/04
Posts: 368

7/20/12 7:25:55 PM#66

Shadowbane was pretty close imo (played both).


Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2337

7/20/12 7:29:47 PM#67
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas
Originally posted by dave6660

My corp used to play football in Eve Online with a can and cruisers with tractor beams and ewar.  We would setup containers as goal lines on both sides.

Could you do that in UO?

How did you "tackle" a ball carrier and steal the can?

In UO some players came up with a game called "Bagball". They took a colored bag (another thing you could do in UO was "dye" many items to a wide range of colors, including regular clothing), and put so much weight in it that a player couldn't put it in their inventory. But you could pick it up "here" and drop it "there" to move it down the field. The object was to move it into the goal, and the basic match involved who could pick it up first to move it in their direction. UO eventually added a new item that looked like a giant socker ball and acted like a containor, and even added a "Bagball Field" stadium to the game.

Once upon a time....


Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

7/20/12 7:33:39 PM#68


I find this statement factual.

I mean there are a few close ones. Second Life, but it's not really a game. Some of the non-pvp sandboxes like A Tale in the Desert want to live up to UO's example, but there's no PVP and therefore no conquest.

Ryzom sorta close. I think it's been the most inspired by UO newer type game to come along.

I think the closest themepark-ish title was UO. Honestly there was a lot to that game, but it started a lot of the modern themepark features so it's freedom wasn't exactly in the same vein as UO. 

We need UO2.

a yo ho ho


Novice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 468

To err is human, but to really f*ck things up you need a computer.

7/20/12 7:35:03 PM#69
Originally posted by ahumata

Not sure why the list still hasnt been provided. Then again if it had, a lot of people who say "Eve, Perpetuum, this, that" would probably realized they're wrong. I had an active account from 98 to 2008, didnt play much after AoS but still did, so I have no idea what they put in since 2008. More stuff no doubt:

I'm putting this UO list so that people can compare against it and soon find out how short they come on options offered by those other games since UO.


In UO, besides killing stuff you could:

- Stealth around picking locked chests in dungeons. Ninja raiding, doing certain anomoly sites

- Herd, Tame, train and sell pets Build and sell drones + fighters

- Go fishing, fish up rares and lost treasure (the bigger stuff involved fighting) Exploration, hacking/archaeology

- Grow plants Sounds like a resource extraction system, Eve has 9 of them.

- Build, decorate and sell houses. That includes creating new decoration elements through optical illusion, which was a UO art in itself. Build space stations, sell them if you feel like it.

- Snoop people's backpacks and steal their stuff if you felt so inclined Blow people up and loot their wrecks

- Hunt for rares, trade them Hunt officer mods in complexes, trade them

- Harvest all kinds of resources (obviously) As mentioned above, Eve has 9 different resource extraction methods: mining ice, mining asteroids, harvesting gas, moon mining through a POS, salvaging, hacking, archaeology, planetary interaction and R&D agents

- Cook, tinker, make potions, furniture, clothes you name it, whether it was for use, trade or vanity. Crafting is unrivaled at this point. 99% of the items a player can have in EVE that aren't skillbooks or blueprint originals are crafted or sourced by players. Eve has over 9000 different items in it.

- Get on your boat, sail around and explore Get in a ship, fly around and explore (and die if you're not careful)

- Do a lot of social stuff that was in some way or other supported by game mechanics and not just total "let's pretend" One word: Nullsec

- Move heavy objects around so to create improvised structures Deploy a set of inventory containers in open space to spell out sentences, rearrange the structures of a POS to make it look like a giant dick with balls...the list goes on

- Craft and enchant and otherwise modify (color, name) magical items with various properties to your liking Ship fitting in Eve, you could completely alter the capabilities and role of a ship by simply tweaking a couple of modules.

- Salvage and scavenge stuff from anywhere. Pick magical reagents from the wild, smelt or otherwise unmake items, etc. This is resource extraction and crafting, you've already mentioned it above.

- Build libraries and rune libraries (allows players to travel around the world from a central location) Set up a jump-bridge network in nullsec

- Run a shop Put buy and sell orders on the marketplace

- Scam people in a hundred ways People have stolen the equivalent of tens of thousands of USD from other players through everything from betrayal to spying to ponzi schemes in Eve

- Trap and lock boxes and untrap and unlock them, which gave a lot of opportunities for stunts and antics Leave something juicy in a can in front of a noob station, wait for someone to grab it and fry their ass since you get kill rights on them for 15 minutes.

- Make monsters fight for you so you wouldnt have to do it yourself (I know, technically it's fighting) Okay, this one I give, Eve has no way of swapping the loyalty of an NPC enemy. Buying the allegiance of another player corporation, on the other hand...lots of players act as mercenaries for hire.


I'm forgetting a lot of stuff, not to mention the creative things people would always end up doing with the game mechanics that were clearly not intended in the first place and gave the game that sense of freedom.


Good luck matching that to any game released since.

Direct comparisons with Eve listed in green above. So, except for perhaps the last one UO doesn't win out against Eve outright.

Where's the any key?


Novice Member

Joined: 7/20/12
Posts: 4

7/20/12 7:35:15 PM#70

As much as Eve is really a pretty great game in its own right, claiming that it stands comparison with UO in terms of variations in activities, playstyles, and lifestyles within the game is in fact delusional. There mere fact that you're limited to flying a ship for all interactions in the game constrains everything to a rather narrow layout. Can you build your house and decorate it? Can you change clothes and dye your hair to impersonate another guy or an NPC as you walk around town? Can you polymorph into a monster? Can you tame creatures and sell them to other players? The list goes on. Eve falls short. Don't get me wrong I praise Eve, but come on, don't compare an army knife with a swiss tool.

Only game I've played that had anything on UO when it came to that was SWG, and I'm pretty sure that even SWG doesn't fully match.

I wouldn't count 2nd Life in because as interesting as 2nd Life can be, it's more a total sandbox than a sandbox game. You can do a lot of stuff in it, including and especially building things for you or other players to do if they're not there. But it's pretty clear cut that the "game design" aspect didn't really get a lot of attention. In that sense, 2nd Life is in its own genre.


I also don't understand people who talk about bringing back a game like UO today and having it fail because of griefers and PKs. It's been 15 years since UO came out, it's obvious that if a game like that would be to be remade today, it wouldn't be remade 100% true-to-form, a lot would be improved, adapted and modified. May I remind you that UO was the first game of its kind, that there was no template or rules to follow and that a lot of it was just improvisation and adaptation?

What we should be looking forward is not that someone brings UO back in full purity (I doubt even I would manage to play that for long), but rather that someone brings back the same sort of fully immersive, player-driven, lifestyle-based gameplay. It's definitely doable, but that requires to be inventive and to take a few risks... or for the market to wear out the main formulae and evolve towards that.

While something could happen regarding the first option, I wouldn't expect anything regarding the second for a few more years.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

7/20/12 7:44:16 PM#71
Originally posted by ahumata

As much as Eve is really a pretty great game in its own right, claiming that it stands comparison with UO in terms of variations in activities, playstyles, and lifestyles within the game is in fact delusional.

I'm going to agree with this. Honestly EVE is a massive game in it's own right. I mean it's reputation as a graph paper needed game says a lot about that

There just isn't the variety in EVE of things to do as UO. I mean UO had its limitations, but searching for purple hair dye was a complicated procedure in it's own right. Unless you used eBay.

a yo ho ho


Novice Member

Joined: 7/20/12
Posts: 4

7/20/12 8:21:06 PM#72
Originally posted by Kiljaedenas

Direct comparisons with Eve listed in green above. So, except for perhaps the last one UO doesn't win out against Eve outright.


Nice attempt, but let me correct the shot. Dont get me wrong, I'm not bashing Eve at all costs, Eve is a great game. Nor am I trying to shut you up or anything such, I hope I wont come across that way. But what made UO most special is that all of those game mechanics supported lifestyles, it was not just "stuff you can do", it was a million different ways you can do a million different things (clearly, my numbers here are a slight bit inflated"). That's why while probably being king in its own land, Eve will never fully cut it to us UO players the way that UO did. Eve is market, politics, crime, war. UO was society.

Lets look at the list

Stealth/Anomaly, can work.

Pets/Drones, doesn't  work. Wide variety of pets that you had to go tame in the wild wherever they lived, bring back, train and sell. Bit more complex than a crafting/trade system of drones (and drones in Eve are quite cool).

Fishing/Archaeology, might work

Grow plants/Resource extraction, doesnt work. I would have mentioned mining, skinning, wood chopping and what have you. Plants were a management minigame that could produce goods (decoration) or resources (various uses). There too, it involved getting seeds, making soil, using items and so on to go from an empty pot to a full plant.

Housing/Space stations, doesnt work. Houses you could place, build wall portion by wall portion in many different styles and shapes, wander around in, decorate, sell, fail to refresh and see collapse, burgle, etc. Eve might have something on that when their Walk In Stations system goes anywhere and has a couple of years in existence possibly, but it's not realistic to assume it'll ever go anywhere close to that.

Snoop-Steal/Blow people up, doesn't work. I didn't talk about PK'ing, I talked about stealth mechanics. The entire idea of theft was discretion, stealing stuff and people not even noticing it.

Rare Hunting/Off Mods in Complexes, not sure. Can you do that in Eve without having to fight for one second? I assume not. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Harvesting, it's not so much about how many methods there are, it's about what gameplay is involved in it. Otherwise I could just bring out UO's list of craft skills and blow up any challenger right there. Eve does have PI though and UO didn't have anything like that. Let's call that one quits for the sake of simplicity although you can guess what I think of it all.

Craft, Well, if you wanna go there, Eve might have 9000 different items in it but they're mostly an icon and some info. UO definitely challenges that number without a sweat, and those items were actually movable, placeable or usable in some way (or several). I'd say Eve has to sit that one out. By far. Want a tree? Have a tree. Want a potion? A fire poker? A glass? A carpet? A sword? A container? A grass patch? Some wool? A bunch of stones? Some gold ore? Some bread? A ship model? A curtain? You name it. Wanna put them all in different places and at different heights in your house? Wanna dye them? Go right ahead.

Sailing vs Flying. Nah. That's missing the point. Flying a ship in Eve isn't a choice, it's not an alternate interaction mechanism, it's default. It's as if I put "walking around" as a highlight in any mmo. And even then, it's as if I came up and said that in UO you could ride a dozen different types of mounts (possibly more) each with different properties. In the end it's still riding stuff. Who cares. You did have variety in travel modes though: foot, magic, rides and ships. Apparently ships have become a much bigger portion of gameplay now too but I wouldnt know about that in detail as I've quit 4 years ago.

Social vs Nullsec. Good luck setting up a tavern in Nullsec. Good luck setting up an auction night or doing all the sorts of crazy stuff people used to socially do in UO. No match here.

Imbuing/Mats/Dyes vs Fitting. Fitting is nice but it's glorified gear-swapping. When you can modify by decision what each item you equip in your fitting window does, such as putting stats, passives, actives, whatever (not to mention customize colors, names and you name it just for fun), then Eve might be a contender on that. Not for now!

Salvage vs Nothing. It might be resource extraction, but it's also a lifestyle possibility, and that's a lot of what the original point was about. Not just what game mechanics let you do, but also how you can choose to interact with that world. Again if it were just about resource extraction I'd just have listed the many variations uo has there, not just the different skills but the different ways too. Wanna be a dungeon miner, a stealth miner, a hidden thief-miner, a monster miner... that's just for mining. Dont let me start boring you with "I combine the shit that I find and end up turning dust into gold" stories that are independent of in-game skills and are just about player knowledge and intelligent combinations.

Rune Library vs Jump Bridge Network. That'd be like botting toons in UO to open permanent moongates. Not the same. Rune libraries include a bit more than just linking people up to transport zones, it's more like giving access to every little square tile in the game to any player that comes about and decides to go there. Go to a rune library, look up the destination of your choice, and be right there within an instant. I dont think a jump bridge network covers it.

Shop vs Marketplace. Are you kidding? Running a shop, that means having a physical location that players can visit, restocking your vendors, leasing vending space to other players and all the interactions that go around that. No match there either.

Scams. Eve has its glory when it comes to that and you can definitely pull grandiose heists. UO offered more variety. I once sold a guy a bucket of white dye by making him believe that it dyed whiter than white, just by showing him some dyed clothes that actually naturally came whiter when you dyed them white. He bought it, I bought myself a new house. Eve has the epic scams, UO has the infinite variations in crookery. Let's say that's a tie to me.

Trapboxes vs Canning. What you're describing here is what used to be called noto pking in UO, that is using pvp flag mechanics to your own ends. Very different. Trapboxes were fucked up, as was locking people out of their own house. Sometime a thief snooped you by trying to open a locked trapped box that you'd placed in your backpack. Next thing you knew, you saw a guy (the thief) poisoned to death try to run away and die a few steps away. Other times, people walked around, saw that box on the ground, tried to open it thinking it was a regular dungeon chest, it blew up in their faces. Canning doesnt cover it.

Bard Skills. No worries, you could hire mercenary guilds and players in UO too. Truth is, again it didnt have the same scale and fully integral dimension Eve offers. But as with all fully player-drive, competitive, political environments, it was definitely doable. UO gets that one too.


Big difference, isnt there? Eve is great, but it's both too "large" and at the same time too focused to match UO on the front of freedom and opportunity. Its inherent game design ensures that it never will. I know that Eve offers a lot of non-game mechanics options, but UO did that too. Secret societies, diplomacy, spies, doppelgangers, you name it. Two great games in their own right, each doing its thing.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/10
Posts: 34

7/20/12 10:37:52 PM#73

That was a really lovely post. I've palyed a bit of EVE and i loved it, however i never got to play UO. I now wish that i had :(

Would anyone count Entropia Online as somewhat close to the openworld-ness in UO? I play that quite a bit and i have a great time in it.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

7/20/12 10:38:25 PM#74

It's not just a function of game mechanics, it's that spark of imagination and enthusiasm in the community to go out, find the fun and grow playstyles that were unanticipated by the developers implementing the verbs.

How do I compare a auctioneer in UO to a spy in Eve to an cannoneer in Minecraft or a furry of Second Life?  I don't want to rank the bredth of one community's imagination over another - it's far too subjective.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 60

7/20/12 10:44:35 PM#75



I played UO for years on and off, it was of course my first MMO.

Things that I remember...

If you got killed someone could take all the stuff you were carrying, unless you got to a healer, and then back to your body in a short time.

I know one player who played a con artist.

He played an attractive female, he would stand at some location and cry someone stole all my stuff.  Other players would donate replacements, he would sell them and move on to a new location.  Later he would go to the barber shop and change his appearance.

I remember when your armor was damaged you had to go to another player who was a blacksmith and have it fixed.

I remember baiting giants so that they tossed rocks at me and then using them to build a rock garden around my house.

I remember buying stuff to decorate my house.

I remember training my horse and then running around looking for him after being killed and coming back to my body.

I remember getting together with other players at their houses and sitting around talking.

I remember getting every monster in the area to chase me on my horse, and then running into town followed by dozens of bad guys.

I remember that it felt more like a real place then any one I have played since.


If you shoot a mime, do you have to use a silencer?


Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1530

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

7/20/12 11:05:23 PM#76

The graphics yuk and I hate games that make you hover way over head.  Not sexy.  I'm not playing if I can't be sexy.

Best console game: DD Dark Arisen. Best mmo: GW2. Best game series ever: The Sims.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/03/12
Posts: 497

7/20/12 11:21:00 PM#77
Originally posted by Jemcrystal

The graphics yuk and I hate games that make you hover way over head.  Not sexy.  I'm not playing if I can't be sexy.

Well yeah that's why most of us stopped playing UO. Well I found myself on a pretty empty shard too by fall of 2000. EQ1 was a 3D world and that mattered to gamers.

Just since then the scope of MMORPGs in comparison to UO has narrowed, narrowed, to the point most of the MMORPGs today play like Farmville rather than like the 1st generation of MMORPGs.

a yo ho ho


Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 39

7/21/12 1:54:29 AM#78

When it comes to UO there is no comparison , there is nothing close to it . Is there another game where you could gate an actual lich into your house , trap it with furniture and use it as an anti theft device (and cool decoration) ? :P

A friends favorite mo , was laying down a few items (like a cloak , couple bone armor pieces etc ) in a dungeon , making it look like a player died and didnt get his stuff back yet, stealth near by , and when a poor sob tried to loot and open his trapped backpack it blew up in his face  .... 

There are so many fond memories of that game , I dont think anything will feel like it ever again :)

That and EQ's sense of acomplishment , is what I miss the most . Its all about conformity these days , everyone wearing the same stuff , doing the same stuff  , its boring . 

EQ2 's housing is nice , but not even close to UO . EQ2 's guild halls I do like . 

Overall its the community that changed the most , not the games . There can be only one first love . Us oldtimers chase that feeling all the time , but we can never experience it again I think . But we can hope :)


Elite Member

Joined: 9/05/10
Posts: 1502

Logic, reason and fact do not supersede human nature. Ignorance reigns without justice.

7/21/12 1:57:02 AM#79


I would say true.


I have not properly played Eve to say for certain.


SWG was great, but doesn't stand up against UO when the question at hand is phrased as it is.

When faced with strife or discontent, the true nature of a man is brought forth. It is then when we see the character of the individual. It is then we are able to tell if he is mature enough to grin and bare it, or subject his fellow man to his complaints and woes.


Novice Member

Joined: 7/30/06
Posts: 54

7/21/12 4:13:50 AM#80

Originally posted by Jemcrystal
The graphics yuk and I hate games that make you hover way over head.  Not sexy.  I'm not playing if I can't be sexy.

And honestly, it's stupid posts like this which led to people preferring games like Everquest. EQ was 3D and felt more in the world, while actually massively restricting your activities in it. And games after that followed the EQ model without understanding that it wasn't UO's gameplay that people disliked. At least not completely. It just was the fact that it was an isometric world that didn't have as free of movement. Also, the UI was complete and utter trash.

Honestly, if UO had shipped with EQ style graphics and a UI that was more forgiving, I doubt EQ would ever had been a blip on anyones radar. And what really hurt UO in the end was that EA wasn't willing to let the Origin devs actually try to recreate UO in that 3D world because UO was at least making some money. They didn't to risk alienating that group... and ended up doing so anyway with some really poor decisions later on.

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