Originally posted by Panthien

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Panthien

Sure, I'll facepalm you.

Ofcourse there arent any, the prices of a restaurant are different then the price of a subscription of a game.. obviously.

But the principle remains the same, you pay X to play, you pay extra for the.. extras, you would not have gotten otherwise.

You pay Y for everytime you goto a restaurant to eat, you pay extra for the .. extras, you would not have gotten otherwise.

 

The principal isn't the same at all.

 

In a restaurant, you pay X for what you get. Period. There are no "extras" in a restaurant. There is only what you pay for. If you want a large coke, some fries and some apple pies, you pay for and get a large coke, some fires and some apples pies.

 

You do not have to pay a monthly fee, in any way, to a restaurant. You pay for what you get no matter how many times they ask you if you want to supersize it. Even if you say yes to supersizing, you are paying a one time fee for a supersized meal. No sub.

 

Your analogy sucks hard to be honest.

Its funny you just acknowlage the principle is correct. You order your meal, it comes with potatoes(or fries) some vegetables, a salad and a piece of meat. You dont get a drink, you have to order and pay extra to get that.

Sticking with purely styles here, a game comes with for arguement sake, 2000 different styles and adds 20 new styles average per content update (new dungeon, missions, raid, pvp season) .  (We have ~15 years?? of mmo's to proof this)

Now they hire an additional team to design styles for the cash store, and now they are adding an additional 30-40 styles per week extra.

Using your argument, everything you buy on the planet has a sub + cash shop. 

I go to a grocery store and buy a potato. That is my sub cost. I add a tomato to my cart. That is the cash shop.

It's just a really bad analogy.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Panthien

But ok.. I admit no restaurant comes to mind, alot of clubs do come to mind though, you have to pay a subscription in order to be able to enter, you have to pay extra for drinks.

How about.. the gym, you pay a monthly fee wether you come there or not but , the moment you sit down at the bar for a drink( the extra's) you have to pay extra.

A gym is a better comparison. And they are a ripoff too.

 

A one time fee to enter a club is not a good comparison... because it is a one time fee. You choose to pay the fee to enter. You choose to buy the drink for a one time fee. More like B2P with a cash shop.

Im not talking 1 time entry fee clubs, there are plenty of clubs, expecially high society clubs that require a monthy fee.

Heck, the reason why no restaurant comes to mind is because.. if you REALLY want to get technical.. they are closed clubs, where you dont even GET the meal(nor meals) for free, even though the club offers nothing but a restaurant a bar and a lounch to sit in.

But no matter how you look at it the principle stays the same, you pay for X and pay extra for the extra's you wouldnt have gotten otherwise.

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Panthien

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Panthien

Sure, I'll facepalm you.

Ofcourse there arent any, the prices of a restaurant are different then the price of a subscription of a game.. obviously.

But the principle remains the same, you pay X to play, you pay extra for the.. extras, you would not have gotten otherwise.

You pay Y for everytime you goto a restaurant to eat, you pay extra for the .. extras, you would not have gotten otherwise.

 

The principal isn't the same at all.

 

In a restaurant, you pay X for what you get. Period. There are no "extras" in a restaurant. There is only what you pay for. If you want a large coke, some fries and some apple pies, you pay for and get a large coke, some fires and some apples pies.

 

You do not have to pay a monthly fee, in any way, to a restaurant. You pay for what you get no matter how many times they ask you if you want to supersize it. Even if you say yes to supersizing, you are paying a one time fee for a supersized meal. No sub.

 

Your analogy sucks hard to be honest.

Its funny you just acknowlage the principle is correct. You order your meal, it comes with potatoes(or fries) some vegetables, a salad and a piece of meat. You dont get a drink, you have to order and pay extra to get that.

Sticking with purely styles here, a game comes with for arguement sake, 2000 different styles and adds 20 new styles average per content update (new dungeon, missions, raid, pvp season) .  (We have ~15 years?? of mmo's to proof this)

Now they hire an additional team to design styles for the cash store, and now they are adding an additional 30-40 styles per week extra.

Using your argument, everything you buy on the planet has a sub + cash shop. 

 

I go to a grocery store and buy a potato. That is my sub cost. I add a tomato to my cart. That is the cash shop.

 

It's just a really bad analogy.

Bad analogy or not, you do have a funny way of saying I am right.

Originally posted by Maitrader

So many haters bitch and moan about the cash shop in TSW.... the shop ONLY sells clothing, pets, outfits, titles.... all cosmetic shit that gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE in the game ... there are ingame vendors who sell shitloads of clothing... theres a pet vendor.... so you cannot buy a title with pax..... who the fuck cares? unbelieveable that people say that the cash shop in TSW is ridiculous and a disgrace.. if you think its a disgrace that FC offers vanity items to those who can afford it, then move along, or get a better paying job that will allow you to be vain as well.

Originally posted by cronius77

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to even though you are paying a monthly sub.

because its the new trend as players buy it and they can get away with it. Many years ago when mmorpgs released everyone got pissed about the entire 15 bucks a month. Heck DAOC started at 12.95 a month and didnt raise up for a couple of years. This is a trend that players whom use the cash shops started and continue to feed it. I personally dont use the cash shop in the game nor does it bother me its there . But OP obviously by his language and douchebagginess cant respect anyone who has an opinion other then himself.

Originally posted by Ryowulf

New Trend? Has another mmo asked for a box price and monthly sub, while having a cash shop?

In ftp games that I am aware of, if you sub they give you X amount of their coin.

I do think monthly costs will need to go up. Box prices have. Maybe adding a cash shop is an attempt to avoid asking for an $18 sub. Or maybe its just a money grab.

to the OP

wow has such a blatantly greedy business model, why, because they still can afford to, they have 10 million blindly loyal subscribers that have poured years in to the game, they will literally accept anything Blizzard asks of them, they are to moronic to notice they are being ripped off.

most gamers understand that it's about the principle behind it, NOT about if you can afford the stupid cashshop.

Box price + monthly fee + cash shop is a combination many gamers do not accept on principle, why, simple, 

if you let them get away with it, it will become the norm, gamers need to let them know i's not ok to be so blatantly greedy.

specially if your game is shitty.....cough wow, tera, tsw cough.

some years ago sure gamers didn't know better so wow got away with it, (perfect timing) now it's 2012 and gamers are smarter.

what most gamers look for is basically this:

- if you have a standard non discounted box price, your game should be B2P with no monthly sub and a balanced cash shop, expansions should have a box price.

- if you have a monthly sub, the game should be cheap below 10 euros or totally free to download with no cash shop at all expansions should be either free or very low cost. (otherwise why the fuck do we pay a sub every month) in this scenario the sub cost could be even higher than 15 dollars a month, again don't be blatantly greedy keep it fair somewhere between 15-20 dollars a month.

- if you don't have a sub or box price to speak of, we expect the game quality to be on par with the AAA titles that do, and have a balanced cash shop. Expansions should be free, just try to keep your cash shop balanced, show us your integrity we will show you our cash.

Postdata:

some will argue that the sub cost is to pay for server costs and not for expansions, wrong !

in the 90's sure that was the case, now a days not so much it costs them practically a dime a year figuratively speaking, to run those servers so much so that server costs it's only a small foot note on the yearly balance sheets.

the main issue gamers face with cash shop games, is that most companies break the game to the point it is impossible to play it without buying some shit from the cash shop in order to progress in  the game.

monthly sub games need to understand that in this age, if you choose to pay a sub it's because you do NOT wish to see a cash shop ever ever, I'd rather they up the sub fee 1 or 2 dollars instead, to do this you need to have a very good game something that will rival, wow, gw2 or eve as those are in my opinion the current market leaders.

Originally posted by Panthien

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Panthien

But ok.. I admit no restaurant comes to mind, alot of clubs do come to mind though, you have to pay a subscription in order to be able to enter, you have to pay extra for drinks.

How about.. the gym, you pay a monthly fee wether you come there or not but , the moment you sit down at the bar for a drink( the extra's) you have to pay extra.

A gym is a better comparison. And they are a ripoff too.

 

A one time fee to enter a club is not a good comparison... because it is a one time fee. You choose to pay the fee to enter. You choose to buy the drink for a one time fee. More like B2P with a cash shop.

Im not talking 1 time entry fee clubs, there are plenty of clubs, expecially high society clubs that require a monthy fee.

Heck, the reason why no restaurant comes to mind is because.. if you REALLY want to get technical.. they are closed clubs, where you dont even GET the meal(nor meals) for free, even though the club offers nothing but a restaurant a bar and a lounch to sit in.

But no matter how you look at it the principle stays the same, you pay for X and pay extra for the extra's you wouldnt have gotten otherwise.

If you want to compare the value you get from paying a monthly fee to a club where they still sell drinks, etc, I am ok with that. Clubs like that tend to charge way too much in my opinion and have multiple ways to milk you out of your money (sub + shop).

And there are a lot of people that feel like the experience is worth it. But you have to also understand that there are a lot of people that don't feel like the expereince is worth it. Some people may even not go to the club and may choose another club because they prefer the payment method of another club.

Originally posted by laserit

Originally posted by colddog04

Originally posted by Panthien

But ok.. I admit no restaurant comes to mind, alot of clubs do come to mind though, you have to pay a subscription in order to be able to enter, you have to pay extra for drinks.

How about.. the gym, you pay a monthly fee wether you come there or not but , the moment you sit down at the bar for a drink( the extra's) you have to pay extra.

A gym is a better comparison. And they are a ripoff too.

 

A one time fee to enter a club is not a good comparison... because it is a one time fee. You choose to pay the fee to enter. You choose to buy the drink for a one time fee.

 The Gym is a better analogy. But I would equate it as paying your sub for your membership and then having to pay extra to use the bench press or the shower.

The only positive to a cash shop is for the developer.

I dont see getting a smile from your newly purchased pixel pant's... as a positive

Not really, charging extra for the becnh press or shower use would like paying for gameplay affecting elements.

it would be more like charging you extra for swaters, gloves, and other fluff stuff you don't need to get from them.  Which a lot of gyms do.

If the gym has a "bar" i bet you have to pay for the protein shake or the nutritional bar, too.

And as with a cosmetic only cash shop, the gym has an additional venue for profit, without making it so that the clients HAVE to us it.

Kuppa:  that's your particular opinion, and as i stated you have to understand that for a whole ot of other people the sub IS worth it, and the Cash shop is either worth it, non important or even seeked after.

This idea that all products should follow the exact same model for revenue is dumb, different companies have different models, people can choose.  What's the problem?

here is an analogy for you.

You pay a "woman of the night" for an intimate encounter. Thats your box price (pun not intended)

You now pay a doctor monthly for your STD medication. Thats your subsciption.

You buy alot of "Self Help"  XXX video's because no healthy woman will sleep with you anymore. Thats the cash shop

Yes people can spend their cash on anything they please.

When I look at the cash shop thing as a whole, it just rubs me the wrong way.It's just cash being taken out of the economy for dumb lame crap with zero value, there is no value added.

I wish people would just spend that cash buying a coffee or something from a small business in their community. Corporations are sucking up way to much, which goes into fewer and fewer pocket's and our economies and communities are suffering as a result.

And it's only getting worse.

Originally posted by eyelolled

here is an analogy for you.

You pay a "woman of the night" for an intimate encounter. Thats your box price (pun not intended)

You now pay a doctor monthly for your STD medication. Thats your subsciption.

You buy alot of "Self Help"  XXX video's because no healthy woman will sleep with you anymore. Thats the cash shop

Bad analogy since healthy women don't have a choice on whether or not they sleep with me. 

Originally posted by laserit

Yes people can spend their cash on anything they please.

When I look at the cash shop thing as a whole, it just rubs me the wrong way.It's just cash being taken out of the economy for dumb lame crap with zero value, there is no value added.

I wish people would just spend that cash buying a coffee or something from a small business in their community. Corporations are sucking up way to much, which goes into fewer and fewer pocket's and our economies and communities are suffering as a result.

And it's only getting worse.

the same could be said, for someone that doesn't game, about gaming in general.  theres no value, just wasted money taken out of the economy 8actually getting into the economy, cause you know... it pays taxes, salaries, services, etc, etc, it's reinvested and all that, but hell, let's keep it on the same level of close minded ideas) I bet that people would want us all to spend our gaming money in coffee too, for small bussines in our communities.  Not in games or MMOs in particular.

And it's only getting worse.  Imaging the horror, some people pay to go to the MOVIES!

The same "value" that any game you might spend money on, or on movies, or whatever that doesn't fit you... little statemtn, falls in the same cathegory.  For people willing to buy form the cash shop, those items have that value.  just lik some game you like might have for you.

In reality? both are just wasted money for someone else.

u knw i never bought a single shit frm WoW cash shop, i hav tons of pets and mounts frm in game vendors. and add the dngn\raid pets\mounts to that number, huge amnt of things to collect. if they were selling cash shop only epic gears then i wud troll the shit out of them. but atm i honestly don't think they are doin anything wrong trying to make some extra cash out of their game. i wud do the exact same thing in their place, so wud anyone who is opposing this idea in this thread.

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

 I would prefer to have $15 and be done with all content given to us. However I also understand the need for the cash shop for more vanity items. I am ok with cash shops as long as they are not P2W. The industry as a whole is going in this direction, you guys need to realize this and move on to more important subjects... like new IPs instead of copy paste tactics.

Originally posted by eyelolled

here is an analogy for you.

You pay a "woman of the night" for an intimate encounter. Thats your box price (pun not intended)

You now pay a doctor monthly for your STD medication. Thats your subsciption.

You buy alot of "Self Help"  XXX video's because no healthy woman will sleep with you anymore. Thats the cash shop

 

 

wow.  now i understand what people mean by "buying a mount" in the cash shop... to think, all this time...

Originally posted by Gargola

Originally posted by laserit

Yes people can spend their cash on anything they please.

When I look at the cash shop thing as a whole, it just rubs me the wrong way.It's just cash being taken out of the economy for dumb lame crap with zero value, there is no value added.

I wish people would just spend that cash buying a coffee or something from a small business in their community. Corporations are sucking up way to much, which goes into fewer and fewer pocket's and our economies and communities are suffering as a result.

And it's only getting worse.

the same could be said, for someone that doesn't game, about gaming in general.  theres no value, just wasted money taken out of the economy 8actually getting into the economy, cause you know... it pays taxes, salaries, services, etc, etc, it's reinvested and all that, but hell, let's keep it on the same level of close minded ideas) I bet that people would want us all to spend our gaming money in coffee too, for small bussines in our communities.  Not in games or MMOs in particular.

 

And it's only getting worse.  Imaging the horror, some people pay to go to the MOVIES!

 

The same "value" that any game you might spend money on, or on movies, or whatever that doesn't fit you... little statemtn, falls in the same cathegory.  For people willing to buy form the cash shop, those items have that value.  just lik some game you like might have for you.

In reality? both are just wasted money for someone else.

I dont equate Cash Shops with movies and game production.

Movies and game production employs a hell of alot of people for the amount of cash you spend. Cash shops are almost completelty the opposite in that regard.

You might not equate them, but then you shouldn't consider people doing some crafts, people selling the paper, shinning shoes and a LOT other stuff either.

joust cause you personally decide to think something it doesn't mean that things work like this.  Creation of art assets in games is expensive, it's part of the business, and there's a whole lot of people that works exclusively in doing so.

the whole "employ a lot of people" go against your idea of supporting small business, even.

FC has 300 or so people working in TSW, they all are employed based on the revenue model and projections, and those include the additional revenue form the additional items in the cash shop.  thei'r art department, and other departments that need to work with this are adjusted to this model, so the whole thing (box price, sub, any additional revenue from the cash shop) is adjusted according to that.

The money you spent on any game is a waste, for people that doesn't game, but i'm sure most of them actually know it is all part of the economy, and it actually helps it directly and indirectly.  Some won't, and will only "see" that it has no value, as they don't equate making games to any sort of "real" business.

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

This is my view. If you are going to be charging a monthly subscription fee, it is expected that you are paying for them to develop new content that is available to everyone. Not using that developer time to create items to put on a cash shop.

I find developers who double dip from subscriptions and cash shops to be greedy and underhanded. I dont care which model they use - cash shops or subscriptions, but pick one and stop being greedy.

I find that these types of developers hold off the best looking items to go on the shop, rather than making them available through regular gameplay. Like in EQ2, all the fantastic looking armor is all on the cash shop. The raid gear looks like trash.

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

This is my view. If you are going to be charging a monthly subscription fee, it is expected that you are paying for them to develop new content that is available to everyone. Not using that developer time to create items to put on a cash shop.

I find developers who double dip from subscriptions and cash shops to be greedy and underhanded. I dont care which model they use - cash shops or subscriptions, but pick one and stop being greedy.

I find that these types of developers hold off the best looking items to go on the shop, rather than making them available through regular gameplay. Like in EQ2, all the fantastic looking armor is all on the cash shop. The raid gear looks like trash.

or they could be contemplating the expected revenue from the cash shop and developing based on that extra money, for that venue... and new regular content (which they have) being planned and developed with the projections and revenue form the sub.

I imagine you also want the money you pay for your car (if you buy a basic moel) not to be used to make extras... which cost... extra.

different people has different opinions.  Some people won't accept cash shops no matter what, others do.  others even want more, in the case of FC model.  For me it's irrelevant, i don't plan to put any money in it, it doesn't get in the way and i would spend any FC points i get with my regular purchase/subscription, there.  Simple.  i don't get "double dipped" and if others willingly buy form it, it's not a problem, that's their money and their decision.

Again, thinking that all games should follow a single model is silly, different games and models should exist, as there are different buyers, and the ones that actually work will keep on working.  This is not a one size fits all, nor should it be, like games themselves.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Wow, some of you should seriously be forced to enroll in AA (Analogies Anonymous).

Lol they are pretty bad 

I actually don't mind spending money in the CS for things that I want.  However this game is like FE for me.  There is nothing in the CS I want. 

I wouldn't mind getting a pet, but don't like the look/breed of those dogs, the cats are too small (give me a panther and I'd take it) and the birds look just... odd.

Don't really like the clothing look either.  I'll keep my red leather jacket.

Originally posted by Gargola

Originally posted by evilastro

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

This is my view. If you are going to be charging a monthly subscription fee, it is expected that you are paying for them to develop new content that is available to everyone. Not using that developer time to create items to put on a cash shop.

I find developers who double dip from subscriptions and cash shops to be greedy and underhanded. I dont care which model they use - cash shops or subscriptions, but pick one and stop being greedy.

I find that these types of developers hold off the best looking items to go on the shop, rather than making them available through regular gameplay. Like in EQ2, all the fantastic looking armor is all on the cash shop. The raid gear looks like trash.

or they could be contemplating the expected revenue from the cash shop and developing based on that extra money, for that venue... and new regular content (which they have) being planned and developed with the projections and revenue form the sub.

 

I imagine you also want the money you pay for your car (if you buy a basic moel) not to be used to make extras... which cost... extra.

 

different people has different opinions.  Some people won't accept cash shops no matter what, others do.  others even want more, in the case of FC model.  For me it's irrelevant, i don't plan to put any money in it, it doesn't get in the way and i would spend any FC points i get with my regular purchase/subscription, there.  Simple.  i don't get "double dipped" and if others willingly buy form it, it's not a problem, that's their money and their decision.

 

Again, thinking that all games should follow a single model is silly, different games and models should exist, as there are different buyers, and the ones that actually work will keep on working.  This is not a one size fits all, nor should it be, like games themselves.

Your car analogy is stupid.

When I buy a car, I know which extras I am purchasing and can make an informed decision. As a consumer of a MMO you cannot decide how much developer time is spent on cash shop items and how much is spent on monthly content. You have no way of knowing if they are withholding items that should have been paid for with your subscription for use in the cash shop.

I have no issues with cash shops, I just dont like them in subscription games as I feel they deliberately hold back items to use for the cash shop which should be included in the game as part of a subscription. Subscriptions rake in a lot of money based on the promise of content updates and I personally think it is immoral for developers to then expect customers to pay extra.

But yes, its a personal decision and the best way is to speak with your wallet. As such I refuse to play any game that double dips. The developers who do this have historically proven to be greedy and immoral, and I feel no need to pander to their money grabbing strategies.