Who gives a shit? The deck outfits are better than anything in the store, so far not a single outfit looks better than the grifter. [mod edit]

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Ryowulf

New Trend? Has another mmo asked for a box price and monthly sub, while having a cash shop?

In ftp games that I am aware of, if you sub they give you X amount of their coin.

I do think monthly costs will need to go up. Box prices have. Maybe adding a cash shop is an attempt to avoid asking for an $18 sub. Or maybe its just a money grab.

Tera, Rift, WoW... umm pretty much most all monthly sub games still have cash shops in some shape or form.. well rift isn't really a cash shop per say but you got the mounts you can buy for real money and such so I say it pretty much is

rift and wow did not release with a cash shop.

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by Pynda

The question I have is whether the current cash shop is just to get people used to the idea. And that the pay to win items are going to be slowly introduced sometime later.

This is of course a valid concern. CCP tried this with the monocle debacle in EVE and that didn't end very well. Hopefully other devs have learned from them.

I'm pretty sure my cash shop bought aviation shades and shirt&tie give me a definite advantage over other players that don't use the cash shop - advantage in looking cool!

 

The monacle thing was just that it cost so damn much. I forget the number but it was upwards of $50 dollars in plex (an in game item that when used, adds a month to your sub.) At the same time as the item shop roll-out, an internal ccp newsletter was leaked that A. (ENRAGED PLAYER VERSION) Proved ccp was trying to figure out how to add items that affected game-play to the cash shop B. (CCP VERSION) contained an article about how you'd add non-fluff stuff to the cash shop, written as a devil's advocate deal so they could fully look at every side of it.

The monacles are still super expensive, but there have been some great threads by the monacled in the forums that makes it totally worth it.

@Istvaan. So? Whether their cash shops were in at release or not effects what, exactly?

It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.

Originally posted by Istavaan

It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.

Yes, you mean like how Anet forces you to buy GW1 to get HOM rewards and people accept it?

Originally posted by sketocafe

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by Pynda

The question I have is whether the current cash shop is just to get people used to the idea. And that the pay to win items are going to be slowly introduced sometime later.

This is of course a valid concern. CCP tried this with the monocle debacle in EVE and that didn't end very well. Hopefully other devs have learned from them.

I'm pretty sure my cash shop bought aviation shades and shirt&tie give me a definite advantage over other players that don't use the cash shop - advantage in looking cool!

 

The monacle thing was just that it cost so damn much. I forget the number but it was upwards of $50 dollars in plex (an in game item that when used, adds a month to your sub.) At the same time as the item shop roll-out, an internal ccp newsletter was leaked that A. (ENRAGED PLAYER VERSION) Proved ccp was trying to figure out how to add items that affected game-play to the cash shop B. (CCP VERSION) contained an article about how you'd add non-fluff stuff to the cash shop, written as a devil's advocate deal so they could fully look at every side of it.

 

The monacles are still super expensive, but there have been some great threads by the monacled in the forums that makes it totally worth it.

 

@Istvaan. So? Whether their cash shops were in at release or not effects what, exactly?

well it obviously effects development time and takes up resources that you are paying for with your 15 bucks a month.

Originally posted by Istavaan

It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.

+ 1

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

Originally posted by Istavaan

It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.

Yes, you mean like how Anet forces you to buy GW1 to get HOM rewards and people accept it?

Well i never played guild wars 1 so really their jedi mind trick didn't work on me.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.

See what I did there?

In that case why have a sub at all?

Any way you slice it, they are double-dipping their profits. If people are fine w/ it, than that's their choice. However, there isn't any real justification for having both. Post-WoW, the industry has shown that cash shops are actually better for generating revenue anyhow.

Hell, I don't see why they couldn't just do the Turbine model tbh. Give people a choice, have an unrestricted game for the sub, or free but limit most of the outfits to the cash shop. Currently they are doing the worst of both.

They're triple-dipping because it's a new, exciting game and they can.

In time, they will ditch either the box price, sub price or both.

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

Originally posted by Istavaan

It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.

Yes, you mean like how Anet forces you to buy GW1 to get HOM rewards and people accept it?

Well i never played guild wars 1 so really their jedi mind trick didn't work on me.

Great, it doesn't work on me either, and i hate cash shops in most forms. Mostly in P2P games, a good amount in B2P games, and F2P, well, it depends if it's P2W and other factors.

Serously people, devs trying to get more money? Congrats, welcome to the real world.

Originally posted by Istavaan

It is funny how players have been slowly conditioned into accepting a cash shop in a sub based game, if this happened 5 years ago players would be outside the development studio with pitch forks and torches. ah humanity how easily you are manipulated.

This DID happen 5 years ago.  I never had a pitch fork.  

I honestly couldn't give the slightest shit about a cash shop that i neither use nor need to use.   If the game is worth $15 a month, I'll pay it.  If it's not, i'll stop and move on to a game that is.  

Seriously.. if you're like me and you think that having a colourful psychedelic t-shirt for your character that does absolutely nothing other than look different is NOT worth paying $5 of real money for.. well... wtf do you care if someone else is able to buy themselves one?  They're helping to support YOUR game's development without taking anything from you.  Live and let live.   

Honestly, I don't want my sub to go towards developing 15 versions of cosmetic pet kittens (that's what the TSW store seems to be selling - there are multiple types of dogs too!)  I seriously don't.  But if people really like having cosmetic pet kittens and are willing to pay for that separately - more power to them.   Actually, I'd love to have a pet leet (leet = cute mob from AO)...but if i think about it, given that only a small percentage of the TSW population even know what a leet is, it's probably NOT a good thing to invest development resources into.  Hence, I'd be willing to pay a few bucks extra to get one.

The whole "OMG, i'm insulted by the game having a cash show that i never need to use!" is just stupid.   Also, in terms of "i want to demonstrate my refusal to support the model" - as someone that works in marketing, I'll point out that the best way to "demonstrate your refusal" is to actually play the game and buy nothing in the store - if 100% of the people who don't play the game buy nothing in the store, FC doesn't give a shit, whereas if 100% of the people who DO play the game buy nothing, the store gets shut down.   But i'm guessing that people don't actually want to demonstrate anything.  I'm guessing people just want to have more stuff free.  Well, we all do.  Given the choice between having to pay for things and having those same exact things for free, I'd take things for free.   Unfortunately that's not how the world works.

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

They could have, but.. in general cash shops offer styles and items that would not have entered a game otherwise. Funny enough you even acknowlage that fact.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Bhorzo

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Sorrow

Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.

 .

Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.

 

 

Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.

 

Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.

 

Non MMO's have like what, 20, 30, maybe 50 hours of content.  MMORPG's have anywhere from 100 to perhaps 500 hours of content, so then by your logic in order to pay for their extraordinary development costs a MMORPG should have a box price of like, $250.00?

Since no one will pay that, they expect to recoop some of the development costs (which have jumped from about 10M per title to over 300M if some reports are to be trusted) rewarding those who were willing to risk the investment in the project in the first place.

Another big use of sub fees is to fund not only development of new features in the current game, but also fund the development of the companies future titles, so they don't have to turn to outside investors for funding.  CCP is funding two titles, WOD and DUST 514 with the revenues generated from EVE (much to my displeasure, but what can you do?)

It was never about the cost to maintain the servers, that's always a small figure in the overall scheme of things.

And while its true that there is more outsourcing most western MMORPG's seem to keep a much larger portion of their development onshore as opposed to outsourcing it overseas.

And speaking of outsourcing, you have any idea what that really costs?  My firm pays an average of $42.00 an hour for contract offshore resources (and we have the economic muscle to really squeeze the prices down from our vendors) which is a good deal compared to the average costs of roughly $87.00 per hour for onshore vendors or employees.

But either way, the bills add up quick especially when you have a large team, TESO seems to have over 250 people working on it, SWTOR and even the recently failed 38 Studios had more on the payroll.

And like I said, seems like most western MMO's use onshore resources more often than not.

Finally, we need to talk about profit.  These games are not labors of love, they are profit making entities and the more profit, the better for the people who sponsor them.  They don't care if you think what they make is obscene, they take the risks by investing 100M or so, there's no issue reaping the rewards of their successes, as well as their failures.

Feel free to develop your own 'charity' MMORPG. 

 

 

Finally, someone who "gets" it !

Most people on these forums either don't have the foggiest clue about the production cost and maintenance of software products, or else they are willfully ignoring it.

If MMO developers are "gouging" the players with excessive prices, then they must ALL be making large profits, not so ? Yet, other than Activision Blizzard, they don't report stellar financial results every year. Where are they hiding these massive profits ?

Most people on these forums are in agreement that every MMO launch since WoW has been a resounding failure. Everyone gleefully points out that EA must have taken a large financial hit on SW:TOR.

Yet, when it comes around to paying for boxes or monthly subs, these same companies are accused of being greedy money-grabbing suits who are raking in massive profits by exploiting poor gamers. "They don't need to charge that much".

Now, a company can't be producing games that are huge financial failures AND be making massive profits. So which is it ?

Originally posted by Istavaan

Originally posted by Aerowyn

Originally posted by Ryowulf

New Trend? Has another mmo asked for a box price and monthly sub, while having a cash shop?

In ftp games that I am aware of, if you sub they give you X amount of their coin.

I do think monthly costs will need to go up. Box prices have. Maybe adding a cash shop is an attempt to avoid asking for an $18 sub. Or maybe its just a money grab.

Tera, Rift, WoW... umm pretty much most all monthly sub games still have cash shops in some shape or form.. well rift isn't really a cash shop per say but you got the mounts you can buy for real money and such so I say it pretty much is

rift and wow did not release with a cash shop.

No, they didn't, but that wasn't what the quoted poster said either.  He/she didn't ask "has another mmo launched with a box price and monthly sub?"  

Originally posted by Panthien

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

They could have, but.. in general cash shops offer styles and items that would not have entered a game otherwise. Funny enough you even acknowlage that fact.

That's complete BS.  No game company can afford to release a MMO and not continue to develop new styles of appearance for people to wear.  TSW's cash shop gives Funcom a means of letting them make extra money on top of the sub from work they would have had to do anyways to remain competative in the market place.

It would be like a fast food joint charging you for ketchup and than saying they are only doing it because otherwise they couldn't provide it at all.  

Originally posted by udon

Originally posted by Panthien

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

They could have, but.. in general cash shops offer styles and items that would not have entered a game otherwise. Funny enough you even acknowlage that fact.

That's complete BS.  No game company can afford to release a MMO and not continue to develop new styles of appearance for people to wear.  TSW's cash shop gives Funcom a means of letting them make extra money on top of the sub from work they would have had to do anyways to remain competative in the market place.

It would be like a fast food joint charging you for ketchup and than saying they are only doing it because otherwise they couldn't provide it at all.  

 

Its 100% true, I never said they dont add new styles, heck with new pvp seasons, new dungeons and raids ussually comes a variaty of styles, the cash shops add additional ones.

Nice try though.

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

For me it's just the principle of the whole matter and was one of the reasons I put off for awhile on trying the game. A monhlty sub of 15 dollars should be more than enough money for funcom to support and grow the game. Adding a cash shop along with a lifetime sub just doesn't look good . It basically is saying "We are a company that is trying to squeeze as much money from the customer as we can get away with." 

Originally posted by Sorrow

Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.

 

Sorry but cash shops in a subscription supported game = one thing and one thing only.. a disqusting predatory level of greed that should never be condoned.

 

Luckily for TSW the game will be F2P within 6 months and the all the lifetimes will be getting free cashshop money each month.

I agree and I second this statement.

if people want to buy things in the cash shop and give money to funcom which may lead to more development for the game i'm playing, then i'm all for it.