Look at all the clothes you can buy from the in-game vendor:

http://dulfy.net/2012/07/04/tsw-womans-fashion-at-london/

(That's only for women!)

And look at all the clothing rewards you get from just playing the game:

http://dulfy.net/2012/07/06/tsw-list-of-quests-with-clothing-rewards/

Originally posted by Ryowulf

New Trend? Has another mmo asked for a box price and monthly sub, while having a cash shop?

In ftp games that I am aware of, if you sub they give you X amount of their coin.

I do think monthly costs will need to go up. Box prices have. Maybe adding a cash shop is an attempt to avoid asking for an $18 sub. Or maybe its just a money grab.

Maybe not yet, but any sub fee game will have a cash shop in the future.

Why? Because they can and because it means more money

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by Maitrader

So many haters bitch and moan about the cash shop in TSW.... the shop ONLY sells clothing, pets, outfits, titles.... all cosmetic shit that gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE in the game ... there are ingame vendors who sell shitloads of clothing... theres a pet vendor.... so you cannot buy a title with pax..... who the fuck cares? unbelieveable that people say that the cash shop in TSW is ridiculous and a disgrace.. if you think its a disgrace that FC offers vanity items to those who can afford it, then move along, or get a better paying job that will allow you to be vain as well.

haha... It is outrageous that they're offering a cash shop when the game has a monthly fee... It would be great to have something like in game shop and you could get all those items you want for some rare currency which is obtainable only trough game...

I don't get it why do people support companies efforts to milk you dry. Just because the game is good enough for you to play it is enough to take on this really greedy move? We already know that the subscription is a robbery and outdated model because they can't make new content with the same pace as they're getting profit from subs (and you can't blame the costs of the servers or bandwith because nowadays that's really just a minor, and cheap, issue). So why the hell would someone support this model is just out of this world for me.

Why do people spend money on anything extra in life? it is not just about video games. people have disposable income and they want to spend it.

Do i go around stressing my brain everytime i see someone wearing a gold plated rolex? after all my cheap casio watch can also tell time in same effecient manner.. but hey that guy got money to burn so good for him.

People need to stop stressing about how others choose to spend their money.

How do you even access the cash shop? I was trying to check out the items they sell but I cant seem to find it on the website. 

Originally posted by sr7olsniper

How do you even access the cash shop? I was trying to check out the items they sell but I cant seem to find it on the website. 

Go in-game. Click the menu button on the top left corner. Click cash shop. Voila!

---

Originally posted by sr7olsniper
How do you even access the cash shop? I was trying to check out the items they sell but I cant seem to find it on the website. 

---

Edit: Beaten!

I wouldnt even want anything in the cash shop for free let alone pay for it lol so the cash shop dont really bother me too much..

Saying that I think cash shops are stupid evil things that shuold be banned from all computer games.. f2p and cash shops have helped destroy the MMO industry.. of course wow has helped as well..

Originally posted by mehoron

Originally posted by DaezAster

Originally posted by mehoron

Originally posted by DaezAster

I'm not against a cash shop but tsw did keep a lot out for it. During beta I was able to by gloves and shades in game but those were removed and are now only in the cash shop. Besides the deck clothing the only clothing you can buy is the bland stuff available when you create your character. I am still rocking the same stuff from cc under my mercenary set which I have just settled to stick with do to lack of options. With armor being removed from the game which usually keeps your character evolving over the course of a game the clothing options are more important and less available than even some ftp games I've played. 

Gloves are still in the game, as are sunglasses. I have them on my player right now....so this is kinda false. There's TONS of clothing and several clothing vendors, so no....you're not just stuck with the stuff your character has.....

 

Have you never gone to london?!

 

Edit:

There are 9 slots on your character for gear that has stats. So I dunno where that come from either.

yes I did but didn't see gloves just the stuff that was available from cc. I could be wrong though where did you find the gloves and shades?At the clothing store?

 

Talismans don't change your apearance.

 

Yes there are 7 clothing vendors per sex in the store in London. Each one sells different stuff depending on their title. "Business Attire" is suits and stuff "Modern Fasion" has the slim shades on it, the "Street Wear" dude or w/e has gloves. Expedition Fasion guy has lots of crazy expensive and nice coats and stuff on him, export merchant has long coats and biker jackets.

Thanks for the info, in fact, I've never been to London.  I started out in NY and actually have never explored that city outside of the base, much less thought of randomly going to London.  I'll have to do some exploring tonight to check it out.

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by Maitrader

So many haters bitch and moan about the cash shop in TSW.... the shop ONLY sells clothing, pets, outfits, titles.... all cosmetic shit that gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE in the game ... there are ingame vendors who sell shitloads of clothing... theres a pet vendor.... so you cannot buy a title with pax..... who the fuck cares? unbelieveable that people say that the cash shop in TSW is ridiculous and a disgrace.. if you think its a disgrace that FC offers vanity items to those who can afford it, then move along, or get a better paying job that will allow you to be vain as well.

haha... It is outrageous that they're offering a cash shop when the game has a monthly fee... It would be great to have something like in game shop and you could get all those items you want for some rare currency which is obtainable only trough game...

I don't get it why do people support companies efforts to milk you dry. Just because the game is good enough for you to play it is enough to take on this really greedy move? We already know that the subscription is a robbery and outdated model because they can't make new content with the same pace as they're getting profit from subs (and you can't blame the costs of the servers or bandwith because nowadays that's really just a minor, and cheap, issue). So why the hell would someone support this model is just out of this world for me.

Why do people spend money on anything extra in life? it is not just about video games. people have disposable income and they want to spend it.

Do i go around stressing my brain everytime i see someone wearing a gold plated rolex? after all my cheap casio watch can also tell time in same effecient manner.. but hey that guy got money to burn so good for him.

People need to stop stressing about how others choose to spend their money.

Well I for one played mmorpg's so I can rest from my usual work / bills / rl issues stuff.

To turn off and separate from those things for an hour, two or in those rare cases for bit more if I have time.

Mmorpg's used to bring immersion on a level and in a way no book or movie could.

Cash Shop bring direct connection with a real world thus destroying this immersion and this reason I played them.

I have nothing against people spending their money,  problem is I don't have OPTION to play in a enviroment with cash shop.

I would be willing to pay 3-5$ bucks / month MORE (higher sub) for an access to separate no cash shop server.

Obviously that would have to mean in TSW that those server would have to have severed ties with other servers that are linked though 'one server technology' - that's an issue for whole other discussion.

TSW is designed from group up with CS in mind.

Since that is not offered then that why I am not happy and just not playing mmorpg's and just play single player games / reading books for my 'calm' leisure time.

It is simply that certain service that people were using is not avabile anymore and that's why they are not content.

Sure many people don't understand that since for them this reasoning is totally alien and don't care about stuff I've written above.  Still I am not judging them just offering you one of possible explanations. (there are other diffrent explanations and reasons why some people don't like CS as well, this post is too long already though).

Originally posted by Sorrow

Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.

 .

Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.

Welcome to the gaming industry :D

You are so lucky to get a job here !

Every year, we will reduce your salary,

BUT we'll expect you to produce better quality work (it's 2012, so no excuse for bugs in your code will be accepted)

AND in ever increasing volume (no excuse for a game to launch without masses of content all the way to endgame).

The gaming industry is a magical place. It's the only branch of industry where shareholders will not demand that your annual profits increase so that they get better dividends. Investors will be happy to lend you vast sums of money at great risk. If your game tanks and you cannot pay back the loan, they'll shrug and say: "Aww shucks, better luck next time. We didn't really need that $70M anyway. By the way, how much do you need for the next project ?" 

Games are made by people, not machines. Labour cost is the major expense for any software company. Hardware and bandwidth for running an MMO is a relatively small part of the expense, always was.

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Sorrow

Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.

 .

Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.

 

Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.

Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.

Originally posted by Sorrow

 

 

Sorry but cash shops in a subscription supported game = one thing and one thing only.. a disqusting predatory level of greed that should never be condoned.

 

Luckily for TSW the game will be F2P within 6 months and the all the lifetimes will be getting free cashshop money each month.

Ehm, why?

The man hours that are assigned to the shop-servicse are paid by the income from the cash shop. The exclusive shop-cosmetic items and titles would NEVER BE otherwise in the game. It is solely an additional service NOT at the expense of the content for regular subscribers.

Originally posted by Pynda

The question I have is whether the current cash shop is just to get people used to the idea. And that the pay to win items are going to be slowly introduced sometime later.

This is of course a valid concern. CCP tried this with the monocle debacle in EVE and that didn't end very well. Hopefully other devs have learned from them.

I'm pretty sure my cash shop bought aviation shades and shirt&tie give me a definite advantage over other players that don't use the cash shop - advantage in looking cool!

Originally posted by lifeordinary

Originally posted by korent1991

Originally posted by Maitrader

So many haters bitch and moan about the cash shop in TSW.... the shop ONLY sells clothing, pets, outfits, titles.... all cosmetic shit that gives you ABSOLUTELY NO ADVANTAGE in the game ... there are ingame vendors who sell shitloads of clothing... theres a pet vendor.... so you cannot buy a title with pax..... who the fuck cares? unbelieveable that people say that the cash shop in TSW is ridiculous and a disgrace.. if you think its a disgrace that FC offers vanity items to those who can afford it, then move along, or get a better paying job that will allow you to be vain as well.

haha... It is outrageous that they're offering a cash shop when the game has a monthly fee... It would be great to have something like in game shop and you could get all those items you want for some rare currency which is obtainable only trough game...

I don't get it why do people support companies efforts to milk you dry. Just because the game is good enough for you to play it is enough to take on this really greedy move? We already know that the subscription is a robbery and outdated model because they can't make new content with the same pace as they're getting profit from subs (and you can't blame the costs of the servers or bandwith because nowadays that's really just a minor, and cheap, issue). So why the hell would someone support this model is just out of this world for me.

Why do people spend money on anything extra in life? it is not just about video games. people have disposable income and they want to spend it.

Do i go around stressing my brain everytime i see someone wearing a gold plated rolex? after all my cheap casio watch can also tell time in same effecient manner.. but hey that guy got money to burn so good for him.

People need to stop stressing about how others choose to spend their money.

Well, isn't what this thread is all about ? Stressing on why people don't want to spend their money on the cash shop and have a problem with it ? 

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.

See what I did there?

Originally posted by Bhorzo

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Sorrow

Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.

 .

Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.

 

 

Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.

 

Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.

 

Non MMO's have like what, 20, 30, maybe 50 hours of content.  MMORPG's have anywhere from 100 to perhaps 500 hours of content, so then by your logic in order to pay for their extraordinary development costs a MMORPG should have a box price of like, $250.00?

Since no one will pay that, they expect to recoop some of the development costs (which have jumped from about 10M per title to over 300M if some reports are to be trusted) rewarding those who were willing to risk the investment in the project in the first place.

Another big use of sub fees is to fund not only development of new features in the current game, but also fund the development of the companies future titles, so they don't have to turn to outside investors for funding.  CCP is funding two titles, WOD and DUST 514 with the revenues generated from EVE (much to my displeasure, but what can you do?)

It was never about the cost to maintain the servers, that's always a small figure in the overall scheme of things.

And while its true that there is more outsourcing most western MMORPG's seem to keep a much larger portion of their development onshore as opposed to outsourcing it overseas.

And speaking of outsourcing, you have any idea what that really costs?  My firm pays an average of $42.00 an hour for contract offshore resources (and we have the economic muscle to really squeeze the prices down from our vendors) which is a good deal compared to the average costs of roughly $87.00 per hour for onshore vendors or employees.

But either way, the bills add up quick especially when you have a large team, TESO seems to have over 250 people working on it, SWTOR and even the recently failed 38 Studios had more on the payroll.

And like I said, seems like most western MMO's use onshore resources more often than not.

Finally, we need to talk about profit.  These games are not labors of love, they are profit making entities and the more profit, the better for the people who sponsor them.  They don't care if you think what they make is obscene, they take the risks by investing 100M or so, there's no issue reaping the rewards of their successes, as well as their failures.

Feel free to develop your own 'charity' MMORPG. 

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.

See what I did there?

In that case why have a sub at all?

Any way you slice it, they are double-dipping their profits. If people are fine w/ it, than that's their choice. However, there isn't any real justification for having both. Post-WoW, the industry has shown that cash shops are actually better for generating revenue anyhow.

Hell, I don't see why they couldn't just do the Turbine model tbh. Give people a choice, have an unrestricted game for the sub, or free but limit most of the outfits to the cash shop. Currently they are doing the worst of both.

Originally posted by Sorrow

Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.

 

Sorry but cash shops in a subscription supported game = one thing and one thing only.. a disqusting predatory level of greed that should never be condoned.

 

i would tend to agree with you.  although sub fees also haven't gone up in the last ten years,  to account for inflation.

Originally posted by Kyleran

Originally posted by Bhorzo

Originally posted by SpottyGekko

Originally posted by Sorrow

Actually game maintance, support staff, even bandwidth have all come way down over the last 10 years if anything subscription prices should be coming down.

 .

Really ? So admin staff, customer support staff, developers, technical people and graphic artists are all being paid less now than they were 10 years ago ? That's shocking. 'Tis no wonder modern MMO's all suck.

 

 

Maintence, support staff, and bandwidth costs HAVE come down over time, yes. Technology is cheaper, staff have been outsourced to china/india, and bandwidth is pennies now. Things that a sub is "supposed" to pay for have effectively become nearly free. $15/month used to be needed for technology and servers and bandwidth... but that is like 1% of a game's mainenance cost these days.

 

Game development, and standard customer support.... has always been paid for by box sales. This is how it's worked for every other non-MMORPG game company out there, and it seems to have worked for them.

 

Non MMO's have like what, 20, 30, maybe 50 hours of content.  MMORPG's have anywhere from 100 to perhaps 500 hours of content, so then by your logic in order to pay for their extraordinary development costs a MMORPG should have a box price of like, $250.00?

Since no one will pay that, they expect to recoop some of the development costs (which have jumped from about 10M per title to over 300M if some reports are to be trusted) rewarding those who were willing to risk the investment in the project in the first place.

Another big use of sub fees is to fund not only development of new features in the current game, but also fund the development of the companies future titles, so they don't have to turn to outside investors for funding.  CCP is funding two titles, WOD and DUST 514 with the revenues generated from EVE (much to my displeasure, but what can you do?)

It was never about the cost to maintain the servers, that's always a small figure in the overall scheme of things.

And while its true that there is more outsourcing most western MMORPG's seem to keep a much larger portion of their development onshore as opposed to outsourcing it overseas.

And speaking of outsourcing, you have any idea what that really costs?  My firm pays an average of $42.00 an hour for contract offshore resources (and we have the economic muscle to really squeeze the prices down from our vendors) which is a good deal compared to the average costs of roughly $87.00 per hour for onshore vendors or employees.

But either way, the bills add up quick especially when you have a large team, TESO seems to have over 250 people working on it, SWTOR and even the recently failed 38 Studios had more on the payroll.

And like I said, seems like most western MMO's use onshore resources more often than not.

Finally, we need to talk about profit.  These games are not labors of love, they are profit making entities and the more profit, the better for the people who sponsor them.  They don't care if you think what they make is obscene, they take the risks by investing 100M or so, there's no issue reaping the rewards of their successes, as well as their failures.

Feel free to develop your own 'charity' MMORPG. 

 

 

MMORPGs recycle assests to an extraordinary degree. Just because it has 5x more "content", doesn't mean it cost 5x as much to make. But if MMORPG prices went up to $90, I'd be okay with that, if it genuinely cost 50% as much to make as a typical $60 game.

As for funding future development... most game companies do so with current box sales. The fact that all other genre of games have had their companies survive through box sales, suggests MMORPGs can do the same. I just fail to see where this additional cost comes from that so desperately requires a sub fee.

Originally posted by aesperus

Originally posted by tom_gore

Originally posted by colddog04

I don't understand why they can't give the items in the cash shop to players in game for the price of a $15/month subscription. They are literally developing stuff for the cash shop that you can't get to without opening your wallet even though you are paying a monthly sub.

They are literally developing stuff for the sub players with the money they got from the cash shop.

See what I did there?

In that case why have a sub at all?

Any way you slice it, they are double-dipping their profits. If people are fine w/ it, than that's their choice. However, there isn't any real justification for having both. Post-WoW, the industry has shown that cash shops are actually better for generating revenue anyhow.

Hell, I don't see why they couldn't just do the Turbine model tbh. Give people a choice, have an unrestricted game for the sub, or free but limit most of the outfits to the cash shop. Currently they are doing the worst of both.

Post-WOW, all we've really learned is that the WOW model can work. What is the WOW model?

$90 box + sub fee + cash shop.

Can't blame others for trying to do the same.