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7/18/12 5:36:12 PM#41
Originally posted by Wolfenpride That's why there's a permanent sticky at the top of the forum where you can argue this to your heart's content. |
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Originally posted by Vorthanion 500K subs 6 months after release for a game which was supposed to be the WoW killer is not a success in my book, that's why half Bioware has been fired by EA If the game in question was Darkfall, then 500K is an excelllent number, but not for EA which invested lots of money in the project. They spent 100 Millions to make a game which supposedly should have matched WoW numbers. The lesson I linked was the start of the journey to get there, but the project was flawed from the start, that's why I linked it, just to show that a MMO built around a solo play style is bound to be doomed, no matter how much thought and money you put behind the project. My theory is that MMO players (the ones that are willing to pay for a subscription) are not casual players, WoW players are not casuyal players either. Yet all the developers for the last 7 years seemed to race against each other to make their MMO as casual as possible, while all the data points to the opposite direction. Casual players play single player games or F2P MMOs, they do not play subscription MMORPGs. If developers want to charge for a subscription or even use a cash shop, they need to start making MMORPGs for MMO players, not for casual gamers who are a very volatile bunch of people, and cannot stick with the same game for more than a month.
Zenimax.......players want Skyrim Online. They do NOT want WOWTES |
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7/18/12 6:11:50 PM#43
Originally posted by Comaf I am being sincere here, you are Matt Firor's target audience. TES:O for better or worse will be DAoC 2.0 with a thin varnish of The Elder Scrolls. Sure there's no lore friendly justifiable reason for why the Tamrielic races would split into three factions, but who cares, as long as the lore can be massacred into fitting a RvRvR format. I think you will be one of the few people to not be disappointed in the game, which is good because you know what you want and I suspect TES:O will deliver for you. I honestly do not believe Firor could design an MMO that wasn't a retread of DAoC. ---------- |
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7/18/12 6:15:17 PM#44
Yep, developers are out of touch with their audience.
Similar experience with Turbine recently...
I was speaking to someone from Turbine the other day about some issues they were having with the account pages, with XP I believe it was.
At any rate I mentioned to him that I thought the market was ripe for something different, aka a new Asheron's Call type MMO. One that is similar to the original AC in most aspects. He said while he agreed with me whole heartedly, the higher ups at Turbine did not. Their idea of what we want is more of the same crap we've been seeing.
Some developer will "get it" eventually...I hope. Einherjar_LC says: WTB the true successor to UO or Asheron's Call pst! |
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7/18/12 6:28:32 PM#45
Originally posted by Wolfenpride You can't possibly believe it's completely impossible to have fun alone in a MMO, right? I'm sure you do understand that's possible, even if you don't agree...right? |
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7/18/12 6:38:00 PM#46
Originally posted by ste2000 I don't agree with that. I think there are hardcore wow players of course. But from what I've run into, WoW players are "WoW" players. These aren't people in my guilds and mostly "not friends", just acquaintences. Out of the people I've met who played mmos and were not self proclaimed gamers, all but one played soilely played WoW and to varying degrees. Some Hardcore and some casually. Not only that but most of them didn't know about other mmo's. So, looking at your statement I would say that if there is any truth to it it probably is more like "WoW players are mostly WoW players and every developer is getting it so wrong as they aren't about to leave wow and probably don't care about other mmo's" |
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7/18/12 7:02:48 PM#47
Originally posted by AdamTM Of course people perform better with limited choices, it's easier to guess. Get rid of the multiple choice altogether and make people write in the answer and watch how they perform. "How should I know if it works? That's what beta testers are for. I only coded it." |
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7/18/12 7:28:49 PM#48
Originally posted by Wolfenpride This is actually not true . most players want both solo and group content. The true obvious solution that allows both of these conditions to exist simultaniously is to have a three man grouping game. You can still solo and duo content made for a three man group, so the sky is the limit for soloers based on their skill and ingenuity. thats all they want. I have to be honest with you. We have completely blown up the design of EverQuest Next. For the last year and a half we have been working on something we are not ready to show. Why did we blow up the design? The design was evolutionary. It was EverQuest III. It was something that was slightly better than what had come before it. It was slightly better.What we are building is something that we will be very proud to call EverQuest. It will be the largest sandbox-style MMO ever designed.--Smed |
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7/18/12 9:44:34 PM#49
Originally posted by rungard Most did.. In 2004. Since team based pvp and raiding is the top content in a MMORPG. I'd suspect having more group content in a MMO's normal level progression would seem like fresh air to players looking for a challenge. One of SWTOR's biggest complaints that doesn't often get listed is the lack of group content early on. I mean there's some optional stuff, but really most of the open world group content can be soloed with minimal effort. a yo ho ho |
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7/19/12 12:08:52 AM#50
Originally posted by ste2000 500k in 6 month is more than what Eve can muster up in years. |
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7/19/12 12:43:11 AM#51
Originally posted by nariusseldon I don't think EVE costed 200 million+ dollars to make and had over 4 - 5 years of hype to go with it. |
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Originally posted by nariusseldon Right.............and EVE budget was $ 2 while SWTOR budget was $ 150 millions Still you can't see why SWTOR is a failure? Really? Zenimax.......players want Skyrim Online. They do NOT want WOWTES |
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Originally posted by Sovrath I see your point. But when I say WoW players are not casual players, I don't mean they are hardcore MMORPG players, which kinda goes well with your argument. What I mean is that those are players that put a lot of time and effort playing WOW, they do not play for just few hours a week. WoW end game is a terrible grind, yet WoW players are not scared ,and clock an awful amount of hours in order to get the best equipment the game can offer. WoW is basically 2 games in one. The leveling is pretty casual, but the end game is rather hardcore. The mistake developers are doing is they make the whole game casual and forget to put challenge in the end game. That's why players quit those so called WoW clones as soon as they reach level cap. In SWTOR almost everyone and their dog had the best Raid Equipment after few weeks of reaching level cap. You understand that once this happen, there is very little reason to stay subscribed to the game.
Zenimax.......players want Skyrim Online. They do NOT want WOWTES |
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7/19/12 10:41:16 AM#54
Originally posted by nariusseldon Did EVE cost as much at launch? Did EVE have an IP with as much pull and as large a fan base? Will SWTOR be around with that many subs in 9 years time without going f2p, maybe but it's looking very unlikely. |
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7/19/12 10:45:09 AM#55
Originally posted by Enigmatus Large shortterm subscription numbers are all that matters on these boards lol. Development and marketing costs are more like a "small entrance fee" into the market for that group of Big Sub enthusiasts. Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure. |
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7/19/12 11:00:37 AM#56
How about we let Matt Firor speak for himself on this matter:
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7/19/12 11:00:45 AM#57
Originally posted by Creslin321 True.
That is not ONLY issue though. Some people will say that "you can group up and do solo quests". Well that kind of argument is flawed at basic level - nowadays solo content is very easy - when you did it in a group it became so boring and unchallanging that is does not even resemble a game anymore. It becames a chore. Cutscenes & dialogue cannot change that.
People want to have separate group content to look for to do and ALSO enough solo content to play solo when they feel like it and still progress. Now two things arise - developer have to give almost two times X content group based and solo based. UO did it marvelusely - you could get almost everything and progress you character to max skills & stats in a game totally solo, but you had to group up in order to kill a dragon for example. Second thing is to design and balance those two things. Very hard to do is you're developing structured themepark game. Since you would need two separate paths that should be similarly attractive. Mess for modern themeparks that are so much structured and hand holding nowadays.
Bit easier but still challanging to create in less linear, less-directed game when players have to choose themselves and find / figure out certain things themselves. Of course that limit potetnial playerbase.
Some of this might be "fixed" with open world dynamic scaling, but that won't fix all of it since with content scaling it has to scale to "certain level of challange" that some people will find too easy and some too hard. Of course you can write 'scaling' scripts by hand for every encounter - that's alot of work though, might be needed though.
Anyway scaling is good but IMHO is not good for ALL of the content. It can be used to part or even majority if it, won't work out so well if you scale everything.
Another solution is to put everything in instances and let people choose "difficulty" / level of scaling. Well by doing that you will create lobby game, new (sub) genre. Some mmos tried that with some success. But that's not solution for mmoprg's. It might be solution to create fun game, but it won't be mmorpg and if dev will decide to market it as full featured mmorpg then lobby backslash from players in Swtor will seem like genle suggestion in comparision and rightfully so.
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Creslin321 - anyway I agree with you. Player want an OPTION to play solo, and not want 'whole' experience super easy solo + few repetable instances with forced grouping at end game. That might have worked for a few years but it won't anymore imho. Games with that design will get their open world content 'eaten' in matter of days - weeks and then players that will run instances over and over at end game will ask themself - 1. why I am playing lobby-game when I signed for mmorpg? 2. why I am paying on-going payment for it? 3. I did that already in [put game name here]. 4. What this open world questing, levelling and all other activities were for when at 'end-game' I am doing something completly diffrent ? Then they will quit.
For people that want lobby-based, conveniant match-making gameplay there is increasing amount of CORPG's like DD&O, C9, Vindictus, soon Marvel Heroes and many more. + there is MOBA games + FPS games + rts games + countless other lobby or co-op games. Mmorpg's trying to make themself more similar to those games - well they lose they will always lose - it alrady started. Initial strenght of mmorpg's were that they were DIFFRENT and that's why players payed subscriptions for them.
Turning into matchmaking lobby game was very succesful for WoW BUT that was in totally diffrent market, there were not so many lobby / co-op online games avabile then. Not to mention playerbase did not knew that kind of lobbbizied mmorpg's.
Thing is mmorpg's WILL lose popularity. Going for 'widest possible audience and fighting for playerbase with MOBA, fps and other lobby games' will not be viable strategy anymore.
Of couse someone might lobbize their mmorpg so much that it will be like i.e. MOBA game thing is then it will stop being mmorpg and players will ask WHY I even have to deal with all those mmo stuff (like levelling, socializing, open world , travelling, etc) if this game is basically a lobby.
Devs overpushed on solofying, "lobbizing", making mmorpg's conveniant. Mmorpg's lost DIFFERENTIATING arguments vs other games and that's why they cannot hold their playerbase for long.
F2P will not magically fix this issue. It alrady start to became apparent but it will became obvious in max few years. |
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7/19/12 11:03:54 AM#58
Originally posted by XAPGames +1 |
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7/19/12 11:49:11 AM#59
Originally posted by nariusseldon Except Eve is still growing. What do you think SWTOR will look like in 8 years? I'll bet most players won't even remember it existed. "How should I know if it works? That's what beta testers are for. I only coded it." |
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7/19/12 6:57:25 PM#60
Originally posted by nariusseldon EVE Online has made small startup company transform into company that has few offices in diffrent parts of the world, employing few hundred employers, funding buying of other well-known p&p company (White Wolf) and last but not least funding development of two other games - Dust 514 and WoD. + EVE initial costs were insanely smaller, not even comparable. Playerbase for most time was growing or being stable with only one time decrease.
Swtor on the other hand - is rumored to be most expensive mmropg ever, maybe even most expensive game ever. What it managed to do? Second run of layoffs at Swtor BW studios, bleeding players at increasingly fast rate, failed to attract long-term new audience for mmorpg's - Bioware cinemtaic rpg's fans (surprising I know) and by all means it's future is looking rather grim.
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