Originally posted by seridan

Guild Wars 2 will be a success when people start playing on the live servers and get immersed. Success equals fun, if there are lots and lots of people having fun with the game then it is successful. If the amount of servers is increased then it is successful, if the expansions sell as well as the full game then it is successful. But most of all if anytime of the day you can find people to enjoy the game with, then it means it is successful.

GW2 aims at people who don't play MMORPGs at all as well as veterans. Veterans will love the freedom of exploration, those who hate MMORPGs will love the cooperative mechanics, the profession mechanics and the combat. There are certain reasons people hate MMORPGs and GW2 doesn't have most of them (no grind, no static combat, no sub fee are some)

SWTOR was never a game changer, it never tried to be either. They made certain descisions that lead to the game being one of the same. The only game changing part was the storyline, nothing more. It appears that a good storyline isn't enough for a successful MMORPG. Gameplay > Story anytime

We'll see how successful it will be. Is it a Game Changer? Yes because it does things differently. Is it the best MMO ever? For those who like what the game gives of course it is! Will it be successful? 1 mil people applied for the beta test, thousands already pre-purchased the game, there are currently 96 servers for it, granted we don't know how many people each one supports, but it is a clear indication that the game exceeded at least all the expectations of Anet, they only had 48 servers for BWE1 they didn't expect the game to be so successful

I know many fans of GW1 that won't be playing GW2 because they prefer a lobby based PVP game. GW2 is only on the same universe as GW1, they are not similar in any way (fortunately or unfortunately, depending on person)

According to your logic... TOR is a success. As Success equals fun. No one can argue there are AT LEAST about 100K playing TOR and having fun... so... 100K is "lots" of people... those "lots" are people having fun. Hence... the game is a success. I agree. The only way a game fails is to shut the servers down. If they have anyone paying them to play, it's a success...lol. 

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Tyvolus

Nothing so far has convinced me I want to buy and play this game. Having said that, I will be watching it and may buy in the future -- regardless I hope it does great !!

I'll be watching it, but unless they throw something in there that really allows you to interact with the world around you (as most themeparks don't) I won't touch it :(. So far they don't have anything like that.

 

I want a living breathing world, and not a hayride that I have a chance of falling off from 3months down the road because it stopped on me suddenly without warning.

 

:)

In short you're one of those "Sandbox only" people. Got it.

An interesting way to try and immediately destroy whatever someone says by generalizing them down to a single tag.

 

To shoot you completely down, no I'm not a "Sandbox Only" person. I played DAOC for YEARS and loved it, and that was more of a "SandPark", but a WoW player I most certainly am not. I enjoy thinking for myself and figuring stuff out without a massive quest marker handed to me telling me where/what/how to do something.

Then there's a LOT more that goes into a game that simply doesn't anymore to make it fun. Properly made MMOs are about "layers" of interaction. I'm not saying GW2 isn't "properly" made for what it is, a themepark. However, that doesn't mean it has characteristics that will provide longevitiy in my eyes.

I'm simply not seeing anything new coming from GW2 that has any real lasting appeal. I know you feel differently, but that's the nature of these things unfortunately.

hmm why do you get angry when someone tells you that you like exactly what you are describing?? You are not going to find what you want in a themepark....its like he said, sandbox charactereistics that you like.

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Tyvolus

Nothing so far has convinced me I want to buy and play this game. Having said that, I will be watching it and may buy in the future -- regardless I hope it does great !!

I'll be watching it, but unless they throw something in there that really allows you to interact with the world around you (as most themeparks don't) I won't touch it :(. So far they don't have anything like that.

 

I want a living breathing world, and not a hayride that I have a chance of falling off from 3months down the road because it stopped on me suddenly without warning.

 

:)

For example?

Can you place a house where you want in the "living breathing" world of GW2 with respect to obvious quest locations or scripted events?

Can you create cities?

Can you leave a lasting impact on the world around you, or is it simply a respawn/scripted event that has no real dimensional impact on anything you've done so far?

If I save X city from being ravaged by Centaurs will it perminantly leave that town scared if I fail in protecting them, or will it eventually be "magically" repaired & reset for someone ELSE to experience said content EXACTLY the same way you experienced it?

Can you craft armor from items you gathered/looted/mined/collected from the GW2 world that are unique, or are they simply stacks of generic metal/stone/cloth/string with no decernable difference between another piece of similar material?

How is the economy driven? Is it simply based on gear drops from instanced bosses that anyone and their mother can do in an hour thereby demeaning the whole experience?

These aren't sandbox elements mind you. MANY other MMOs from the past have done similar elements (granted not all) and were still Themeparks/Sandparks. This is true immersion, and true interaction with world that creates that living breathing world. A few choices of armor color, armor design, hairstyles, skincolor, class type, and weapon choices do NOT make you unique...only more diverse than a two-sided coin.

Obviously all are my opinion based on my 20years of gaming, but that's besides the point.

ps: I'm not ACTUALLY asking questions here. I'm giving you examples that you can fill in the blanks for yourself with. Most, if not all, are solid "no's".

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Tyvolus

Nothing so far has convinced me I want to buy and play this game. Having said that, I will be watching it and may buy in the future -- regardless I hope it does great !!

I'll be watching it, but unless they throw something in there that really allows you to interact with the world around you (as most themeparks don't) I won't touch it :(. So far they don't have anything like that.

 

I want a living breathing world, and not a hayride that I have a chance of falling off from 3months down the road because it stopped on me suddenly without warning.

 

:)

In short you're one of those "Sandbox only" people. Got it.

An interesting way to try and immediately destroy whatever someone says by generalizing them down to a single tag.

 

To shoot you completely down, no I'm not a "Sandbox Only" person. I played DAOC for YEARS and loved it, and that was more of a "SandPark", but a WoW player I most certainly am not. I enjoy thinking for myself and figuring stuff out without a massive quest marker handed to me telling me where/what/how to do something.

Then there's a LOT more that goes into a game that simply doesn't anymore to make it fun. Properly made MMOs are about "layers" of interaction. I'm not saying GW2 isn't "properly" made for what it is, a themepark. However, that doesn't mean it has characteristics that will provide longevitiy in my eyes.

I'm simply not seeing anything new coming from GW2 that has any real lasting appeal. I know you feel differently, but that's the nature of these things unfortunately.

hmm why do you get angry when someone tells you that you like exactly what you are describing?? You are not going to find what you want in a themepark....its like he said, sandbox charactereistics that you like.

You missed that part. He tried to categorize me as "Oh, you're a sandbox player, therefore nothing you say matters about themeparks.." which is childish and a completely unacceptable way to shut someone down whom has a differing opinion. It's not even an attempt at a discussion. That's why I got angry.

I also played EQ, which was the first iteration of a themepark. It was also NOT "hand-held quest driven" which brought challenge and thought into the equation. So simply demeaning me as a "sandbox person" is trolling at best.

That and he's wrong, those two things :)!

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Kuppa

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Tyvolus

Nothing so far has convinced me I want to buy and play this game. Having said that, I will be watching it and may buy in the future -- regardless I hope it does great !!

I'll be watching it, but unless they throw something in there that really allows you to interact with the world around you (as most themeparks don't) I won't touch it :(. So far they don't have anything like that.

 

I want a living breathing world, and not a hayride that I have a chance of falling off from 3months down the road because it stopped on me suddenly without warning.

 

:)

In short you're one of those "Sandbox only" people. Got it.

An interesting way to try and immediately destroy whatever someone says by generalizing them down to a single tag.

 

To shoot you completely down, no I'm not a "Sandbox Only" person. I played DAOC for YEARS and loved it, and that was more of a "SandPark", but a WoW player I most certainly am not. I enjoy thinking for myself and figuring stuff out without a massive quest marker handed to me telling me where/what/how to do something.

Then there's a LOT more that goes into a game that simply doesn't anymore to make it fun. Properly made MMOs are about "layers" of interaction. I'm not saying GW2 isn't "properly" made for what it is, a themepark. However, that doesn't mean it has characteristics that will provide longevitiy in my eyes.

I'm simply not seeing anything new coming from GW2 that has any real lasting appeal. I know you feel differently, but that's the nature of these things unfortunately.

hmm why do you get angry when someone tells you that you like exactly what you are describing?? You are not going to find what you want in a themepark....its like he said, sandbox charactereistics that you like.

You missed that part. He tried to categorize me as "Oh, you're a sandbox player, therefore nothing you say matters about themeparks.." which is childish and a completely unacceptable way to shut someone down whom has a differing opinion. It's not even an attempt at a discussion. That's why I got angry.

That and he's wrong, those two things :)!

IDK it just seemed to me like a "you like X playstyle and this game does not have it, end of discussion"....do you just want to keep arguing?

Originally posted by Kuppa

You missed that part. He tried to categorize me as "Oh, you're a sandbox player, therefore nothing you say matters about themeparks.." which is childish and a completely unacceptable way to shut someone down whom has a differing opinion. It's not even an attempt at a discussion. That's why I got angry.

That and he's wrong, those two things :)!

IDK it just seemed to me like a "you like X playstyle and this game does not have it, end of discussion"....do you just want to just keep fighting?

I'm confused here, who's fighting? We're having a discussion and he made a horribly rude and childish comment. Moving on now ~~~>

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Kuppa

You missed that part. He tried to categorize me as "Oh, you're a sandbox player, therefore nothing you say matters about themeparks.." which is childish and a completely unacceptable way to shut someone down whom has a differing opinion. It's not even an attempt at a discussion. That's why I got angry.

That and he's wrong, those two things :)!

IDK it just seemed to me like a "you like X playstyle and this game does not have it, end of discussion"....do you just want to just keep fighting?

I'm confused here, who's fighting? We're having a discussion and he made a horribly rude and childish comment. Moving on now ~~~>

Meant to say arguing :)

And you should have probably moved on earlier, there was nothing "childish" about his comment 

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Xzen

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Tyvolus

Nothing so far has convinced me I want to buy and play this game. Having said that, I will be watching it and may buy in the future -- regardless I hope it does great !!

I'll be watching it, but unless they throw something in there that really allows you to interact with the world around you (as most themeparks don't) I won't touch it :(. So far they don't have anything like that.

 

I want a living breathing world, and not a hayride that I have a chance of falling off from 3months down the road because it stopped on me suddenly without warning.

 

:)

In short you're one of those "Sandbox only" people. Got it.

An interesting way to try and immediately destroy whatever someone says by generalizing them down to a single tag.

 

To shoot you completely down, no I'm not a "Sandbox Only" person. I played DAOC for YEARS and loved it, and that was more of a "SandPark", but a WoW player I most certainly am not. I enjoy thinking for myself and figuring stuff out without a massive quest marker handed to me telling me where/what/how to do something.

Then there's a LOT more that goes into a game that simply doesn't anymore to make it fun. Properly made MMOs are about "layers" of interaction. I'm not saying GW2 isn't "properly" made for what it is, a themepark. However, that doesn't mean it has characteristics that will provide longevitiy in my eyes.

I'm simply not seeing anything new coming from GW2 that has any real lasting appeal. I know you feel differently, but that's the nature of these things unfortunately.

Hey it's ok if that is what you like. In your own post you said you will not play GW2 because it lacks sandbox features. Nothing wrong with that. Also just so you know I play and enjoy both types. As for your last point I agree that most people will not play gw2 for more than a couple months, no real lasting power there just like any themepark. But that's why I think it's worth the box price with no sub fee.

"GW2 will be seen as successful due to box sales only, doesn't mean it's an industry changer!"

Who cares? why should ppl care?

i mean, feels like most of ppl (in this website) that like a game are more concerned if that game is gona beat WoW rather than if they will enjoy all the game content or something.

And if a game is very awesome but because it only has 100k subs + couple servers they wont play it and they'll move to an OK game with 5m subs + hundreds of servers.

Ppl should just play a game they seem fun and not by subs decreasing order.

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Sebber

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Originally posted by Tyvolus

Nothing so far has convinced me I want to buy and play this game. Having said that, I will be watching it and may buy in the future -- regardless I hope it does great !!

I'll be watching it, but unless they throw something in there that really allows you to interact with the world around you (as most themeparks don't) I won't touch it :(. So far they don't have anything like that.

 

I want a living breathing world, and not a hayride that I have a chance of falling off from 3months down the road because it stopped on me suddenly without warning.

 

:)

For example?

Can you place a house where you want in the "living breathing" world of GW2 with respect to obvious quest locations or scripted events?

Can you create cities?

Can you leave a lasting impact on the world around you, or is it simply a respawn/scripted event that has no real dimensional impact on anything you've done so far?

If I save X city from being ravaged by Centaurs will it perminantly leave that town scared if I fail in protecting them, or will it eventually be "magically" repaired & reset for someone ELSE to experience said content EXACTLY the same way you experienced it?

Can you craft armor from items you gathered/looted/mined/collected from the GW2 world that are unique, or are they simply stacks of generic metal/stone/cloth/string with no decernable difference between another piece of similar material?

How is the economy driven? Is it simply based on gear drops from instanced bosses that anyone and their mother can do in an hour thereby demeaning the whole experience?

 

These aren't sandbox elements mind you. MANY other MMOs from the past have done similar elements (granted not all) and were still Themeparks/Sandparks. This is true immersion, and true interaction with world that creates that living breathing world. A few choices of armor color, armor design, hairstyles, skincolor, class type, and weapon choices do NOT make you unique...only more diverse than a two-sided coin.

 

Obviously all are my opinion based on my 20years of gaming, but that's besides the point.

 

ps: I'm not ACTUALLY asking questions here. I'm giving you examples that you can fill in the blanks for yourself with. Most, if not all, are solid "no's".

-Player housing is being disucssed by Anet. They're doing guild halls for sure, but up in the air about player houses. We'll see.

-No you cannot create cities.

-You cannot have a lasting, permanent effect on the world. But, name me one MMO that does this. Even the vaunted sandboxes like UO, Darkfall, EVE, etc. You kill a mob, it respawns. You defeat an enemy, and it appears, or they create a new one to replace it. There is no permanence in a PVE environment of any multiplayer game out there. If you can cite an example I'll gladly eat those words, but near positive it doesn't exist. It can't. If you had that, and the first few people cleared it all, there'd be nothing for anyone else.

Oh but wait, you say. We can make new events with new monsters! Which, in essence, is still a respawn. Just using a different skin. The closest you can come to PvE permanence in a persistent, online world and still manage to provide meaningful content to thousands of players, 24/7, is to create many, MANY random spawn points, and have the spawn table itself be RNG. So you never know what's popping up or when. That gives the illusion of permanence.

-I never quite understand that crafting comment. What exactly do you mean by unique? And can you cite a game that's done it? I know in UO you could discover your own crafting recipes, but all they really did was have maybe a slightly different stat point or two, and have the player's name on them (e.g. "Bob's Super Sword of Awesome"). Is that what you are talking about?

-We can't answer questions about the economy since it doesn't exist yet. however, conjecturing from what we've seen so far, the big ticket items will be:

-crafting materials

-crafted items

-gems

-possibly dyes (if they get this system working the way it SHOULD work)

Dungeon loot can be gotten by anyone. Even if the Tier 1 dungeon doens't drop your chest piece, you gain tokens with which to buy the same piece. And gear is less stat driven than wow, so you're mostly just concerned with aesthetics.

I will agree your vision is MORE a living world than GW2, in the way that GW2 is MORE a living world than wow. Consider it progression. 

Theme parks lack long term replayability. The dynamic event grind will wear people's patience thin. Doesn't matter if you change classes or races the event grind will always be the same, go kill x amount of enemies to get to the end boss in events. It will always be the same format starting at level 1.  Yeah it will sell well like every mmo does at launch but this is nothing more than your weekend stay at the beach.

Originally posted by Mephster

Theme parks lack long term replayability. The dynamic event grind will wear people's patience thin. Doesn't matter if you change classes or races the event grind will always be the same, go kill x amount of enemies to get to the end boss in events. It will always be the same format starting at level 1.  Yeah it will sell well like every mmo does at launch but this is nothing more than your weekend stay at the beach.

This is a possiblity. but if you make it new enemies, in different areas, and provide different objectives, it can still be fresh and interesting. For many people. many others see ANY quest as a repeat of any other quest; I don't know how those folks play RPGs. 

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Take a look at SWTOR. The only measurable form of success for modern MMOs is their retention rate of subscribers. However, GW2 really has no measurable way to see how successful they are. It is a Buy-To-Play and if we were measuring box sales as a form of success than SWTOR, AOC, Aion, TERA, and Diablo III (albeit not an MMO) are all true successes in the market, but the reality is that's not how we measure success!

 The number of people playing maybe, server loads, stuff like that?

So right now the market prediction is 1.2 to 1.5 million box sales. Cool, a reasonable expectation considering GW1 had a decent following, and given the fact that GW2 is nothing but GW1 on steroids that's a completely acceptable expectation. However, do NOT make the mistake in thinking that GW2 will "change the industry" in terms of gameplay, world design, etc. GW2 is a specific fanbase, and is still a themepark MMO. We won't see major waves out of GW2 for any other noticable benefit other than B2P + CashShop cosmetic cash shop (even though buying experience bonuses is NOT cosmetic) being more popular for MMOs to use. Not a bad thing, but still not the best.

 GW2 is not GW on steroids. It's quite a different animal.

SWTOR was predicted as "the game changer", and even got the same amount of hype threads as GW2 is getting about how amazing it will be. It won't be that amazing, but if you're excited for it just realize that there are quite a few more who are using it as a simple time waster for other games to come out (the general admission I seem to get from people IRL).

 Only by a few higher ups at EA/BW, the forth pillar, right. Some people were fooled into thinking no MMO would ever be released without VO after SWTOR. Guess what, the VO are so annoying that the vast majority start skipping them quite fast. They're nice, but not for every single quest. And then the choices that rarely have any significant impact. Bleh. The only change to the industry will be that nobody will make the same mistake again. All that effort that could have been spent on things to actually make the game better.

 Game Changer, Best MMO Ever, Best MMO Ever Made, Most Successful MMO? Certainly none of these, but successful as a PROPERLY done fan-oriented successor to GW1? Absolutely!

 I think G2 will sell to more people than the GW fans. I wouldn't call it fan-oriented, but gamer-oriented.

Gotta say, I won't be playing GW2, but it's about damn time developers properly did a sequel of an original that is actually meant for the fans of the original product.

 You mean ME2 and ME3 are not made for the ME fans?

Originally posted by Fadedbomb

Can you place a house where you want in the "living breathing" world of GW2 with respect to obvious quest locations or scripted events?

Can you create cities?

Can you leave a lasting impact on the world around you, or is it simply a respawn/scripted event that has no real dimensional impact on anything you've done so far?

If I save X city from being ravaged by Centaurs will it perminantly leave that town scared if I fail in protecting them, or will it eventually be "magically" repaired & reset for someone ELSE to experience said content EXACTLY the same way you experienced it?

Can you craft armor from items you gathered/looted/mined/collected from the GW2 world that are unique, or are they simply stacks of generic metal/stone/cloth/string with no decernable difference between another piece of similar material?

How is the economy driven? Is it simply based on gear drops from instanced bosses that anyone and their mother can do in an hour thereby demeaning the whole experience?

 

These aren't sandbox elements mind you. MANY other MMOs from the past have done similar elements (granted not all) and were still Themeparks/Sandparks. This is true immersion, and true interaction with world that creates that living breathing world. A few choices of armor color, armor design, hairstyles, skincolor, class type, and weapon choices do NOT make you unique...only more diverse than a two-sided coin.

 

Obviously all are my opinion based on my 20years of gaming, but that's besides the point.

 

ps: I'm not ACTUALLY asking questions here. I'm giving you examples that you can fill in the blanks for yourself with. Most, if not all, are solid "no's".

While this is something I would enjoy, no game has ever done all these features. This is basically just a pipe-dream that hasn't happened and probably won't for a long time. I do think it would be awesome, but was never something GW2 or most games ever promised.

ArenaNet is delivering on all of their promises I have read so far, and I am sure more stuff will be coming down the pipe at some point. Just whining about getting pizza when you bought ice cream at an ice cream shop makes zero sense, and I am not sure what the heck you were expecting ...

Originally posted by Mephster

Theme parks lack long term replayability. The dynamic event grind will wear people's patience thin.

Mmhh how do you increase your combat skills in a sandbox like UO... wait, I remember now, you go out in the world and kill (aka "grind") mobs. Sandbox games lack long term replayability, the repetitive grind will wear people's patience thin.

(I'm a big fan of UO, but I just wanted to point out the nonsense of assuming "boring grind = theme park")

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Mephster

Theme parks lack long term replayability. The dynamic event grind will wear people's patience thin.

Mmhh how do you increase your combat skills in a sandbox like UO... wait, I remember now, you go out in the world and kill (aka "grind") mobs. Sandbox games lack long term replayability, the repetitive grind will wear people's patience thin.

(I'm a big fan of UO, but I just wanted to point out the nonsense of assuming "boring grind = theme park")

 Haha yeah, I remember spending a TON of time in UO grinding skills or gold.  I probably killed daemons with blade spirits for like 150 hours total.  And I remember spending a lot of time just sitting in firewalls in player towns to raise magic resist.

What you are missing Mephster is that community engenders longevity.  UO had tons of grind, but it also had a great community that kept people coming back.

I dunno, I think a big difference between older school games and new school games is that in old school games, you played the game for fun and getting exp/skills/gold was just something you did when you wanted to.  But in new games, the game is getting exp/skills/gold.  And that makes it feel much more like a grind.

I am hoping, with its large variety of things you can do, that GW2 will bring back the days where we just played a game to play.

To me, grinding of the standard sandbox level just screams that it's low quality. It was acceptable like 12 years ago but they need to come up with something better now.

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Mephster

Theme parks lack long term replayability. The dynamic event grind will wear people's patience thin.

Mmhh how do you increase your combat skills in a sandbox like UO... wait, I remember now, you go out in the world and kill (aka "grind") mobs. Sandbox games lack long term replayability, the repetitive grind will wear people's patience thin.

(I'm a big fan of UO, but I just wanted to point out the nonsense of assuming "boring grind = theme park")

 Haha yeah, I remember spending a TON of time in UO grinding skills or gold.  I probably killed daemons with blade spirits for like 150 hours total.  And I remember spending a lot of time just sitting in firewalls in player towns to raise magic resist.

What you are missing Mephster is that community engenders longevity.  UO had tons of grind, but it also had a great community that kept people coming back.

I dunno, I think a big difference between older school games and new school games is that in old school games, you played the game for fun and getting exp/skills/gold was just something you did when you wanted to.  But in new games, the game is getting exp/skills/gold.  And that makes it feel much more like a grind.

I am hoping, with its large variety of things you can do, that GW2 will bring back the days where we just played a game to play.

Best ways to create and foster community in a MMO- (in no particular order)

1. Player cities/towns

2. Shared objectives

3. Cooperative goals

4. Team based competition

5. Economy

GW2 has 4 of the 5.

The fact the game is without a doubt built as an immersive world, combined with the focus on fun and adventure - not gear and levels, hopefully will couple well with the above to create a game where you can indeed play the game to just.. play!

(no monthly sub fee helps w/ that too!)

In before GW2 kills WoW's population and becomes the most popular MMO for the next 5 years.

GW2 is an amazing game and deserves as much as that, hats off to arenanet for making such polished game that ill be spending thousands of hours enjoying.

This isnt hype, this is from what i've experienced actually playing the game.

It would take a fool to believe that GW2 wont change the industry, MMO's will be scambling to follow GW2's example.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by Creslin321

Originally posted by The_Korrigan

Originally posted by Mephster

Theme parks lack long term replayability. The dynamic event grind will wear people's patience thin.

Mmhh how do you increase your combat skills in a sandbox like UO... wait, I remember now, you go out in the world and kill (aka "grind") mobs. Sandbox games lack long term replayability, the repetitive grind will wear people's patience thin.

(I'm a big fan of UO, but I just wanted to point out the nonsense of assuming "boring grind = theme park")

 Haha yeah, I remember spending a TON of time in UO grinding skills or gold.  I probably killed daemons with blade spirits for like 150 hours total.  And I remember spending a lot of time just sitting in firewalls in player towns to raise magic resist.

What you are missing Mephster is that community engenders longevity.  UO had tons of grind, but it also had a great community that kept people coming back.

I dunno, I think a big difference between older school games and new school games is that in old school games, you played the game for fun and getting exp/skills/gold was just something you did when you wanted to.  But in new games, the game is getting exp/skills/gold.  And that makes it feel much more like a grind.

I am hoping, with its large variety of things you can do, that GW2 will bring back the days where we just played a game to play.

Best ways to create and foster community in a MMO- (in no particular order)

1. Player cities/towns

2. Shared objectives

3. Cooperative goals

4. Team based competition

5. Economy

GW2 has 4 of the 5.

The fact the game is without a doubt built as an immersive world, combined with the focus on fun and adventure - not gear and levels, hopefully will couple well with the above to create a game where you can indeed play the game to just.. play!

(no monthly sub fee helps w/ that too!)

Good points, agree 100% :).

I also have to bring up that in GW2, I actually enjoyed the battlegrounds just for the fun of them.  While in other MMORPGs I tolerate the massive imbalances of the battlegrounds just for the exp gain.

Here's to hoping that GW2 brings back game playing as opposed to exp playing.