Originally posted by BadSpock

Well, since the closest thing GW2 has to "quests" is the personal story, based on what I've seen, GW2 personal story > TSW quests hands down.

TSW does have the top notch for voice acting and cinematics (better than TOR IMO) but yeah I think the actual game play portions of GW2 personal story > game play portions of TSW quests.

 

So, those millions of "kill x, fecth y, escort z" aren't quests?

As i've said, the presentation is aweome adn why i like DE, but i haven't done of them that had some mechanics or goals or anything that i haven't seen before.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Well that's the problem with this game. It's almost entirely linear/solo oriented. Which means, the entire game rests on the back of the questing system. Which means, you need LOTS of quests, and they need to be padded to keep people subscribed longer. Which means... a lot of useless fetch quests. Now, if they had made the game social and open world like a proper MMO, and only had a handful of quests, and made them all really good, then maybe you could claim this game has the best quest system.

 

A lot of old MMO quests had you solving puzzles, writing things down, engaging in actual typed dialogue with NPCs, and, since the games weren't 100% quest focused, did this without watering them all down and padding them out.

It's kind of sad that 10 years later, the game with the "best quest system" is still playing catch up to games made by 15 people in a basement in the 90s.

 I rather enjoy the story themed quests in the game. I think they are good. Yes there are some mundane item quests with no depth to them but overall the story ones are rather interesting and amusing.

Is it the best? The hell...I don't think of it in those terms. I simply know I'm enjoying it and it is keeping me entertained. Just like I did with EQ....and WoW...and LotR...etc.

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by hellshanks

If you say "no" you haven't done an investigation quest, and had to pick out small details and actually figure something out, instead of "5 pigs... located over there? got it. I'll go kill those 5 pigs."

 

Sadly, they're not ALL investigation quests. If they were....now THAT would be something.

 Can't say I feel the same. They're fun in small doses but no thanks on just having those. Fuck that shit.

Well that's the problem with this game. It's almost entirely linear/solo oriented. Which means, the entire game rests on the back of the questing system. Which means, you need LOTS of quests, and they need to be padded to keep people subscribed longer. Which means... a lot of useless fetch quests. Now, if they had made the game social and open world like a proper MMO, and only had a handful of quests, and made them all really good, then maybe you could claim this game has the best quest system.

 

A lot of old MMO quests had you solving puzzles, writing things down, engaging in actual typed dialogue with NPCs, and, since the games weren't 100% quest focused, did this without watering them all down and padding them out.

It's kind of sad that 10 years later, the game with the "best quest system" is still playing catch up to games made by 15 people in a basement in the 90s.

Gonna repost this and remind everyone that an MMO doesn't become "good" by pretending to be a singleplayer game, because that is a battle it will NEVER win. That is why SWTOR is tanking.

I bought this game with the intention of beating the story in my free month and moving on. WIth that in mind I don't mind the solo content so much, and I find the investigative missions a nice change of pace. Is it completely new and innovative? Not in the least. Take away those map waypoints and shiny yellow highlights and then it'd be innvative, but the plebes couldn't play it.

Even without the waypoints it wouldn't be innovative. It's incredibly dumbed down.

But you're helping my point, you're essentially playing this game like a singleplayer game with some optional coop. That's fine. This game does that better than most. But this is not a Diablo game... this is an MMO, and thus should be judged against other MMOs, and expected to have the primary features of MMOs. And it does not. It comes up sorely lacking.

Without question it is the best mmo right now. 

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by TruthXHurts

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by hellshanks

If you say "no" you haven't done an investigation quest, and had to pick out small details and actually figure something out, instead of "5 pigs... located over there? got it. I'll go kill those 5 pigs."

 

Sadly, they're not ALL investigation quests. If they were....now THAT would be something.

 Can't say I feel the same. They're fun in small doses but no thanks on just having those. Fuck that shit.

Well that's the problem with this game. It's almost entirely linear/solo oriented. Which means, the entire game rests on the back of the questing system. Which means, you need LOTS of quests, and they need to be padded to keep people subscribed longer. Which means... a lot of useless fetch quests. Now, if they had made the game social and open world like a proper MMO, and only had a handful of quests, and made them all really good, then maybe you could claim this game has the best quest system.

 

A lot of old MMO quests had you solving puzzles, writing things down, engaging in actual typed dialogue with NPCs, and, since the games weren't 100% quest focused, did this without watering them all down and padding them out.

It's kind of sad that 10 years later, the game with the "best quest system" is still playing catch up to games made by 15 people in a basement in the 90s.

Gonna repost this and remind everyone that an MMO doesn't become "good" by pretending to be a singleplayer game, because that is a battle it will NEVER win. That is why SWTOR is tanking.

I bought this game with the intention of beating the story in my free month and moving on. WIth that in mind I don't mind the solo content so much, and I find the investigative missions a nice change of pace. Is it completely new and innovative? Not in the least. Take away those map waypoints and shiny yellow highlights and then it'd be innvative, but the plebes couldn't play it.

Even without the waypoints it wouldn't be innovative. It's incredibly dumbed down.

But you're helping my point, you're essentially playing this game like a singleplayer game with some optional coop. That's fine. This game does that better than most. But this is not a Diablo game... this is an MMO, and thus should be judged against other MMOs, and expected to have the primary features of MMOs. And it does not. It comes up sorely lacking.

MMO's are garbage now, and we have to face it and move on.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Johnnymmo
Garvon3 u havent played tsw have you? Tsw is no wow clone. Gw2 is more of a wow clone.

I have played it, actually.

People spout the same thing about LotRO, AoC, Rift, or whatever their favorite MMO is. "But it's sooOOOOooOOOOo different from WoW! WoW doesn't have rifts!"

TSW isn't a WoW clone. It doesn't even make any sense. Just because they're both themepark games does not mean one is a clone of the other.

Some of you seem to think every themepark game is a WoW clone. Not sure why you can't differentiate.

I wouldn't say GW2 is a WoW clone either and holy fuck can someone come up with a new cliche to use. Damn....

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Johnnymmo
Garvon3 u havent played tsw have you? Tsw is no wow clone. Gw2 is more of a wow clone.

I have played it, actually.

People spout the same thing about LotRO, AoC, Rift, or whatever their favorite MMO is. "But it's sooOOOOooOOOOo different from WoW! WoW doesn't have rifts!"

TSW isn't a WoW clone. It doesn't even make any sense. Just because they're both themepark games does not mean one is a clone of the other.

Some of you seem to think every themepark game is a WoW clone.

That's because they essentially are. Themepark is just a politically correct term for WoW clone.

Under the modern day classifications, DAoC and EQ would fall into themepark, yet they were almost nothing alike.

Meanwhile, LotRO and WoW and Rift all fall into the themepark category and are almost carbon copies of one another with 1-2 things slightly tweaked.

TSW borrows HEAVILY from WoW in almost all its features except a handful of its scripted quests. And even the quest SYSTEM is exactly like WoW's, it's just the quests themselves are written a little differently.

But no, go on, tell me how incredibly different all the themepark games are.

Meanwhile "sandbox games" like UO, SWG, and Eve, are absolutely NOTHING alike. Just because a game is in the same classification (even a classification as BS and false as themepark) doesn't mean that gives them an excuse to be unoriginal.

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

Originally posted by BadSpock

Well, since the closest thing GW2 has to "quests" is the personal story, based on what I've seen, GW2 personal story > TSW quests hands down.

TSW does have the top notch for voice acting and cinematics (better than TOR IMO) but yeah I think the actual game play portions of GW2 personal story > game play portions of TSW quests.

So, those millions of "kill x, fecth y, escort z" aren't quests?

As i've said, the presentation is aweome adn why i like DE, but i haven't done of them that had some mechanics or goals or anything that i haven't seen before.

Presentation is everything.

Don't have to go back to quest givers, don't have to pick them up, NEVER need to worry about if party members or friends are on the same step, no competition for tagging mobs/resources, no restrictions on group composition, no trinity roles required etc. etc.

Really changes everything.

Though the presentation for TSW is nice, great VO nice atmosphere and some interesting ideas, it just can't compete with that.

Still too closely resembles the EQ/WoW model.

GW2 has quests. Instead of players initiating the script all they did was automate the script, put some true or false statements in, and called them dynamic events.

My industry calls it rebranding. They are still selling the same thing but it looks different, or we hope the buying public thinks so.

All mmos are based off of core mechanics that are reskinned and presented in different ways.

No matter how many actors you get, Batman fighting the Joker is still going to be, Batman fighting the Joker.

If you can look past this fact then you will find your fun and enjoyment. If you cannot, then unfortunately nothing will ever live up to that first kick at the can.

Originally posted by TalulaRose

All WoW clones are based off of core mechanics that are reskinned and presented in different ways.

 

 

Fixed that up a bit for you.

Isn't it funny that WoW calls instancing "phasing" like its something new that no one has ever done?

Originally posted by Garvon3

That's because they essentially are. Themepark is just a politically correct term for WoW clone.

Under the modern day classifications, DAoC and EQ would fall into themepark, yet they were almost nothing alike.

Meanwhile, LotRO and WoW and Rift all fall into the themepark category and are almost carbon copies of one another with 1-2 things slightly tweaked.

TSW borrows HEAVILY from WoW in almost all its features except a handful of its scripted quests. And even the quest SYSTEM is exactly like WoW's, it's just the quests themselves are written a little differently.

But no, go on, tell me how incredibly different all the themepark games are.

Meanwhile "sandbox games" like UO, SWG, and Eve, are absolutely NOTHING alike. Just because a game is in the same classification (even a classification as BS and false as themepark) doesn't mean that gives them an excuse to be unoriginal.

 No it doesn't man. Did you even play the game?  The biggest features it has that were "borrowed from WoW" are scripted dungeons and quest markers/ designators. Which WoW borrowed from other games itself so it is rather moot.

The crafting isn't the same.

Progression isn't the same.

Faction design isn't the same.

Itemization isn't the same.

You could go on and on. Do they have some similar features? Yes...of course. They're both themeparks. Again, that does not make one a clone of another.

Hate the game all you want. No game is going to please everyone but this whole WoW clone bash is really getting silly at this point with the games it is being used to slight.

Originally posted by BadSpock

Originally posted by FredomSekerZ

Originally posted by BadSpock

Presentation is everything.

Don't have to go back to quest givers, don't have to pick them up, NEVER need to worry about if party members or friends are on the same step, no competition for tagging mobs/resources, no restrictions on group composition, no trinity roles required etc. etc.

Really changes everything.

Though the presentation for TSW is nice, great VO nice atmosphere and some interesting ideas, it just can't compete with that.

Still too closely resembles the EQ/WoW model.

You have the right to your opinion BadSpock. You view that way, i view different. Like i said, to me, the presentation, the lack of npc giver, etc is why i like Events, but in the end, the goal are still the same as every other mmo. Presentation is defenatly not everything. In fact TSW as presentation too, but in a different way. However, many of it's missions have riddle elements conncted to them to make them more interesting, and that doesn't include investigation missions. Also, as i've said, it doesn't count for all quests, i know, but it would be cool.

Both systems are different in their own way, but GW2 defenatly as quests and beyond the presentation, it resembles the EQ/WOW model in every single way. "Kill x,Fecth Y, Escort Z"

Originally posted by TalulaRose

GW2 has quests. Instead of players initiating the script all they did was automate the script, put some true or false statements in, and called them dynamic events.

My industry calls it rebranding. They are still selling the same thing but it looks different, or we hope the buying public thinks so.

All mmos are based off of core mechanics that are reskinned and presented in different ways.

No matter how many actors you get, Batman fighting the Joker is still going to be, Batman fighting the Joker.

If you can look past this fact then you will find your fun and enjoyment. If you cannot, then unfortunately nothing will ever live up to that first kick at the can.

 

 

it's a bit more than just what you described. The NPCs are not static, like in other games. They have routines. They walk around, talk to each other and perform differently based on the outcome of the DE. You can also follow the NPCs and see that DE doesn't just begin randomly, it starts with a certain trigger, either from a PC or an NPC.

But yea, they are essentially quests. When you boil it down, every game has you performing quests or missions. So are they all the same? No, it's the presentation that's important. TSW follows a more traditional presentation when it comes to quests. GW2 is trying something a bit different. TSW does have investigation quests, which are cool, but there's like 10 of them through out the whole game, while the rest are your basic kill and deliver quests.

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by Garvon3

That's because they essentially are. Themepark is just a politically correct term for WoW clone.

Under the modern day classifications, DAoC and EQ would fall into themepark, yet they were almost nothing alike.

Meanwhile, LotRO and WoW and Rift all fall into the themepark category and are almost carbon copies of one another with 1-2 things slightly tweaked.

TSW borrows HEAVILY from WoW in almost all its features except a handful of its scripted quests. And even the quest SYSTEM is exactly like WoW's, it's just the quests themselves are written a little differently.

But no, go on, tell me how incredibly different all the themepark games are.

Meanwhile "sandbox games" like UO, SWG, and Eve, are absolutely NOTHING alike. Just because a game is in the same classification (even a classification as BS and false as themepark) doesn't mean that gives them an excuse to be unoriginal.

 

You could go on and on. Do they have some similar features? Yes...of course. They're both themeparks. Again, that does not make one a clone of another.

Hooh boy... then tell me, how come games in the "sandbox" classification (many of which aren't even sandbox games, I've heard people call DAoC a sandbox, wtf?) are so totally different from one another? How come old "themepark" games are almost nothing alike?

Is it because they aren't actually themeparks? What are they?

Or is themepark just the blanket term for MMOs that get 90% of their features and design from WoW, and add in their own brand of spice to try to pass it off as something different?

Being a "themepark" doesn't give you a free pass to recycle the majority of your features.

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Garvon3

Originally posted by Wickedjelly

Originally posted by just1opinion

Originally posted by hellshanks

If you say "no" you haven't done an investigation quest, and had to pick out small details and actually figure something out, instead of "5 pigs... located over there? got it. I'll go kill those 5 pigs."

 

Sadly, they're not ALL investigation quests. If they were....now THAT would be something.

 Can't say I feel the same. They're fun in small doses but no thanks on just having those. Fuck that shit.

Well that's the problem with this game. It's almost entirely linear/solo oriented. Which means, the entire game rests on the back of the questing system. Which means, you need LOTS of quests, and they need to be padded to keep people subscribed longer. Which means... a lot of useless fetch quests. Now, if they had made the game social and open world like a proper MMO, and only had a handful of quests, and made them all really good, then maybe you could claim this game has the best quest system.

 

A lot of old MMO quests had you solving puzzles, writing things down, engaging in actual typed dialogue with NPCs, and, since the games weren't 100% quest focused, did this without watering them all down and padding them out.

It's kind of sad that 10 years later, the game with the "best quest system" is still playing catch up to games made by 15 people in a basement in the 90s.

Gonna repost this and remind everyone that an MMO doesn't become "good" by pretending to be a singleplayer game, because that is a battle it will NEVER win. That is why SWTOR is tanking.

Can you give some examples of these "old MMO's" that had puzzle quests, and a few examples of those quests ?

Quests arrived with EQ1 iirc. Before quests were in MMO's, you had to grind mobs to advance. Quests are just a faster way of giving players XP, and sometimes (fairly rarely) they even have interesting stories attached as a bonus. GW2 has simply shifted the "faster XP delivery" to DE's instead of quests. Presumably, there's still lore and story involved in the DE's.

When WOW launched, it was an EQ clone, but it was EQ on easy mode. It was also playable on almost any PC at the time. People loved it, and still do. Gone was the "forced grouping" from earlier MMO's, and that set the standard. All modern MMO's can be played in single-player mode all the way to level-cap with ease, and that includes TSW and GW2. Ranting about that will make no difference, the majority of players want optional grouping.

Any MMO that has it's main feature something that's singleplayer doesn't deserve the title of best MMO.

Who cares about questing when the skill animations are so poor and immersion breaking.  I've never understood how MMOs can get released without smooth and responsive combat (SWTOR) or solid animations (TSW and tons of other MMOs). 

For now it is.  Until GW2 hits next month.  Then, due to the mechanics of the questing, it will be better, for me at least.  I've come across far too many quests that bug out because tons of people have to click on everything they see, in TSW and it just ruins the experience completely.  That and I find I just don't care about challenge in quests and find TSW quests very challenging and most of the time I just scour the internet for the answers just so I can progress.  I'm more interested in deck building and getting SPs and APs then taking 2 or more hours to finish a quest.  

Not saying they should change the questing for me, as I know many folk like that type of challenge, heck my Dad is that type of puzzle solver, I just never was and never saw the appeal.  Hence, my love for GW2 and it's more free form fluid questing with no worry about not getting drops or not getting credit for kills since everyone who taps the mob or is in the area gets credit and we all get our own loot table.  Genius.

Still though, I'm glad these 2 games ARE changing the quest mechanic in this genre for the better.  Makes WoW hub questing, which I used to love, look archaic and amateur.

Originally posted by heartless. GW2 is trying something a bit different.

BS.  If you can call TSW missions standard, then GW2 questing is all PQs from Warhammer.  Because they really are.  The only difference is that's all you do for PvE with the exception of Rift Zone events.  It's a nice set up, but it's not different.  Especially if you're going to dismiss TSW set up.  Lets apply the same standard to both games shall we.  Yes we shall.

Originally posted by FrodoFragins

Who cares about questing when the skill animations are so poor and immersion breaking.  I've never understood how MMOs can get released without smooth and responsive combat (SWTOR) or solid animations (TSW and tons of other MMOs). 

Not everybody cares about combat. Well, i do actually, but i don't go into mmos expecting good combat system when FPS, Action, fighting, racing, etc games exist.