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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why the lack of space to roam?

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71 posts found
  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

7/04/12 6:54:57 PM#41
Originally posted by Irus
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Game Engine and Server issues.

This.

Empty space is nice, but expensive. Problem is, most games are land games which means they have to generate the entire space unless they want to apply some clever pseudo-generational technology, but that would feel weird.

EVE was able to handle this well because they deal with space. They can pretend they have a whole solar system when they just have a few tiny specks generated per player (i.e., grids). Applying the same idea to land is possible but causes potential problems because the amount of land will always be less than space.

I guess it kind of depends on how big you're talking, because WoW is pretty damn big. It just doesn't feel that way because all of the zone pockets, but it's still all one cohesive mass (each continent is, anyway). That game is almost eight years old, and I'm sure they could do biiger now. I'm just not sure what exactly people mean when they say big. Let's say they made a peice of land was about the size as both of WoW's main continents pushed together. If done correctly, designers could make pretty good use of that much space without it feeling small.

  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2140

7/04/12 7:13:12 PM#42
Originally posted by Irus
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Game Engine and Server issues.

This.

Empty space is nice, but expensive. Problem is, most games are land games which means they have to generate the entire space unless they want to apply some clever pseudo-generational technology, but that would feel weird.

EVE was able to handle this well because they deal with space. They can pretend they have a whole solar system when they just have a few tiny specks generated per player (i.e., grids). Applying the same idea to land is possible but causes potential problems because the amount of land will always be less than space.

 

It depends how the game engine is programed, there are engines that focus on big landmasses like VWorld and Grome.

Even if Dark&Light sucked and tanked that game world was huge, was around the size of Denmark, A chinese gaming studio bought the rights and now doing a remake, it looks sweet.

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  chryses

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/07
Posts: 1438

 
OP  7/04/12 9:53:06 PM#43

I think another game that had just enough balance of land vs missions was Vanguard.  I remember going off track in that game and finding new resources etc. 

I do feel that there is that sweet spot and the system should be akin to Elder Scrolls/Fallout. 

- If you unlock an area you can fast travel back by paying for it.

- Areas that are further out are a challenge to unlock and its hard to get to.

 

Guess the point I am trying to make is that I really really hate playing an MMO where I will be doing a mission in a 'remote' village and I can already see the next 3 mission hubs plonked just down the road. 

In Fallen Earth I actually felt like I accomplished something when I reached the next town/city.  Half the time I got side tracked harvesting as I travelled down the roads.  However I feel FE is on the extreme side and probably need a fast travel mechanic from the outset. (they have one now)

  Disdena

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/10
Posts: 1098

7/04/12 10:25:56 PM#44
Originally posted by blognorg
Originally posted by Disdena

There's a bit of a paradox there, though. You want to go somewhere most people don't go, and find something that most people would value.

In EQ, there was a small unmarked entrance in the south mountain wall of west Commonlands. If you happened to find it and duck inside, there was a huge multi-level dungeon full of undead. For people playing the first week after release, this was an awesome and terrifying find. But for the years and years that followed, it was common knowledge that Befallen is the low level dungeon off of Commonlands. Even though it was easy to miss, it was impossible to not know that it was there because of its importance. If you had zone chat on, you'd know what it was and where it was and all of its secrets by the time you were high enough level to go there. The same goes for most of EQ's dungeons, actually. Unmarked remote entrances but hardly secrets.

Information sharing makes what you're asking for very very difficult. If there's something worth finding, and if anyone's found it, you'll know about it shortly. In order for developers to make a world based around exploration and discovery, they would have to cater to a playerbase with a strong anti-spoiler culture. That's nonexistent in MMOs right now.

I tihnk that's where the importance of randomness comes in. If cool stuff wasn't always in the same place, or even at the same time, then it would allow it to be stumbled upon before hearing about it. It doesn't always have to be a giant cave, although you could just move the enterence to different locations every so often.

Ehhhh, randomness doesn't get around the problem that well. If cool stuff appears at random, then you already know what's going to be at that remote area before you explore it: random cool stuff. The same random cool stuff that you'd find along the beaten path. And if that remote area has different and better random stuff, then it wouldn't be an unexplored area... it would be a popular area.

Even if you have resource nodes disappear after gathering (so that the most unpopulated areas are most likely to have resources), that in itself makes gatherers far more likely to visit those remote locations. So then you're really not more likely to encounter fewer PCs or more resources.

How's that quotation go? "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as members." If the idea is that you get a special reward for going somewhere that others don't, then others are going to go there as well to get that reward. There's no escaping the paradox. It's fine to have a remote area that's worth visiting in a way that doesn't affect gameplay, like having nice music or a beautiful view, but that's only half of what the OP was asking for.

  Irus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/11/11
Posts: 780

7/04/12 10:34:34 PM#45
Originally posted by blognorg

I guess it kind of depends on how big you're talking, because WoW is pretty damn big.

Compared to the potential size of EVE, it's a joke.

However many solar systems EVE has, all 32 AU + wide...

  GTwander

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/09
Posts: 6125

LARPer Hunter

7/04/12 10:37:36 PM#46
Originally posted by MMOExposed

Game Engine and Server issues.

I just wanted to point out that if EU can do this with the Crytek engine, then anything is possible.

Quoted statement is bunk.

Writer / Musician / Game Designer

Now Playing: Skyrim, Wurm Online, Tropico 4
Waiting On: GW2, TSW, Archeage, The Rapture

  User Deleted
7/04/12 10:45:51 PM#47

You want a virtual world OP. they died in 2004. we still have some past and some in development. but don't expect themies to provide you with a virtual open world anytime soon. they have no ideas what that is.

 

  corpusc

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

7/04/12 10:59:05 PM#48

Darkfall and Vanguard are at the top for this kind of experience

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Axxar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/09/08
Posts: 1983

"See how I reward those who fail me!"

7/05/12 4:00:10 AM#49
Originally posted by Irus
Originally posted by blognorg

I guess it kind of depends on how big you're talking, because WoW is pretty damn big.

Compared to the potential size of EVE, it's a joke.

However many solar systems EVE has, all 32 AU + wide...

That's a pretty bad comparison. The vast majority of EvE's "size" consists of nothing. The rest is a smidgen of recycled objects here and there.

WoW is indeed big. It feels especially big in Northrend where the zones aren't as boxed in.

Currently playing: Divinity: Original Sin, FTL, Hearthstone and Skyrim.
Eagerly anticipating: Camelot Unchained, Elite: Dangerous, Legend of Grimrock 2 and Star Citizen.

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1629

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/05/12 7:48:50 AM#50
Originally posted by corpusc

Darkfall and Vanguard are at the top for this kind of experience

Darkfall is PVP and Vanguard had the same linear quest system I've seen in recent MMO's.  In fact, I quit Vanguard over it's quest breadcrumb trail.

  blognorg

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/25/11
Posts: 650

7/05/12 2:10:33 PM#51
Originally posted by Disdena
Originally posted by blognorg
Originally posted by Disdena

There's a bit of a paradox there, though. You want to go somewhere most people don't go, and find something that most people would value.

In EQ, there was a small unmarked entrance in the south mountain wall of west Commonlands. If you happened to find it and duck inside, there was a huge multi-level dungeon full of undead. For people playing the first week after release, this was an awesome and terrifying find. But for the years and years that followed, it was common knowledge that Befallen is the low level dungeon off of Commonlands. Even though it was easy to miss, it was impossible to not know that it was there because of its importance. If you had zone chat on, you'd know what it was and where it was and all of its secrets by the time you were high enough level to go there. The same goes for most of EQ's dungeons, actually. Unmarked remote entrances but hardly secrets.

Information sharing makes what you're asking for very very difficult. If there's something worth finding, and if anyone's found it, you'll know about it shortly. In order for developers to make a world based around exploration and discovery, they would have to cater to a playerbase with a strong anti-spoiler culture. That's nonexistent in MMOs right now.

I tihnk that's where the importance of randomness comes in. If cool stuff wasn't always in the same place, or even at the same time, then it would allow it to be stumbled upon before hearing about it. It doesn't always have to be a giant cave, although you could just move the enterence to different locations every so often.

Ehhhh, randomness doesn't get around the problem that well. If cool stuff appears at random, then you already know what's going to be at that remote area before you explore it: random cool stuff. The same random cool stuff that you'd find along the beaten path. And if that remote area has different and better random stuff, then it wouldn't be an unexplored area... it would be a popular area.

Even if you have resource nodes disappear after gathering (so that the most unpopulated areas are most likely to have resources), that in itself makes gatherers far more likely to visit those remote locations. So then you're really not more likely to encounter fewer PCs or more resources.

How's that quotation go? "I don't want to belong to any club that will accept people like me as members." If the idea is that you get a special reward for going somewhere that others don't, then others are going to go there as well to get that reward. There's no escaping the paradox. It's fine to have a remote area that's worth visiting in a way that doesn't affect gameplay, like having nice music or a beautiful view, but that's only half of what the OP was asking for.

No, random things aren't the grand answer, but it will mix up mundanity a little more. It really just depends on your game design. If there is no "beaten path", and random events weren't localized, then it would solve some of those problems. Also, it depends on how random you want the game to be. Sure, minor random things here and there won't solve much if the game design isn't changed. If the game is still zoned off everywhere with localized events, then I agree that won't really change that much. 

  ZoeMcCloskey

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 1123

INTJ, fun is fun except when it's not

7/05/12 2:13:22 PM#52

FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

7/05/12 2:22:23 PM#53
Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

  AticusWelles

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/30/12
Posts: 151

7/05/12 2:32:34 PM#54
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

 

Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

 

Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

 

I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

  ZoeMcCloskey

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 1123

INTJ, fun is fun except when it's not

7/05/12 3:28:23 PM#55
Originally posted by AticusWelles
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

 

Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

 

Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

 

I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

Agreed Aticus, well said.

This is a situation akin to artwork.  Some people can look at it and see more, but those people are more rare.  Most people look at it and say yeah whatever and cannot look past the surface.  Don't assume we are all motivated by the same things nariusseldon, thats all i can really say.  Some of us do want a virtual world that feels alive, some of us do want to meet new people and make more friends and some of us do want more than just min/max must feel like we are winnnnnning out of a "game".

Note I am not saying anyone is "better" than anyone else based on any of this, just saying we are all different.  The thing I enjoyed most about FE was that it felt more alive than any MMO I've played in a very long time, since Eve Online or original SWG.  But FE on top of that had a very friendly community with a lot of mature players who could carry on conversations on more subjects than epeen or chuck norris. :P

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19537

7/05/12 3:30:50 PM#56
Originally posted by AticusWelles
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

 

Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

 

Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

 

I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

Why is it a "problem"? Devs should be sensitive to what their audience wants. It is their JOB to entertain their audience.

Virtual world is a by-gone era for a good reason. If the world itself is the crucial part, it won't be "by-gone". It is as silly as to wish back the era where horse carriage is the prime mode of transportation.

 

  ZoeMcCloskey

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 1123

INTJ, fun is fun except when it's not

7/05/12 3:33:13 PM#57

As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

  chryses

Novice Member

Joined: 5/29/07
Posts: 1438

 
OP  7/05/12 7:26:35 PM#58
Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

I am totally with Zoe on this.  I am one of those players that does take time out to view the sunsets and scenary.  Most of my friends are the same but interestingly, we are all older gamers and grew up with table top / pen and paper RPG.

There is a question here about success. I played and subbed to FE for 12 months.  Its my second longest (albeit far behind EVE) MMO to date. 

I actually feel FE needed housing in some form as the crafting system and world attracted players who got into that sort of thing. Alternatively have an EVE system where guilds can actually over take bunkers and surrounding land...anyway...

Playing games like FE give an incredible realism to the world and there is great satisfaction going off track and finding rich nodes.  I found a couple of amazing spots and felt like a kid in a toy store as no other players ever turned up.

 

 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12141

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

7/06/12 5:31:37 AM#59
Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

As I said you don't get it and you probably never will get it :)

But let me ask you this, if FE had been successful as it was and had a nice small niche playerbase who stuck to it and enjoyed it.  Would you want to come rain all over the parade and call it stupid or would you be able to live and let live?

You and narius obviously aren't having the same conversation at this point. He said game developers create what their audience wants. You seem to have read "I don't like it, so it's stupid."

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1629

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

7/06/12 7:51:29 AM#60
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by AticusWelles
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by ZoeMcCloskey

FE was great for this and had such great ambience and environments.  Also was nice that not every single square inch of everywhere was stuffed full of mobs.  You could take a timeout and watch the sunset or sunrise if you wanted or just climb up on a mountain and actually just enjoy the scenery.  I miss FE, haven't been able to get myself to try it since it went f2p because I fear the community probably has changed :/   Early on it was amazing, so many friendly people and devs on talking and helping too, ah well.

I don't think most players want to enjoy the scenary in a GAME. If i want to watch the sunset, i can just go out to my backyard.

FE is not very successful precisely because it is not in-tuned with what the market wants. And community changes all the time. It is not like we cannot make new friends.

I never play a game for the community. I can always bring my own friends, or make new ones. A game is either fun or not. People are just people.

And there's the crux of the problem.  Virtual world MMORPGs were invaded by gamers, and game developers.  Game developers have no clue how to make a virtual world, and game players don't want one.

 

Virtual world developers, and virtual world players for the most part are remanents of a bygone era.

 

Though hopefully EQ Next, Archeage etc can bring some of the magic back to the VIrtual World MMORPG genre.

 

I remember right before WoW came out Blizzard talked about how they didn't give two shits about virtual worlds and were creating a game world for WoW (It showed in the game's design), they were on the money for what the mainstream wanted in an MMORPG, it's just a pity they had to shit all over virtual worlds to do it.

Why is it a "problem"? Devs should be sensitive to what their audience wants. It is their JOB to entertain their audience.

Virtual world is a by-gone era for a good reason. If the world itself is the crucial part, it won't be "by-gone". It is as silly as to wish back the era where horse carriage is the prime mode of transportation.

 

Devs aren't being sensitive to player wants, this is why all of these huge AAA wow-clone titles are splashing and crashing all around.  The "splash" is the big hype and mega box sales.  The "crash" is servers dieing off within 6 months of release.

I wonder if devs are being sensitive to their shareholders, and we players are stuck holding the bag with games that have short term interest, but full term retail prices.

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